General Brexit discussion thread

[Thomas]

Correct, that's exactly what I'm saying.

Well twos up , thats exactly what im saying.

The problem as you've observed is that our parties can't get the country standing on its own two feet.

your country isnt my country , and im no more interested than wether fine gael can get ireland on its feet , the republicans america , or la republique en marche can in france.

What's wrong with seeking help from your friends?

your no friend of mine.



As a democrat i think england should be allowed to leave the eu as it democratically voted to.

I see no issue here whatsoever, and it should be reciprocal, there ought to be no guilt attached to asking for help when you need it..and you can clearly see we need it desperately and as soon as possible.

Well when i read some patronising shyster in englandshire tell me scotland exists to save england from itself , i tend to laugh my head off. :roll:

[BeElBeeBub]

I'm still asking what you want, otherwise how could your MP represent you?  So you don't want 10 immigrants in your home?  Euro?  Would you like treaties changed for military alignment?  Would you like a free bag of bananas delivered to your home, with "best wishes" handwritten by Juncker on a note?



I doesn't matter what I voted for, does it?  MPs only have to do what is in my interest, right?   :-?

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make?



I've defined the leave deal as I believe was promised and would be acceptable to me.



No I don't want 10 immigrants in my home which luckily for me isn't a policy of any UK or EU political movement.



You also seem to have a very distorted idea of my arguments about parliamentry sovereignty.



I am not surprised, to tilt at imaginary policies of your opponent is a very common trait amongst brexiters.



If the EU actually was as represented by Brexiters I would be happily campaigning against it.it's just that I have looked long and hard at the EU and found that it doesn't resemble the institution brexiters paint.

[Borg Refinery]

It's not strictly true that we voted fairly & freely for Brexit.



Both sides cheated heinously, and employed many illegal tactics to push their political dogmas on the public. It's likely a 2nd ref would be exactly the same whilst the electoral commission is a toothless fine-disher-outer with no real power; the LD 'revoke' strategy is wholly anti-democratic...and the ND kamikazes are equally as bad.



That leaves us with getting a good deal, with Bozo determined to bring back the most unsupportable deals possible, in ordee to FORCE a NDB on us; which NO-ONe voted for in England or elsewhere.



The leave campaigns clearly campaigned for a good deal in the referendum; all of them... Leave.Eu,Vote Leave, G.O etc. No it is not the English's will to have a no deal Brexit, that is incorrect.

[Borg Refinery]

Correct, that's exactly what I'm saying.



The problem as you've observed is that our parties can't get the country standing on its own two feet.



What's wrong with seeking help from your friends? I see no issue here whatsoever, and it should be reciprocal, there ought to be no guilt attached to asking for help when you need it..and you can clearly see we need it desperately and as soon as possible.

[Thomas]

I kind of wish Sturgeon would start a UK wide party to inject some common sense into our politics as well.



(I'm sure the jeers will ring out in abundance)



The fact is, a coalition of Lab SNP and the idiotic Swinson LDs is probably going to be the only way of solving the inevitable troubles the GE will throw up (sic). I'm hoping that our parties come to their senses, LOOK at how things are done by consensus in the Europarl and other more sensible countries, and decide to try and change things for the better.



Frankly, the Cons are a lost cause, folks on the Con benches can only do any good through defection..that's their only route out of being in the wrong 10 times out of 10.

so you want scotland to hold your hand and save england from itself is what you are saying? :-?



England is a great country , full of mainly great people and i have every faith in you standing up without daddy scotland holding your hand.



No i dont agree with you at all.



I would love there to be a coalition with the snp in it at westminster , but reality says this isnt going to happen. The price will be another scottish indy ref , and that price is too high for labour and liberals to pay.



Further swinson has said she wont put corbyn in 10 downing street in any way , so that would take some back tracking for her to prop up wurzel and his momentum zealots.



England voted to leave the eu , and rightly or wrongly thats what should happen.  I have no time for any of the english parties , but at least the tories stab you in the front when they fight you , labour and the liberals stab you in the back .



No time for any of them , and sturgeon shouldnt stop england from brexiting.

[Scott777]

Christ on a bike.....Godwin's law strikes again.....what is it with Brexiters and WW2?



Do you really want to drag Hitler up when you have these charming gentlemen on your side?...

Christ on his hover board - so you really wouldn't mind giving up your life if an MP thought it's in your interest?

[Borg Refinery]

a lesson i learned a long time ago during the run up to scottish indy , is have an argument  , have a debate , but dont waste time trying to convince people who arent listening.



Convert soft remainers , not try to convert hardcore remainers like beelbeeb. You are wasting your time.



I am a remainer , but for the constant reasons i have given time and again i believe england should leave the eu as its clearly what your people want.



You wont be taking us though without a fight.

I kind of wish Sturgeon would start a UK wide party to inject some common sense into our politics as well.



(I'm sure the jeers will ring out in abundance)



The fact is, a coalition of Lab SNP and the idiotic Swinson LDs is probably going to be the only way of solving the inevitable troubles the GE will throw up (sic). I'm hoping that our parties come to their senses, LOOK at how things are done by consensus in the Europarl and other more sensible countries, and decide to try and change things for the better.



Frankly, the Cons are a lost cause, folks on the Con benches can only do any good through defection..that's their only route out of being in the wrong 10 times out of 10.

[Scott777]

I would say as long a FoM exists in the UK and yes SMCU for the foreseeable future.



Part of the promise was that we would (despite leaving the EU) the UK would still have a say in how it's run in matters such as this (as we do now).



And of course, as we have now there would be an exit procedure.







That's not a thing. The fact you think it is explains alot



 also not a thing.  The UKs opt out if the € is baked into the treaties and cannot be removed without the UK's agreement.



 again, self determination of military affairs is part of the treaties and nothing can change that.



 the EU can't run out of money, unless you mean the member states run out of money.  And as we aren't in the € we don't have to participate in any eurozone bailouts. We may still participate in bailouts via the IMF, but that isn't part of the EU and Brexiters haven't yet got round to demanding we leave that on the basis of "it being foreign or something"



 it covers a staggering amount of bullshit that you've swallowed.  Literally every point you raised is a well debunked pile of crap.  I assume all the above is "part of the secret Lisbon treaty due to activate in 2020" or some such guff.



 the argument that the people are sovereign is literally the opposite of my argument.  



Still now I have simply answer your question: I want a leave deal that gives us all the benefits of EU membership with none of the obligations, as promised by leave.



Can you kindly tell me what it was you voted for in 2016? I assume it identical to BJs withdrawal agreement (in reality the EU's first offer minus the bits May persuaded them to concede) as all leavers knew exactly what you were voting for and this was negotiated by the person leading 5he leave campaign.

I'm still asking what you want, otherwise how could your MP represent you?  So you don't want 10 immigrants in your home?  Euro?  Would you like treaties changed for military alignment?  Would you like a free bag of bananas delivered to your home, with "best wishes" handwritten by Juncker on a note?



I doesn't matter what I voted for, does it?  MPs only have to do what is in my interest, right?   :-?

[Scott777]

Mod Notice

Thread renamed to general brexit discussion

Good idea.

[cromwell]

Mod Notice

Thread renamed to general brexit discussion

[BeElBeeBub]

The fundamental problem with Beelzebub's logic is that, if Hitler is resurrected and gets into power, and let's imagine Beelzebub happens to be Jewish, Hitler may argue it is in Beelzebub's interest to be killed because he is genetically inferior and has no value in society.  Surely he is better off that way.  And according to his logic, he's all for it.

Christ on a bike.....Godwin's law strikes again.....what is it with Brexiters and WW2?



Do you really want to drag Hitler up when you have these charming gentlemen on your side?...



https://www.thetimes.co.uk/imageserver/image/methode%2Ftimes%2Fprod%2Fweb%2Fbin%2F42e54bd0-fd8d-11e8-9a88-fa81ced0c139.jpg?crop=3500%2C1969%2C0%2C182&resize=1200">

[Thomas]

My old mum ran a shop and her politics didn't extend much beyond which candidate could be trusted to keep the rates down. Since the only folk who could be relied upon to vote were the local trades people, no local Councillor dared raise them over much so trying to figure out who mum would ballot was a tricky business. But one day she told us that she was voting for X



And my brother said, "But mum, I was at school with him and he is a moron"



And my mum sighed and said, "I know, but who else is going to give the poor little sod a job?"



No one, particularly politicians, knows why we vote for anything so it is pretty near pointless trying to persuaded anyone to any particular way of thinking. All we can really do is sit back and enjoy the craic.

 ::



To a degree borkie.



I enjoy the craic on this forum as  i did the old one .



It is after all only the interwebby .

[BeElBeeBub]

So,SMCU for a thousand years?  FOM as now, for another week?

I would say as long a FoM exists in the UK and yes SMCU for the foreseeable future.



Part of the promise was that we would (despite leaving the EU) the UK would still have a say in how it's run in matters such as this (as we do now).



And of course, as we have now there would be an exit procedure.

And you have to take 10 immigrants into your home?

That's not a thing. The fact you think it is explains alot

 Okay, I' see what I can do, and I'll add the Euro,

also not a thing.  The UKs opt out if the € is baked into the treaties and cannot be removed without the UK's agreement.

an EU army, let's have our military swear allegiance to Brussels,

again, self determination of military affairs is part of the treaties and nothing can change that.

and I'll throw into the deal an agreement that if the EU runs out of money, we will bail them out.

the EU can't run out of money, unless you mean the member states run out of money.  And as we aren't in the € we don't have to participate in any eurozone bailouts. We may still participate in bailouts via the IMF, but that isn't part of the EU and Brexiters haven't yet got round to demanding we leave that on the basis of "it being foreign or something"

 That covers everything you want, I believe.

it covers a staggering amount of bullshit that you've swallowed.  Literally every point you raised is a well debunked pile of crap.  I assume all the above is "part of the secret Lisbon treaty due to activate in 2020" or some such guff.





[Quite] Uortunately for you, your MP is liable to ignore all of that on grounds that it's not really in your interest, but don't worry, because you are still sovereign (according to your definition).  You can still vote again, protest, and stamp your feet, being sovereign and all that.  ::

[/quote] the argument that the people are sovereign is literally the opposite of my argument.  



Still now I have simply answer your question: I want a leave deal that gives us all the benefits of EU membership with none of the obligations, as promised by leave.



Can you kindly tell me what it was you voted for in 2016? I assume it identical to BJs withdrawal agreement (in reality the EU's first offer minus the bits May persuaded them to concede) as all leavers knew exactly what you were voting for and this was negotiated by the person leading 5he leave campaign.

[Borchester]

a lesson i learned a long time ago during the run up to scottish indy , is have an argument  , have a debate , but dont waste time trying to convince people who arent listening.



Convert soft remainers , not try to convert hardcore remainers like beelbeeb. You are wasting your time.



I am a remainer , but for the constant reasons i have given time and again i believe england should leave the eu as its clearly what your people want.



You wont be taking us though without a fight.

My old mum ran a shop and her politics didn't extend much beyond which candidate could be trusted to keep the rates down. Since the only folk who could be relied upon to vote were the local trades people, no local Councillor dared raise them over much so trying to figure out who mum would ballot was a tricky business. But one day she told us that she was voting for X



And my brother said, "But mum, I was at school with him and he is a moron"



And my mum sighed and said, "I know, but who else is going to give the poor little sod a job?"



No one, particularly politicians, knows why we vote for anything so it is pretty near pointless trying to persuaded anyone to any particular way of thinking. All we can really do is sit back and enjoy the craic.

[Thomas]

Indeed I shall, but there's still value in convincing others to change their mind, or pointing out the idiocy of their ideas.  That way you get an extra vote.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you used to argue for remain?

a lesson i learned a long time ago during the run up to scottish indy , is have an argument  , have a debate , but dont waste time trying to convince people who arent listening.



Convert soft remainers , not try to convert hardcore remainers like beelbeeb. You are wasting your time.



I am a remainer , but for the constant reasons i have given time and again i believe england should leave the eu as its clearly what your people want.



You wont be taking us though without a fight.