General Brexit discussion thread

[Thomas]

You are dealing with a person who like most of his countrymen are clueless on Scottish politics.  Eyes covered and head totally up rectum and it does not matter what you say.  Nothing will move. it.  I was born into a  war time Scotland.  Then, Conservatives held some 50% of the Scottish vote.  And they held a fair chunk of that right up until the time of Thatcher.  To be fair to Labour.  They did a bang up propaganda job on Thatcher in Scotland.  But failed to point out small things like Labour had closed more pits than the Conservatives  or Thatcher was totally against bringing the poll tax first into Scotland. But her Scottish ministers  convinced her as the rates were due a hike in Scotland.  And the Tories would lose votes.  The rest as they say is history.

From that point on.  Labour became the dominant force in Scottish politics. And as you can confirm.  Just a disaster.  Particularly at local level. When they ran out of funds at local level on screw ball  lunatics projects.  They simply put up the then local rates.  And it became apparent that a Conservative vote was a wasted vote.  So fast forward.   I and many Conservatives voted SNP to keep out Labour.  And it worked.   From day one.  The SNP froze the local authority rates for six years.  Scrapped the Skye Bridge toll,  Then the highest in Europe. Produced the Queensferry Crossing, upgraded the M9.  Built the Aberdeen City bypass.  Then the largest civil project in Europe.  Soften the worst excesses of the bedroom tax.  Although a  retained matter.  So on and so forth.  Not a chance in hell under any other administration.

Despite the voting system in the Scottish Parliament  being designed to have a Labour majority for ever more.    Nobody told the Scottish voter.  And Labour were finally decimated when the then Scottish Labour leader Johann Lamont made her famous branch office speech.  Voters of all colours then realised that the SNP batted for Scotland.  First last and in between.  But surprisingly the Scottish Conservatives made a come back under Ruth Davidson.  And a Tory vote was no longer wasted.   The younger voters had never heard of Thatcher and they thought it was cider drink.  Alas fast forward again.  And along comes Theresa May. She was just a absolute disaster.  Although still a Tory.  I could still see some decency in the party with the likes of Rory Stewart, Ken Clark and Christopher Soames. .  You may disagree with their politics.  But they were honest.  What they said at 6 in the morning was still their word at 6 at night.

Then a real disaster arrived in the face of Big Kranky Bojo.  A world beating lying muppet.  This despotic bozo has normalised the politics of hate, racism and disinformation to a galactic level.  And brings to a new level the meaning of the word imbecile.  He and his grease ball zealots.  Who collectively call themselves a UK government.   All to a man/woman.  Totally discredited  the office they hold.   Are totally responsible for the rise in hate crime in England.  Now at over 114,000 and rising.  Not one promise they have made has been carried out. And now have  normalised the UK in breaking international treaties and law. .  Lying through the teeth at every opportunity.  That by the way is why Ruth Davidson resigned.  She like  me, cannot  stomach Big Kranky Bojo. And under no circumstance could I vote for him.  And Davidson knows the Scottish Conservatives are heading for decimation.  And what is now the leader north of the border is also a disaster.  He has been reported to the Scottish FA for using his status as a referee to promote the Scottish Tories.  That is the level they have stooped to.  Adding, getting shot down in flames in the Scottish media every time he makes his idiotic gob go.  However I digress.

What you also must understand when dealing with those blinkered south of the border.  Most are stupidly clueless on Scottish politics.  To a class one grade A top of the pops degree.  So much for the union. Scotland operates on a 4 party system.  Not the tribal two party system south of the border.  At one level or another.  Let it be local, national or GE level.  At one level or another.  Some 100% of all Scottish voters.  Not all clearly have voted the SNP.  As stated earlier. They bat for Scotland and it is now coming to fruition. If on the indy ref.  David Cameron had introduced FFA in Scotland.  The John Swinney version.  Not the George Osborne version. A wee bit here  and a wee bit there.  Instead of EVEL.  Making the Scots second hand citizen in one stroke.  I would probably still be a unionist. My view. Scotland  now has nothing going for it in the union.  Listening to   putrid hate and distrust. Spewed on a daily basis by tosspots at Westminster.  Anti English, enemy of the state, traitors and so on.  And I might add on here  Having to pay under threat of jail for a EBC  licence fee for the privilege. Because I own a telly.  Time for Scotland to go its merry way. 



         

good post jaydee , when i get the chance i will reply.

[Jaydee]

Sure , but brexit is a side issue in scotland.....its a means to an end for many of us.

Jaydee could vote however he liked.........2/3 scots voted remain , a large majority  , and thats good enough for me .

ok i understand why you think that. Thats because basically you dont understand scotland or scottish politics.......you just see the snp as some regional british party.

Im not an snp supporter in the terms you mean...im a scot indy supporter......the snp are merely a vehicle to get to independence.

Much of their policy is good  , others bad , some of their politicians i like , others is despise. Im a scottish centrist , and im open to any party in scotland that is non british. Upon indy , my vote is up for sale to the highest bidder.

Like many of us you would describe as snp supporters.

Yes movement is a large and broad church of people of differing views and politics united in one thing and one thing only......... scot indy.

You are dealing with a person who like most of his countrymen are clueless on Scottish politics.  Eyes covered and head totally up rectum and it does not matter what you say.  Nothing will move. it.  I was born into a  war time Scotland.  Then, Conservatives held some 50% of the Scottish vote.  And they held a fair chunk of that right up until the time of Thatcher.  To be fair to Labour.  They did a bang up propaganda job on Thatcher in Scotland.  But failed to point out small things like Labour had closed more pits than the Conservatives  or Thatcher was totally against bringing the poll tax first into Scotland. But her Scottish ministers  convinced her as the rates were due a hike in Scotland.  And the Tories would lose votes.  The rest as they say is history.

From that point on.  Labour became the dominant force in Scottish politics. And as you can confirm.  Just a disaster.  Particularly at local level. When they ran out of funds at local level on screw ball  lunatics projects.  They simply put up the then local rates.  And it became apparent that a Conservative vote was a wasted vote.  So fast forward.   I and many Conservatives voted SNP to keep out Labour.  And it worked.   From day one.  The SNP froze the local authority rates for six years.  Scrapped the Skye Bridge toll,  Then the highest in Europe. Produced the Queensferry Crossing, upgraded the M9.  Built the Aberdeen City bypass.  Then the largest civil project in Europe.  Soften the worst excesses of the bedroom tax.  Although a  retained matter.  So on and so forth.  Not a chance in hell under any other administration.

Despite the voting system in the Scottish Parliament  being designed to have a Labour majority for ever more.    Nobody told the Scottish voter.  And Labour were finally decimated when the then Scottish Labour leader Johann Lamont made her famous branch office speech.  Voters of all colours then realised that the SNP batted for Scotland.  First last and in between.  But surprisingly the Scottish Conservatives made a come back under Ruth Davidson.  And a Tory vote was no longer wasted.   The younger voters had never heard of Thatcher and they thought it was cider drink.  Alas fast forward again.  And along comes Theresa May. She was just a absolute disaster.  Although still a Tory.  I could still see some decency in the party with the likes of Rory Stewart, Ken Clark and Christopher Soames. .  You may disagree with their politics.  But they were honest.  What they said at 6 in the morning was still their word at 6 at night.

Then a real disaster arrived in the face of Big Kranky Bojo.  A world beating lying muppet.  This despotic bozo has normalised the politics of hate, racism and disinformation to a galactic level.  And brings to a new level the meaning of the word imbecile.  He and his grease ball zealots.  Who collectively call themselves a UK government.   All to a man/woman.  Totally discredited  the office they hold.   Are totally responsible for the rise in hate crime in England.  Now at over 114,000 and rising.  Not one promise they have made has been carried out. And now have  normalised the UK in breaking international treaties and law. .  Lying through the teeth at every opportunity.  That by the way is why Ruth Davidson resigned.  She like  me, cannot  stomach Big Kranky Bojo. And under no circumstance could I vote for him.  And Davidson knows the Scottish Conservatives are heading for decimation.  And what is now the leader north of the border is also a disaster.  He has been reported to the Scottish FA for using his status as a referee to promote the Scottish Tories.  That is the level they have stooped to.  Adding, getting shot down in flames in the Scottish media every time he makes his idiotic gob go.  However I digress.

What you also must understand when dealing with those blinkered south of the border.  Most are stupidly clueless on Scottish politics.  To a class one grade A top of the pops degree.  So much for the union. Scotland operates on a 4 party system.  Not the tribal two party system south of the border.  At one level or another.  Let it be local, national or GE level.  At one level or another.  Some 100% of all Scottish voters.  Not all clearly have voted the SNP.  As stated earlier. They bat for Scotland and it is now coming to fruition. If on the indy ref.  David Cameron had introduced FFA in Scotland.  The John Swinney version.  Not the George Osborne version. A wee bit here  and a wee bit there.  Instead of EVEL.  Making the Scots second hand citizen in one stroke.  I would probably still be a unionist. My view. Scotland  now has nothing going for it in the union.  Listening to   putrid hate and distrust. Spewed on a daily basis by tosspots at Westminster.  Anti English, enemy of the state, traitors and so on.  And I might add on here  Having to pay under threat of jail for a EBC  licence fee for the privilege. Because I own a telly.  Time for Scotland to go its merry way. 



         

[BeElBeeBub]

No it wasn't. It was a stumbling block that the EU and May concocted to give us a half baked version of Brexit.

We could have just walked away and by now have lots more deals in place. Very easy, where is your stumbling block in that?

If the UK has a different regine (tariffs, standards etc) from the EU there has to be a border with between NI and RoI or between NI and GB

There are no other options.

BJ overcame the stumbling block by choosing the Irish sea of course this had consequences for the UK, but that's not the EU's concern.

In this I agree.
Thankfully they will be conducted from outside of the EU from now on.
As doing them all from within it has worked out famously badly.

We've been outside the EU since January and it's not helped the negotiations.

I'm not sure having 7000 lorries parked in Kent is going to pressure the EU much.

[Thomas]

I think I covered it.
The comedy is not what Jaydee voted, it's why.
It's a fre country. vote what you like.

Sure , but brexit is a side issue in scotland.....its a means to an end for many of us.

Jaydee could vote however he liked.........2/3 scots voted remain , a large majority  , and thats good enough for me .

If you vote SNP you are an SNP supporter in my eyes.
Regardless of whether it is a broad or narrow church.

ok i understand why you think that. Thats because basically you dont understand scotland or scottish politics.......you just see the snp as some regional british party.

Im not an snp supporter in the terms you mean...im a scot indy supporter......the snp are merely a vehicle to get to independence.

Much of their policy is good  , others bad , some of their politicians i like , others is despise. Im a scottish centrist , and im open to any party in scotland that is non british. Upon indy , my vote is up for sale to the highest bidder.

Like many of us you would describe as snp supporters.

Yes movement is a large and broad church of people of differing views and politics united in one thing and one thing only......... scot indy.

[Baff]

Ok so jaydee voted brexit , so what?

A third is a tiny minority in my book , but you describe it any way you want.

why?

Does it take away the fantasy view of snpo voters being tartan communists or something?

Scotland like any other country has left right and centre voters as im sure you are aware , and many from all groups vote snp.

Once scotland is independent , you will see these different voting groups vote for left right and centre scottish parties.


...and that will include right of centre scottish voters who currnetly vote snp voting for a conservative type party.

I think I covered it.
The comedy is not what Jaydee voted, it's why.
It's a fre country. vote what you like.

If you vote SNP you are an SNP supporter in my eyes.
Regardless of whether it is a broad or narrow church.

Point taken about old loyalties re-emerging once the common ground has gone.
I very much noticed the same thing happen post Brexit.

[Baff]

Either way Jan 1st is just the start of years of negotiations.

In this I agree.
Thankfully they will be conducted from outside of the EU from now on.
As doing them all from within it has worked out famously badly.

[Baff]

The Irish border issue was a central stumbling block of Brexit and Johnson got round it by choosing an Irish sea border then telling the credulous he hadn't.

And so you thought....
Until Boris came up with the Internal Market Bill enshrining that the UK's interpretation has primacy in UK law.

Much howling and wailing from Euroland ensued.
From exactly the same people who howled and wailed when Boris removed the Irish backstop from the WA in the first place, I expect.

[Nick]

The Irish border issue was a central stumbling block of Brexit

No it wasn't. It was a stumbling block that the EU and May concocted to give us a half baked version of Brexit.

We could have just walked away and by now have lots more deals in place. Very easy, where is your stumbling block in that?

[BeElBeeBub]

The WA was an oven baked deal.
Boris got it through in two weeks, where his predecessor was unable to in 4 years.

Johnson's WA (which he now thinks is crap) was basically May's WA, with the "all UK" backstop chucked out and replaced with the "NI Only" Frontstop, which guarantees a border in the Irish sea.

The Irish border issue was a central stumbling block of Brexit and Johnson got round it by choosing an Irish sea border then telling the credulous he hadn't.

Any idiot can get a deal if they accept the other side's demands.

If he gets a trade deal with the EU. It will be the fastest trade deal the EU has ever made.
Done and dusted in under a year.

Not really done and dusted.

Even if he gets the agreement he is asking for (zero tariffs) it's still a painfully thin agreement that will cause significant friction. For example the Kent lorry parks will be needed even if an agreement is reached.

Either way Jan 1st is just the start of years of negotiations.

[Jaydee]

If he gets a trade deal with the EU. It will be the fastest trade deal the EU has ever made.
Done and dusted in under a year.

Yeh.  So far Brexit has cost us more than the UK has contributed to the EU since it joined the Common Market.  So far Brexit has cost a 3% drop in the UK economy.  And any deal  will get will cost more than the contribution the UK is now making.  With no say in the matter.  While  a member.  The UK net contribution was just over £8 billion a year.  Do you really think  the EU is going to give the UK something for nothing. While its remaining members pay.  Or are they anti English and enemies of the state as well. And any deal will involve the principle of freedom of movement.  Thus any deal will mean.  The UK not really leaving and paying for  the privilege.  Through the nose. 

Any deal the EU has done in the last 47 years will be null and void to the UK.  And the UK will have to renegotiate all those.  That means the UK has now done a free trade deal with Japan.  That means it will also under WTO rules, to do free trade deals with all 164 countries.  And those other countries do not have to reciprocate.  It has been explained a hundred times to you.  Even By Andrew Neil.  Oh look come hell or high water. Big Kranky Bojo, the world beating muppet  Has stated the UK will end discussions on 31st October.  Deal or no deal. 

Oh look Big Kranky Bojo has back tracked.  His bluff called.  Oh look Big Kranky Bojo.  Has been calling Starmer an enemy of the state for asking for a lock down in England. Big Kranky Bojo's waffle..   NEVER  Oh look Big Kranky Bojo has put England on a lock down and as he waffles more bullshit.  He is still believed as his lying bullshit is swallowed hook line and sinker. Just like the links below. Much of the PPE useless and had to be destroyed. And  Dido Harding is being paid £7,000 a day for a feckin disaster.  That was Big Kranky Bojo and his world beating test trace and isolate.  And the main reason why England is now on lock down..  Its called money for the boys.Big Kranky is making a clown of you.  But heh why let facts get in the road.

https://bylinetimes.com/2020/10/25/500-million-government-ppe-deals-conservative-companies-donors/
https://news.sky.com/story/john-penrose-tory-mp-and-husband-of-beleaguered-test-and-trace-boss-blames-chaotic-parents-in-free-schools-meals-row-12116374

[Thomas]

I've posted, very recently about his lies, ive posted about the 130b (heading to 200b) , oven baked deals, not ready for logistics, 50,000 customs officials, 1T leaving the UK, as cor would say...send us your banks, we like them.... Nissan saying they will pull the plug without the right type of deal (I'm sure they will leave production for the uk market, their not stupid).

I really could go on, try keep up nick

Just thought, what about all those required agencies, remember the chemical agency, top of the class for you if you can remember the cost to replicate that.
Was it 500m a yr, 750m a yr or 1b a yr.

Johnsons lies gerry pale into insignificance with your hero tony blair.

Dont you think all this brexit malarkey has a lot if its roots in the blair premiership........for  example flooding the uk with eastern european migrants etc etc?

Blair did all the donkey work pissing the uk voter off , and farage took advantage of all his hard work.

I always say new labour were the cause of the rise of ukip in england.

[Thomas]

The reason I voted Brexit was very simple.  At the time I was really gobsmacked when England voted to make itself poorer.  I suspect most did not expect that.  However.  It was just one layer of a problem removed if Scotland was already out.  Which it is now. It  is now academic.  When Scotland now goes its  merry way.  The leaving problem is gone.   The Scottish voter,  now only has to vote to go back in or not go back in.  As the case may be.  Without having to deal with the fanny being spouted by the likes of grease ball Gove. By the way.  I hear Gorgeous George is now a English Tory.

jaydee you can vote however you like.

I voted remain , but im not so wedded to the idea of the eu as some on here are.........i was mildly , and i repeat very mildly pro eu .

As for gorgeous george , nothing much would surprise me with that former labour carpetbagging chancing cant.

Honestly  , my disgust at labour and their current and former politicians knows no bounds.

[Thomas]

He really did.
He voted for it and he got it.

Nor is 1/3 a tiny minority in my book, nor is someone who votes SNP a Tory.

Ok so jaydee voted brexit , so what?

A third is a tiny minority in my book , but you describe it any way you want.

nor is someone who votes SNP a Tory.

why?

Does it take away the fantasy view of snpo voters being tartan communists or something?

Scotland like any other country has left right and centre voters as im sure you are aware , and many from all groups vote snp.

Once scotland is independent , you will see these different voting groups vote for left right and centre scottish parties.


...and that will include right of centre scottish voters who currnetly vote snp voting for a conservative type party.

[Thomas]

You mean the facts.

Well let me tell you of the "facts".

The fact is , you put your  remain argument to the people of the uk , and they voted to leave. I cant help the" fact" people like you cant handle democracy when it goes against you , but there you go gerry. Raking over the coals again and again might make you feel better in your misery , but it isnt altering anything brexit wise. The uk is still leaving.

"project fear", now that's not a fact, just a meaningless mantra for the dumb folk.

Project fear was a real phrase uttered by your new labour heroes in the scot indy ref , and then borrowed into the brexit ref by the eurosceptics. Nice to see the mask slipping though and what you arrogantly think of the average voter shining through once again.

It must have been a sore one when those "dumb folk" voted brexit and stuck two fingers up to you.

When I post that brexit HAS cost the UK over 130b and climbing that wasn't known four years ago. When I post that "the easiest deal in human history" wasn't actually how it panned out, that wasn't known four years ago. When I posted that USA is threatening the UK with no deal, that wasn't known 4 years ago. But then I forgot about your crystal ball.

The minute detail might change day to day , but it remains part of the general theme that the voter rejected four years ago and continues to reject today.

Doing the same thing over and over is a sign of your stupidity........it gets to the point no one is actually listening to you rather then being swayed by your arguments as you cant address the key issue which is england wants out of the eu , and no amount of doom and gloom economic scaremongering is going to change that.

If someone like you told me it will cost scotland 130 billion to leave the uk..........i would be running to the polling booth like a feckin olympic sprinter to vote yes to independence. You just dont get this patriotism/nationalism thing do you?

Which is a bit rich considering your claim to be irish.......one of the most patriotic people on this earth.

pity I had pictured you reading my posts with your hand down your kilt.

the mask slips again   

I know who Jim is, but we may as well be talking about any other b list politician with little to no influence or decision ability. His sister is far more influential, she lives around the corner from me and my son has just joined the same rugby club as her'

It took you a wee while to google him didnt it considering he is of course a dublin politician who was of course a fiannna fail golden boy at one stage touted for leadership. His sister would of course be right up your neo liberal new labour street wouldnt she?

Does "sues" son play rugby?

Typical, first you think Merkel and Macron rule the EU, delusion,

stop telling yet more fibs. Why keep lying?

Using the quote tags show me where i have ever said this on this forum?

Not a big fan of macron myself , but big angie doesnae bother me at all.

and now its Jim, from Ireland who has everyone hanging on his every word. "go Jim, go Jim, yeaaaa Jim".

You seem quite uncomfortable with me bringing up a dublin irish politician.? As i said to you before "gerry" you bad fellow you , whenever the subject gets taken away from brexit , you seem quite uncomfortable talking about irish issues or day to day life and politics that isnt brexit related , and it normally takes you quite a while to go off and google a reply.

You arent fooling anyone least of all me.

I have my feet up laughing my feckin head off at your desperation to stop brexit. What do you think of starmer? Do you think he will be able to emulate your hero blair and win victory for labour?

~He has got off to a pretty poor start dont you think?

( i know i know you dont know who labour are as your irish You can tell me the name of tory party spin doctors but play dumb about everything else. )

[Baff]

Well that wasn't a poll, it was an election.

An election is a poll.

Elections occur on "polling day" when political parties take their policies "to the polls" and their supporters vote for them in a "polling booth" which can be found inside a "polling station".
Famously the "poll tax" in which every voter was taxed, didnt go down very well "at the polls".

These kind of polls, elections and referendums, are considered to be more authoritative due to the very much higher numbers of people who participate in them.
And this is why elections are often referred to as "the only poll that counts".