General Brexit discussion thread

[Nick]

No matey.  You are not paying attention. As usual. Take the blinkers of.  Lighten up. Get out of tribal politics and believing  the fanny from Number 10.  What Boris say he will do or not do today.

What has Boris got to do with it?

You said the EU will build a border, not interested in your other Strawman points.

[Jaydee]

I'm sure the Southern Irish will be thrilled.

No matey.  You are not paying attention. As usual. Take the blinkers of.  Lighten up. Get out of tribal politics and believing  the fanny from Number 10.  What Boris say he will do or not do today.  The opposite happens in two weeks.And you still believe him.  Biden has made it very clear to Big Kranky Bojo the world beating muppet. Anything he does that jeopardizes the Good Friday agreement. There will be no deal with the USA. America  has a powerful Irish American and Jewish lobby. And the UK out of the EU will be a tiny wee minnow swimming in a sea of sharks,  in the world of trade.  All looking after their own interest. But heh why let facts get in the road.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/joe-biden-brexit-good-friday-agreement-trade-deal-b457753.html
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/biden-warns-us-uk-trade-deal-will-not-happen-if-belfast-agreement-undermined-1.4384140 

[Jaydee]

None.
And the UK will not create one.
The same is equally true of the S Irish who also will not create one.

What part of where two regulatory alignment meets in the EU it requires a trade border.  Can you not grasp.  And Boris has already put a border on the Irish sea.  Geez talk about the blind leading the blind. Why do you continue to refute all evidence placed before your eyes. Big Kranky Bojo the world leading muppet is making a fool of you.  Last Friday.  All his muppets were doing the TV rounds.  Except GMB with Piers Morgan. Screaming like half wits.  There will be no lock down. Ranting that was the policy of the anti English traitors and enemies of the state.  Ten seconds after the Ding a ling Dominic Raab ranted the same on the BBC.  What happened.  England is being put on lock down,  leaked to the press. By your logic mate. It is not going into lock down.  You in denial to this as well. See links.  Oh look everybody is wrong but you.  Jings. You better tell Big kranky Bojo.  He cannot put up a border. He already has. After you swallowed his fanny hook line and sinker.  He would not. You still reading the Emperor's Clothes. But heh why let facts get in the road

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-government-trade-checks-britain-northern-ireland-a9524211.html
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/13/brexit-will-mean-checks-on-goods-crossing-irish-sea-government-admits
https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-government-admits-there-will-be-checks-on-goods-going-to-northern-ireland-2020-5?r=US&IR=T
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51351677

[Thomas]

None.
And the UK will not create one.
The same is equally true of the S Irish who also will not create one.

Baffy , hard border is a vague , meaningless and often misued term. It could mean anything from a militarised border with fences all around northern ireland , to anything however small that impedes the all ireland economy depending on the viewpoint.

Also you keep offering this up as a simple binary decision to be made either by or with both the republic and the uk. There will be many factors involved in that decision , not least of which will be the good people of northern ireland themself first and foremost. They voted to remain in the eu , and that fact might be dismissed by you , but wont be discounted by the uk government in its desperate efforts to keep the uk together.

Secondly if the eu tell the republic to jump , or the yanks russians and china tell the uk to jump , then the answer wont be feck off , it will be how high.

As ever in this whole brexit debate , its phoney war antics and vague meaningless hysteria and crystal ball gazing about what "might " happen.

We will  soon see after the next 8 weeks.

[papasmurf]

None.
And the UK will not create one.
The same is equally true of the S Irish who also will not create one.

The smugglers and people traffickers will jump for joy if that is what happens.

[Baff]

Very simply.

If the UK leaves with no deal which international legislation requires the UK to have a hard border with the EU?

None.
And the UK will not create one.
The same is equally true of the S Irish who also will not create one.

[Baff]

Which part of the EU and the WTO will comply with their rules and regulations to protect their members.. Fails to register with you. From your own Government. 

EU trade agreements will not apply to the UK from 31 December 2020. The UK is seeking to reproduce the effects of these existing EU trade agreements, in order to ensure continuity of trading arrangements for UK businesses.

WTO rules state that the same trading terms must be applied to all WTO members, unless, for example, there is a trade agreement between 2 or more countries. This is known as Most Favoured Nation (MFN) treatment.MFN means that the UK cannot offer better trading terms to one country and not to WTO members, unless, for example, it has a trade agreement.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/trading-under-wto-rules

Border control is not covered by the WTO.
It's enforcement or lack thereof is not something the WTO addresses.

[Baff]

I'm sure the Southern Irish will be thrilled.

The EU is not able to put up a border.
It is a diplomatic institution in France/Belgium.
Old blokes in a palace (or two).

Since S Ireland refused and the EU has no legal authority or physical ability to build one in S Ireland, there will be no border checkpoints on the Irish border.

[Baff]

If the UK has a different regine (tariffs, standards etc) from the EU there has to be a border with between NI and RoI or between NI and GB

There are no other options.

BJ overcame the stumbling block by choosing the Irish sea of course this had consequences for the UK, but that's not the EU's concern.
We've been outside the EU since January and it's not helped the negotiations.

I'm not sure having 7000 lorries parked in Kent is going to pressure the EU much.

There is a border between NI and SI.
Always has been.
On one side you use the Euro and on the other the Pound.

What the GFA enshrines is that it is not militarised.
As a negotiating tactic the EU insisted that SI must place customs checks on this border.
Something SI is unwilling to do.

Concessions have been made on the UK side.
We will operate customs checkpoints on SI's behalf on our side of the border. Away from it.
Which solves the problem between SI and the EU that Brexit has "created".


The EU insisted that to avoid customs posts on the SI side of the border, that the UK must remain in the EU single market and customs union.
The UK refused and Mrs May offered a compromise.
NI would stay in the single market and customs union. A border would be created in the Irish Sea.

She was famously unable to deliver this agreement. With the UK parliament rejecting his three times.
Boris Johnson had resigned from her cabinet over this very issue, quite early on.

At this point she was dropped as PM.
Boris took over.

He removed the "border in the Irish Sea" from the WA and it passed through parliament and the EU both.

Unfortunately for Remoaners they had just spent the previous three years screeching that to do so was "impossible". And rather than face up to how stupid this has made them look, many of them have chosen instead to simply deny that this has occured.

They have instead clutched to the straw given that because of Ireland's cross border farms, that NI is to stay in the EU single market in limited regard to it's agriculture. On agricultural issues NI will adhere to EU standards.

And now pretend that there is to be a border in the Irish Sea.
There is not.


These moronic claims have been further dashed when after the EU threatened to use this agreement on agriculture punitively to disrupt the UK's internal market, Boris took legal steps to ensure that Remoaners/EU interpretations of the WA hold no legal status in the UK.
Nailing that confin lid down hard.


There are and always were plenty of other options vs a border in the Irish Sea.
I will list a few.

UK stays in the EU.
UK stays in the EU customs union and single market.
UK signs a trade agreement that includes regulatory alignment and tariff free trade with the EU.
Max Fac. Border controls are operated behind the lines in customs checkpoints that are not physically located on the border itself.
The EU exempts the SI Irish border.
The EU exempts NI trade from external tariffs and regulation
The EU recognises reglatory equivalance with the UK.
S Ireland leaves the EU.
S Ireland leaves the EU customs union and single market.
Customs checkpoints are placed between SI and the EU.
Customs checkpoints are placed on the border.

In the end we went with the most obvious choice and the one that the UK government favoured from day one.
Max Fac.



7,000 lorries using a news customs checkpoint in Kent won't be any trouble for the EU.
The equivalent new facility required in (or near) Calais however, will be equally as big an issue for them as the new Kent one is for us.

[Nick]

And that means the EU will put up a border.

I'm sure the Southern Irish will be thrilled.

[Jaydee]

And we are in the position that we only have the one border so that satisfies that.
The WTO are not in any position to do much if we didn't.

Which part of the EU and the WTO will comply with their rules and regulations to protect their members.. Fails to register with you. From your own Government. 

EU trade agreements will not apply to the UK from 31 December 2020. The UK is seeking to reproduce the effects of these existing EU trade agreements, in order to ensure continuity of trading arrangements for UK businesses.

WTO rules state that the same trading terms must be applied to all WTO members, unless, for example, there is a trade agreement between 2 or more countries. This is known as Most Favoured Nation (MFN) treatment.MFN means that the UK cannot offer better trading terms to one country and not to WTO members, unless, for example, it has a trade agreement.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/trading-under-wto-rules

[Jaydee]

Who is going to tell the UK that on 'no deal' they have to put up a border?
Simple question.

Simple answer.  A border is where two regulatory alignments meet.  And that means the EU will put up a border.  And goods coming into the EU from the UK will be examined.  End off.  Nobody in the EU is giving a rats crap.  About goods coming from the EU into the UK. As that will comply with EU regulations. You are just in denial.  Thinking the UK is some form of superman and everybody will doff their cap.  The EU has border regulations, for non EU members. And it will enforce them to protect their members. And nothing is going to change your mind. This is the third or fourth time I have asked you.  As you go of on another Tangent. Do you really think  what was costing the UK about £8 billion a year.  That the EU is going to give the UK  it for nothing while the remaining members have to pay?. Get real.   I even put a question mark in to stop you going of on that tangent. 

A physical border for EU/UK transactions will require both Regulatory Compliance and proof of payment of Tariffs. Goods (and individuals) may be delayed at the border for checks. Other member states are preparing contingency plans for use in a 'No Deal' scenario to reduce such delays, particularly in relation to the movement of goods and transport at borders.

https://www.burges-salmon.com/brexit/what-does-an-eu-border-mean-for-the-uk/

[Nick]

Nick i remember the link being posted a few years back on the old forum , but from memory you are partially correct in that the uk doesnt have to put up a border with the republic of ireland , but if the uk doesnt , then under WTO ( is it first country rule?) it has to offer the same lack of border control to everyone else.

I think again from memory the implications of doing this for the uk treasurey in terms of loss of revenue and customes would be immense.

Not to mention it seems absurd to argue one minute you want control of your borders from the eu , then to give them up the next.


edit to add....


https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/fact2_e.htm

And we are in the position that we only have the one border so that satisfies that.
The WTO are not in any position to do much if we didn't.

[BeElBeeBub]

^^^
From the link above on MFN:

Some exceptions are allowed.[1] For example, countries can set up a free trade agreement that applies only to goods traded within the group —   discriminating against goods from outside. [2]Or they can give developing countries special access to their markets.[3] Or a country can raise barriers against products that are considered to be traded unfairly from specific countries. And in services, countries are allowed, in limited circumstances, to discriminate. But the agreements only permit these exceptions under strict conditions. In general, MFN means that every time a country lowers a trade barrier or opens up a market, it has to do so for the same goods or services from all its trading partners — whether rich or poor, weak or strong.

It's sometimes surprising how flexible some rigid international rules can be...

Those exceptions are

[1] - it's saying a group of countries can form a customs union, like the EU
[2] - that is the how the "EBA" scheme works, recognised developing nations can be given unilateral "perks", hence there are no tariffs on African chocolate or coffee despite what some politicians say
[3] - Those are anti dumping tariffs, like the EU/UK had on bicycles (UK is dropping it so tough luck UK bike makers) or wanted to put on Chinese steel (if the UK hadn't vetoed it)

None of them would apply to the GB/NI border.

The UK agreed to what would happen (NI would stay in the UK Customs area but the UK would apply the EU's customs code, to the extent required to prevent a hard border in Ireland, to the bit of it's customs area that covered NI) in Johnson's "oven ready" Agreement

The UK could refuse to honour those commitments but it would almost certainly kill the prospects of any agreement with the EU or USA

[Thomas]

^^^
From the link above on MFN:

Some exceptions are allowed. For example, countries can set up a free trade agreement that applies only to goods traded within the group —   discriminating against goods from outside. Or they can give developing countries special access to their markets. Or a country can raise barriers against products that are considered to be traded unfairly from specific countries. And in services, countries are allowed, in limited circumstances, to discriminate. But the agreements only permit these exceptions under strict conditions. In general, MFN means that every time a country lowers a trade barrier or opens up a market, it has to do so for the same goods or services from all its trading partners — whether rich or poor, weak or strong.

It's sometimes surprising how flexible some rigid international rules can be...

well good luck to england.....we will soon see in 8 weeks time .

Of course i seem to remember you argung against brexit and a border in ireland.....now you appear to be backtracking and offering a crumb of comfort where before you were bleating there was none.

It's sometimes surprising how flexible some rigid international rules can be...

funny though thats essentially what english brexiters have been saying for four years now , while anglo remainers like you have argued the opposite.