General Brexit discussion thread

[Scott777]

In short, yes.



I don't have to be happy with their decisions (I'm often not) and (as my other thread shows) I would love for there to be a better way of organising Parliament and representation.



But I do understand that any MP must use their own judgement to interpret what is in their constituents best interests.



You haven't yet been able to show a mechanism which means an MP doesn't have to use their judgement.



Do they poll their constituents every single vote?

Either you are lying, or you're as naive as a 5 year-old.  Dictators often insist they are doing what is best for the people.  The people don't usually agree.  It tends to end in bloodshed, but you seem to have learnt sweet FA about history.

[Stevlin]

Let me help you too stevlin , the way i have helped our anglo friend in dublin.



It isnt a british exit stevlin. Britain the island didnt vote in the 2016 brexit referendum , the united kingdom , of which britian is merely an island that is part of , and gibraltar voted , gibraltar as you know isnt in britian or the uk.9

The British people, including British subjects not resident on the Island of Britain ARE LEAVING the EU directly, or by association....and therefore, Brexit is a satisfactory description. However, your criticism of the title is just ridiculous....because whatever the tag given to the action of the UK leaving the EU is absolutely irrelevant..the important element IS the leaving the EU, and if you wish to call it UKEXIT, then go ahead if it makes you feel better... there is NO particular importance attached to the title of the acronym associated with the UK leaving the EU, as it has no formal status.

So for clarification and simplicity lets call it a uk and g exit shall we?

Lol - as usual, it is yourself that is yourself that is in dire need of help. So, no,  let's not....Brexit is fine as far as I am concerned.

Now for nearly two years yet again across two forums you have been telling me the same thing , the uk and g voted , the uk and g will be leaving.

Indeed..... high time  now that we were shut of the EU.

Yet as we both know and have discussed , thats now two uk prime ministers and two WA that have attamtped to sell northern ireland , and uk unity with it , not to mention your claim , down the river.

See above.



So the uk and g wont be leaving if johnson gets his WA through , it will be two countries , yours and mine , a principality , and an overseas territory. ( potentially) So what?...anyway, don't forget Wales!! - even if they are a Principality....



We will be fighting to stop you taking us out , and if you manage that , then we will be fighting you to keep us in your union and to rejoin the eu.Tough titty ---it is the UK that joined the EU, and democratically voted to leave, and it is the UK that will leave, despite your constant bleating!!

So hope you are buckled in for the long haul stevlin. :hattip

Probably more so than YOU Thomas....as I'm very pleased that we are leaving!!

[cromwell]

In short, yes.



I don't have to be happy with their decisions (I'm often not) and (as my other thread shows) I would love for there to be a better way of organising Parliament and representation.



But I do understand that any MP must use their own judgement to interpret what is in their constituents best interests.



You haven't yet been able to show a mechanism which means an MP doesn't have to use their judgement.



Do they poll their constituents every single vote?

No but when a referendum is held and the majority in their constituency vote one way or another they should support that either way,instead many just said they would and are confirmed liars.

[Conchúr]

No.



I dont believe in the united kingdom as you know , i want  scotland out of it , scotland voted to remain in the eu , and therefore a foreign government in another country in the city of london negotiating a deal on which scotland had no say , why would i support it?



If the english want to leave the eu and support johnsons WA , then they must leave under those terms .



If the northern irish like it , good luck to them.



Its a bad deal for scotland , and i dont support it for scotland. Scotland voted remain and its democratic vote must be respected , as must england and wales to leave.



Do you support it?

See, this where your stance on Brexit just continuously confounds me. You have now long-criticised those who you see as blocking Brexit, calling them undemocratic, but yet you rejected the previous Withdrawal Agreement and now reject the revised one. It seems that you are just as much an obstructionist to Brexit as anyone else, so why criticise others for it?



You reject this deal on the basis that it is bad for Scotland — yet seemingly you take that stance in obliviousness to the fact that a No Deal arrangement is also bad for Scotland, and probably worse. A No Deal arrangement won't vitiate or obviate the need to address the border in Ireland because, once again, that little niggling creature called Logical Reality leads us to that outcome.  The current pro-Brexit government know this, and that's why despite all BoJo's previous bluster of tails wagging dogs on the NI issue — the special dispensation for Northern Ireland is still there.  So — No Deal doesn't change the fact that in the subsequent inevitable trade negotiations with the EU, the Irish border would remain a stumbling block to deals and eventually dispensation would have to be made.  



In essence Thomas, by opposing the Deal and yet still resolutely calling those who fight against Brexit undemocratic, then you are invariably advocating No Deal.  I don't see how your stance actually works in Scotland's favour.  If you continued to be a Remainer, or alternatively you advocated the Deal on a pragmatic basis, your stated convictions on this would make more sense. But I am struggling to see the sense of your stance at all.



As for my opinions on the Withdrawal Agreement — I don't support it because it is objectively one of the most self-defeating agreements that any highly developed country will have voluntarily signed in modern times. Having said that, I continue to tell Brexiters that if they want a deal — this is going to be the only way.

[BeElBeeBub]

No.



I dont believe in the united kingdom as you know , i want  scotland out of it , scotland voted to remain in the eu , and therefore a foreign government in another country in the city of london negotiating a deal on which scotland had no say , why would i support it?



If the english want to leave the eu and support johnsons WA , then they must leave under those terms .



If the northern irish like it , good luck to them.



Its a bad deal for scotland , and i dont support it for scotland. Scotland voted remain and its democratic vote must be respected , as must england and wales to leave.



Do you support it?

So if you don't support the WA, that leaves "No deal", which will also drag Scotland out, on even worse terms, or remain which will keep Scotland in the EU?



So No-deal or remain?

[BeElBeeBub]

No problem, so given that there are so many interpretations of what you actually want, it will be okay for your MP to do whatever he/she wants, and that fits with parliamentary sovereignty and representative democracy, so we're all happy.  I'm so glad we cleared that up.

In short, yes.



I don't have to be happy with their decisions (I'm often not) and (as my other thread shows) I would love for there to be a better way of organising Parliament and representation.



But I do understand that any MP must use their own judgement to interpret what is in their constituents best interests.



You haven't yet been able to show a mechanism which means an MP doesn't have to use their judgement.



Do they poll their constituents every single vote?

[Sheepy]

Nobody gets to win,you arse.Only the EU and its regional parliaments.

[Borg Refinery]

Excellent Thomas. Then we are in agreement.



Really no need for us to 'fight' when we essentially agree and FWIW I completely respect your position as regards Wales and England leaving.



In my humble opinion and with the utmost of respect; you rightly compared the Brexit ref to scot indyref and said both were corrupt..again I 100% concur. Why not rerun both, and reform the electoral commission first...and everyone gets what they want? Win-win consensual politics; which is exactly what the EU is about in the first place.

[Thomas]

Well Thomas it does become somewhat difficult to represent your position accurately when you offer roundabout answers to simple questions. Let me try again, in Yes or No form: are you in support of the current deal?

No.



I dont believe in the united kingdom as you know , i want  scotland out of it , scotland voted to remain in the eu , and therefore a foreign government in another country in the city of london negotiating a deal on which scotland had no say , why would i support it?



If the english want to leave the eu and support johnsons WA , then they must leave under those terms .



If the northern irish like it , good luck to them.



Its a bad deal for scotland , and i dont support it for scotland. Scotland voted remain and its democratic vote must be respected , as must england and wales to leave.



Do you support it?

[Conchúr]

Im intrigued conor , not just by your inability to read , but you and your fellow anglo remainers constantly trying your level best at every opportunity to misrepresent my position.



Did you miss the bit on my last two posts on this thread where i said and i quote....







and this...



 



or earlier posts where i said...



?



 :hattip  :-?



So im not sure why you are misrepresenting what i am saying  conor , when my position for nearly four years now , is extremely clear and concise across two forums you and i have participated in.



Thats position is the referendum of 2016 must be respected , scotland and northern ireland must remain , and england and wales must leave.



If that cant be the case , then if england is determined to drag scotland and northern ireland with it , there must be two further referendums , one in scotland and a border pol in northern ireland to see if we agree with the uk continuing.



You know all this , we discussed it at great length , where you argued passionately but failed to convince me or anyone else there couldnt be a border poll in northern ireland , and i also reminded you of the fake new/propaganda/ lies , call it what you want that helped win the unionist side in 2014 when they told us we had to vote to stay in the uk to stay in the eu , knowing how pro european scotland is.



So apart from your usual inventing straw men to attack , not sure what it is that you are finding greatly difficult with my stance?

Well Thomas it does become somewhat difficult to represent your position accurately when you offer roundabout answers to simple questions. Let me try again, in Yes or No form: are you in support of the current deal?

[Thomas]

Lol --- but it isn't an 'English' Brexit Thomas, ( still struggling to master that concept I notice) - it is a British exit....that means that Scotland will be leaving too, along with the rest of the UK.....unless the Remainer Parliament manage to thwart the whole thing of course - and they ARE doing their damndest to achieve that end.)

Let me help you too stevlin , the way i have helped our anglo friend in dublin.



It isnt a british exit stevlin. Britain the island didnt vote in the 2016 brexit referendum , the united kingdom , of which britian is merely an island that is part of , and gibraltar voted , gibraltar as you know isnt in britian or the uk.



So for clarification and simplicity lets call it a uk and g exit shall we?



Now for nearly two years yet again across two forums you have been telling me the same thing , the uk and g voted , the uk and g will be leaving.



Yet as we both know and have discussed , thats now two uk prime ministers and two WA that have attamtped to sell northern ireland , and uk unity with it , not to mention your claim , down the river.



So the uk and g wont be leaving if johnson gets his WA through , it will be two countries , yours and mine , a principality , and an overseas territory. ( potentially)



We will be fighting to stop you taking us out , and if you manage that , then we will be fighting you to keep us in your union and to rejoin the eu.



So hope you are buckled in for the long haul stevlin. :hattip

[Thomas]

I'm intrigued Thomas. Given that the thing which I told you was an inevitable component of any deal and which you told me was unacceptable to Scotland has now come to pass in terms of political will (i.e. special dispensation being made for Northern Ireland), do you still support Brexit even though its latest guise involves treating Northern Ireland differently?  



Or in less words, do you support this Brexit deal which effectively discriminates against Scottish interests versus those of  Northern Ireland?

Im intrigued conor , not just by your inability to read , but you and your fellow anglo remainers constantly trying your level best at every opportunity to misrepresent my position.



Did you miss the bit on my last two posts on this thread where i said and i quote....

I support englands brexit old fruit .

and this...

, but behind the scenes i can assure you every single member of the grassroots is agreeing with englands brexit.

or earlier posts where i said...

The will of the english people must be enacted ,

?



 :hattip  :-?



So im not sure why you are misrepresenting what i am saying  conor , when my position for nearly four years now , is extremely clear and concise across two forums you and i have participated in.



Thats position is the referendum of 2016 must be respected , scotland and northern ireland must remain , and england and wales must leave.



If that cant be the case , then if england is determined to drag scotland and northern ireland with it , there must be two further referendums , one in scotland and a border pol in northern ireland to see if we agree with the uk continuing.



You know all this , we discussed it at great length , where you argued passionately but failed to convince me or anyone else there couldnt be a border poll in northern ireland , and i also reminded you of the fake new/propaganda/ lies , call it what you want that helped win the unionist side in 2014 when they told us we had to vote to stay in the uk to stay in the eu , knowing how pro european scotland is.



So apart from your usual inventing straw men to attack , not sure what it is that you are finding greatly difficult with my stance?

[Conchúr]

it might help old fruit if you start off by mastering the quote tags so we can see who you are addressing your post to instead of guessing.



I dont care if you voted remain or leave , nor do i care if you support the union or not.



If you dont live in scotland , you dont have a say on scottish indy. So its meaningless outside of the confines of debate on this forum if you say you support scottish indy. so what?



I support englands brexit old fruit . So put that in your pipe and smoke it . :hattip



As for the rest , i have answered your posts and points adequately , so if you have something usefull or interesting to say , fire away. lets debate.

I'm intrigued Thomas. Given that the thing which I told you was an inevitable component of any deal and which you told me was unacceptable to Scotland has now come to pass in terms of political will (i.e. special dispensation being made for Northern Ireland), do you still support Brexit even though its latest guise involves treating Northern Ireland differently?  



Or in less words, do you support this Brexit deal which effectively discriminates against Scottish interests versus those of  Northern Ireland?

[Stevlin]

The SNP might be getting yer wee hopes up of stopping brexit , but behind the scenes i can assure you every single member of the grassroots is agreeing with englands brexit.

Lol --- but it isn't an 'English' Brexit Thomas, ( still struggling to master that concept I notice) - it is a British exit....that means that Scotland will be leaving too, along with the rest of the UK.....unless the Remainer Parliament manage to thwart the whole thing of course - and they ARE doing their damndest to achieve that end.)

[Thomas]

No quote needed, cos it was a reply to all 3 of you at once (you, scott and cromwell).



You can support England's Brexit all you like, when it happens I expect it will destitute Scotland pretty badly and the reality will hit home. You are simply going to suffer despite whether you want indy or not.



All the progress the SNP made (which is considerable) will be erased and you will suffer for it. It's turkeys wishing for xmas, or the more colourful analogy Peter Wishart used in the commons!

 ::

Therefore, it is in YOUR interests to work within the confines of a corrupt system.(for now; temporarily) to help us stop Brexit, get in a coalition and ibvoke scot indyref2.

The SNP might be getting yer wee hopes up of stopping brexit , but behind the scenes i can assure you every single member of the grassroots is agreeing with englands brexit.