General Brexit discussion thread

[Scott777]

my point is that the leave side have used classic techniques of dictator's throughout history.



The balance between executive and Parliament is set up precisely to try and prevent this. It is not parliaments job to runner stamp the executive's polices.  It's the executive's job to craft policies that pass Parliament.



The current executive has attempted to bypass Parliament (eg unlawful proguation) and delegitimize the judiciary. Both of which are dictator's tactics.



This is in contrast to the MPs duty to act in the best interests of their constituents.

This is nothing to do with what we were discussing.  You said sovereignty is where MPs can do whatever they want, as long as they think it's best for us.  So what's your problem with the "leave side"?  Or with Tories?  Or with dictators?  Or with Hitler?  Indeed, as Cromwell has just complained, you are using diversion.

[cromwell]

No, but all those MPs are.cotong against their constituents by your definition.



But let's put that aside for a moment.



What is the instruction the referendum gave the MPs?



The referendum merely said "leave" and nothing else.  That's like saying "leave" the house.  Do you get dressed?  Take you wallet and phone? Do you leave by the front or back door? Where do you go?







None of those.things were specified by the referendum.



Maybe we should hold a

No let's not put it aside whilst you divert what I posted is clear enough,you want to dispute that?

[Borg Refinery]

Im not calling for the 2014 referendum to be re run. Although there was a lot of underhand dodgy dealings and lies told , as there was in 2016 , we lost , and i respect the result.



Further the winners , despite underhand dodgy dealings to win , claimed their prize and scotland has been forced to remain in the uk, these past five years.



Im now calling for a NEW scottish indy referendum in light of the change of circumstances , which the snp were elected on by a triple lock. Those change of circumstances are we were told in 2014 to vote to stay in the uk to stay in the eu. This is obviously now changed , so we must hold a new referendum in light of scotlands 62% remain vote to see if we want to stay in brexit uk or become indy and rejoin the eu.

And that is a fair position.

You and your fellow anglo remainers however , are taking a position contrary to my democratic beliefs.

What part of 'false assumptions' did you miss?  :fcplm:

You can have as many brexit referendums as you like. I have no problem with the voice of the people being heard on a regular basis.



However each time , the result must be implemented to satisfy democracy.

Wat? Your position is insanely contradictory.

You simply want a re run , despite losing a referendum and three elections over four years to brexiters , because you lost. That isnt democracy , that is simply petulance and being a bad loser.

Rubbish. If the referendum had been fair I'd accept the result whatever it was.



And it's complete untrue rubbish you write in general in your post - I would gladly have accepted a good Brexit deal negotiated by either May or Boris. That has simply not happened - and Leavers clearly voted on a Brexit with a deal; NDBrexit is an anti-referendum, anti-democratic false choice that's been put out there by billionaires and the far right.



And you've been suckered by it and taken their medicine.

Nothing was mentioned by english remainers about scotland being shafted in 2014 until now when it has become expedient for you to mention it so you can get out support in another brexit ref. And another and another if you lose these also.

^ More rubbish. Trying to conflate all English people together as a whole, even folks who didn't vote remain. I mean it's funny but kind of cognitively dissonant as an argument.

So no , you and i are light years apart.



Take your medicine mate and stop bleating about losing in 2016.



It is  an anti democratic disgrace how english remianers and the anglo establishment are behaving. IF you overturn this referendum against the will of the english people , i hope and pray you reap what you sow.

As will you... because you are reflecting your own (much more hypocritical) beliefs in the mirror pal.

[Thomas]

See, this where your stance on Brexit just continuously confounds me. You have now long-criticised those who you see as blocking Brexit, calling them undemocratic, but yet you rejected the previous Withdrawal Agreement and now reject the revised one. It seems that you are just as much an obstructionist to Brexit as anyone else, so why criticise others for it?



You reject this deal on the basis that it is bad for Scotland — yet seemingly you take that stance in obliviousness to the fact that a No Deal arrangement is also bad for Scotland, and probably worse. A No Deal arrangement won't vitiate or obviate the need to address the border in Ireland because, once again, that little niggling creature called Logical Reality leads us to that outcome.  The current pro-Brexit government know this, and that's why despite all BoJo's previous bluster of tails wagging dogs on the NI issue — the special dispensation for Northern Ireland is still there.  So — No Deal doesn't change the fact that in the subsequent inevitable trade negotiations with the EU, the Irish border would remain a stumbling block to deals and eventually dispensation would have to be made.  



In essence Thomas, by opposing the Deal and yet still resolutely calling those who fight against Brexit undemocratic, then you are invariably advocating No Deal.  I don't see how your stance actually works in Scotland's favour.  If you continued to be a Remainer, or alternatively you advocated the Deal on a pragmatic basis, your stated convictions on this would make more sense. But I am struggling to see the sense of your stance at all.



As for my opinions on the Withdrawal Agreement — I don't support it because it is objectively one of the most self-defeating agreements that any highly developed country will have voluntarily signed in modern times. Having said that, I continue to tell Brexiters that if they want a deal — this is going to be the only way.

Im out of time for the minute but will deal with this latest pile of your urine later.

[Thomas]

The British people, including British subjects not resident on the Island of Britain ARE LEAVING the EU directly, or by association....and therefore, Brexit is a satisfactory description. However, your criticism of the title is just ridiculous....because whatever the tag given to the action of the UK leaving the EU is absolutely irrelevant..the important element IS the leaving the EU, and if you wish to call it UKEXIT, then go ahead if it makes you feel better... there is NO particular importance attached to the title of the acronym associated with the UK leaving the EU, as it has no formal status.

...but stevlin , neither the uk nor all british subjects are leaving the eu.

Indeed..... high time now that we were shut of the EU.

Theres no we stevlin. You dont speak for me .

So what?...anyway, don't forget Wales!!

i didnt. Thats why i mentioned the word principality , the uk governments own description of wales.

.Tough titty ---it is the UK that joined the EU, and democratically voted to leave, and it is the UK that will leave, despite your constant bleating!!

im mentioning fact stevlin , something that often eludes you in your error prone rants. The northern irish part of the uk isnt leaving the eu , or havent you noticed that yet?



So despite the uk joining the eu as you constantly bleat , the uk wont be leaving merely a part of it. :roll:

Probably more so than YOU Thomas....as I'm very pleased that we are leaving!!

 :: So you have been telling me for the last 4 years or so stevlin.



Yet here we are , countless exit dates torn asunder  , northern ireland remaining  , and here and now despite the fact you promised me you would be dragging us out by halloween , the day after bonfire night we are still in the eu.



You really are a let down with all these empty promises stevlin. ::

[Thomas]

So if you don't support the WA, that leaves "No deal", which will also drag Scotland out, on even worse terms, or remain which will keep Scotland in the EU?



So No-deal or remain?

No deal.



The referendum result must be implemented .



Brexit has been the gift that keeps giving these past 4 years. We explained to our fellow scots the issue with this undemocratic uk is that we will no matter what always be at the mercy of englands electorate.



When we voted no in 2014 , the scots people allowed westminster to do as they pleased with us ,and brexit is one part of that.



Our only chance now is to hold another indyref , and try and escape the uk , if not , we go along with what england forces  on us as part of the anti democratic nature of this disgusting union.



I have no wish for england to drag us out the eu , but similarly , i am not hypocritical enough to try and force england to remain against the wishes of the english people.



This highlights why this disunited kingdom cannot continue.

[Thomas]

In my humble opinion and with the utmost of respect; you rightly compared the Brexit ref to scot indyref and said both were corrupt..again I 100% concur. Why not rerun both, and reform the electoral commission first...and everyone gets what they want? Win-win consensual politics; which is exactly what the EU is about in the first place.

Im not calling for the 2014 referendum to be re run. Although there was a lot of underhand dodgy dealings and lies told , as there was in 2016 , we lost , and i respect the result.



Further the winners , despite underhand dodgy dealings to win , claimed their prize and scotland has been forced to remain in the uk, these past five years.



Im now calling for a NEW scottish indy referendum in light of the change of circumstances , which the snp were elected on by a triple lock. Those change of circumstances are we were told in 2014 to vote to stay in the uk to stay in the eu. This is obviously now changed , so we must hold a new referendum in light of scotlands 62% remain vote to see if we want to stay in brexit uk or become indy and rejoin the eu.



You and your fellow anglo remainers however , are taking a position contrary to my democratic beliefs.



You can have as many brexit referendums as you like. I have no problem with the voice of the people being heard on a regular basis.



However each time , the result must be implemented to satisfy democracy.



You simply want a re run , despite losing a referendum and three elections over four years to brexiters , because you lost. That isnt democracy , that is simply petulance and being a bad loser.



Nothing was mentioned by english remainers about scotland being shafted in 2014 until now when it has become expedient for you to mention it so you can get out support in another brexit ref. And another and another if you lose these also.



So no , you and i are light years apart.



Take your medicine mate and stop bleating about losing in 2016.



It is  an anti democratic disgrace how english remianers and the anglo establishment are behaving. IF you overturn this referendum against the will of the english people , i hope and pray you reap what you sow.

[BeElBeeBub]

And your point is?  That dictators claiming they know what's best for people is how sovereignty and democracy is supposed to work?

my point is that the leave side have used classic techniques of dictator's throughout history.



The balance between executive and Parliament is set up precisely to try and prevent this. It is not parliaments job to runner stamp the executive's polices.  It's the executive's job to craft policies that pass Parliament.



The current executive has attempted to bypass Parliament (eg unlawful proguation) and delegitimize the judiciary. Both of which are dictator's tactics.



This is in contrast to the MPs duty to act in the best interests of their constituents.

[BeElBeeBub]

i posted this





Do you have some difficulty in understanding that?

No, but all those MPs are.cotong against their constituents by your definition.



But let's put that aside for a moment.



What is the instruction the referendum gave the MPs?



The referendum merely said "leave" and nothing else.  That's like saying "leave" the house.  Do you get dressed?  Take you wallet and phone? Do you leave by the front or back door? Where do you go?







None of those.things were specified by the referendum.



Maybe we should hold a

[T00ts]

I am confused. How can anyone say that an MP should or could represent whichever majority was presented in their constituency? Surely at the outset it was not a party political vote. Parliament abdicated their position and gave it to the electorate, when the vote came in they continued that and voted for A50. It wasn't a Labour Brexit or Conservative or anything else.

My thinking tells me that this was not party but a united Westminster that having received the electorate's majority decision had an obligation to fulfil it. Surely it has been only since then that they have split and taken various party and individual positions with the simple ambition to gain power and thwart the will of us. They are the ones who have been inconsistent and in doing so have given credence to the lie that there was some way of making winners losers and losers winners until everyone got so confused that nothing was done at all.

[cromwell]

So Ian Duncan Smith, Liam Fox, John Redwood, Kate Hoey, Gisela Stuart,  Chris Grayling, Graham Brady, Dominic Rabb to name but a a few should all be supporting remain?....🤔



As I keep pointing out the referendum merely gave the opinion (narrow) that the UK should leave the EU. It was absolutely silent on how or when.  In the absence of such an instruction MPs have to use their judgement as to how and when or even if at all (and face the voters at the next election).

 i posted this

No but when a referendum is held and the majority in their constituency vote one way or another they should support that either way

Do you have some difficulty in understanding that?

[Scott777]

Show me a dictator who didn't rule because of "the will of the people".

And your point is?  That dictators claiming they know what's best for people is how sovereignty and democracy is supposed to work?

[BeElBeeBub]

Either you are lying, or you're as naive as a 5 year-old.  Dictators often insist they are doing what is best for the people.

. And the current mantra of both the Tory and BXP is "the will of the people"......



Just about the most dicator slogan you can do....



Show me a dictator who didn't rule because of "the will of the people".



Using a referendum to circumvent constitutional processes is a classic dictator trick. So much so that some countries where that led to very bad things have banned referendums.

 The people don't usually agree.  It tends to end in bloodshed, but you seem to have learnt sweet FA about history.

. You don't speak for "the people".  Leavers have threatened violence repeatedly and nothing has happened.  



You can't even be bothered to get off your behinds to march.



The worst violence comes from the tanked up football hooligans throwing Nazi salutes outside Wetherspoons. Funny how they all seem to be leavers....

[BeElBeeBub]

No but when a referendum is held and the majority in their constituency vote one way or another they should support that either way,instead many just said they would and are confirmed liars.

So Ian Duncan Smith, Liam Fox, John Redwood, Kate Hoey, Gisela Stuart,  Chris Grayling, Graham Brady, Dominic Rabb to name but a a few should all be supporting remain?....🤔



As I keep pointing out the referendum merely gave the opinion (narrow) that the UK should leave the EU. It was absolutely silent on how or when.  In the absence of such an instruction MPs have to use their judgement as to how and when or even if at all (and face the voters at the next election).

[Scott777]

No but when a referendum is held and the majority in their constituency vote one way or another they should support that either way,instead many just said they would and are confirmed liars.

Beelzebub is stuck on the multitude of ways to interpret everything, to the point that words mean nothing.