General Brexit discussion thread

[Thomas]

 

Picture of Joe Biden with Gerry Adams and IRA chief who tried to kill an Army officer emerges - as former Sinn Fein president says they discussed 'a united Ireland'

    Joe Biden seen with his arm is around IRA fugitive Rita O'Hare and Gerry Adams
    Gerry Adams said he discussed a united Ireland with the former vice-president
    Biden once said no one in orange was welcome in his house on St Patrick's Day

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8922741/Picture-Joe-Biden-Gerry-Adams-IRA-chief-tried-kill-Army-officer-emerges.html


The donald says no surrender....

[BeElBeeBub]

From tony blair getting a majority government on 25% of the electorate

I'm not going to argue that the UK democratic system is close to perfect or representative (it isn't).

But Blair's votes were 43%, 40% and 35% respectively, and in all cases a plurality.

There hasn't been a popular vote majority government since the 1930's (although close in the 50's)

[Nick]

Biden is deeply opposed to brexit and the internal market bill of johnsons .

But the point that no one has mentioned is that the UK won't get a deal with both the US and China so they will have to decide which way to go. China won't give a fig about the NI/SI border or Boris's bill so maybe that's the way we will go.

[Thomas]

Well in the bigger picture Ireland might feel it has one of its long lost sons, but in reality, the US has a lot more on its plate than little old Ireland, the Chinese are breathing down its neck and it is either a bastion of democracy or it ain't, the Chinese will be all over them like a rash. Just like they were the Ughurs.

However you look at it sheep , you cant dismiss the fact biden is extremely pro ireland , supports the GFA , is totally anti brexit and not too supportive of johnson and his party.

I dont know anymore than anyone else what biden will do going forward regarding issues like brexit , scot indy etc , but there cant be any doubt his election is another barrier in place for those like you and i who oppose the current status quo.

[Thomas]

Well you say that Thomas but it has put Indy back on the map also a United Ireland so imperfect it might be but that is as close to people getting what they wish (or not) by a vote.

Doesnt matter the symptoms of brexit cromwell , im addressing the issue of democracy.

The uk is a sham of democracy and we all know it.

From tony blair getting a majority government on 25% of the electorate , to the farce of the brexit referendum and the fact even ignoring the scot/ northern irish vote deabte , how england and the wider uk still hasnt left after more than four years , 1979 scot devo referendum etc etc , its quite clear there is no real democracy in the uk , which is one of its major failings and will be its undoing.

Same as the election of biden as i keep saying in america , its a mere breathig space for those commited to the status quo  , a medium term restoration rather than any radical shake up.

Scotland will become independent.

Not because of brexit , brexit being merely a symptom of the unhappiness of the uk state and the people within it. Same as irish reunification , a 100 year old wrong will eventually be righted.

As i said anyone who think january the first will be the uk over the finishing line needs their heads examined.

The structural faults and major issues of the uk wont go away , and neither lab or tory are the ones who will fix them , merely entrench problems.

[Sheepy]

Well in the bigger picture Ireland might feel it has one of its long lost sons, but in reality, the US has a lot more on its plate than little old Ireland, the Chinese are breathing down its neck and it is either a bastion of democracy or it ain't, the Chinese will be all over them like a rash. Just like they were the Ughurs.

[cromwell]

There is no democracy as we both know cromwell , its a sham , an illusion.

If democracy did exist , then neither scotland nor northern ireland would be facing the prospect of leaving the eu that we both voted overhwelmingly to remain in , and england and wales would have left two years ago.

...and if it was a uk wide vote , then there wouldnt be the hint of northern ireland remaining in the eu with all the old excuses of the good friday agreement etc , we would all be leaving.

I agree with beelbeeb , january isnt the end  , its merely the beginning , and im really interested to see what happens going forward.

Well you say that Thomas but it has put Indy back on the map also a United Ireland so imperfect it might be but that is as close to people getting what they wish (or not) by a vote.

[Thomas]

WellBeebly just another rehash of how brexit wasn't thought out and how well have to crawl to get a deal and probably in a few years back in to the eu.

From day 1 it's been sod the democratic vote,TBH for all the criticism of trumps reaction to losing and jubilation that he has I don't see much difference from remain and their behaviour since the referendum or the jubilation that Biden (the Irishman) will gives a hard time,like I said so much for democracy.

There is no democracy as we both know cromwell , its a sham , an illusion.

If democracy did exist , then neither scotland nor northern ireland would be facing the prospect of leaving the eu that we both voted overhwelmingly to remain in , and england and wales would have left two years ago.

...and if it was a uk wide vote , then there wouldnt be the hint of northern ireland remaining in the eu with all the old excuses of the good friday agreement etc , we would all be leaving.

I agree with beelbeeb , january isnt the end  , its merely the beginning , and im really interested to see what happens going forward.

[cromwell]

With Biden now almost certain to be the next POTUS, the question of the Irish border becomes harder to duck.

There has been a strand of thought here that if the UK gov simply ignores it's commitments about enforcing the agreed sections of the EU customs code at the NI/GH border then the Irish government will be forced to choose between putting up a border with NI or keeping it open.

Effectively a "not my problem bruv" approach.

I suspect the US will take a much harder line on this issue now, leaving the UK with a much less room to manoeuvre.

So we're back to the old, pre referendum, problem.

Where do we put the border?

Seeing as we rejected May's solution of around the entire UK it will have to be between GB and NI.

WellBeebly just another rehash of how brexit wasn't thought out and how well have to crawl to get a deal and probably in a few years back in to the eu.

From day 1 it's been sod the democratic vote,TBH for all the criticism of trumps reaction to losing and jubilation that he has I don't see much difference from remain and their behaviour since the referendum or the jubilation that Biden (the Irishman) will gives a hard time,like I said so much for democracy.

[Sheepy]

Give it a week and they will be waving the flag for Joe Biden, but then Joe ain't that stupid, don't respect democracy, reap the whirlwind.

[BeElBeeBub]

Aye it is going to be interesting to see what pressure a biden admininstration levers on the uk regarding brexit and the northern irish border.

I did wonder when someone  would bring it up on here.......its been doing the rounds on the interwebby the last few days.English remainers , irish nationalists , europeans etc etc all chucking their two pennies worth in and having a giggle.

Brexiters meanwhile seem to think the best policy is to ignore and wait the time out ....what is it 7 weeks or just over now?

about that.  Jan 1st doesn't mark the point he border problem goes away. It's the point it starts.

It then carries on until it is resolved.

So it's not a case of the government having to "run down the clock", it's a case of the government running out of time.

Im wondering if eventually we will see a border poll to determine what happens in the 6 counties? All other scenarios are extremely problematic for the uk government , and although the british wont like losing this old toy they never play with but dont want anyone else to have , if northern ireland is allowd to stay in the eu , then i would imgaine its a scenario that the snp fervently hopes will happen as it demolishes the argument it was a uk vote so the whole uk must leave.

If the tories try and stitchh up the english brexiter , meanwhile , they know they are in deep trouble at the next election. No one will trust them over brexit ever again , and i doubt there will be any second chances.

Rock and a hard place it seems.

a reasonable assesmen.
A border poll and reunification would end the issue for the UK.

The unionists would be rather unhappy, but then they (or at least the DUP) supported Brexit so they knew what they were voting for.

And you're right, the Tories would be in dire straits if they alienate the Brexit wing (majority?) of their party, so they will do everything to cling on including ditching NI.

[DeppityDawg]

As i said it will be the status quoers like beelbeeb , patman , javert  , quack quack etc who will be secretly smiling. Trump was a symptom of the wider western worlds problems , and biden , like starmer and new labour , are part of the cause.

It was interesting (in a bored detached way) to watch the conversation between Postbox and Hysterical Duck the other day. One is claiming some "libertarian right" is going to destroy society, and the other has unashamedly suggested that London and the south east can be independent too.

Quack quack is a typical example of a self interested leftish remainer, while Patman is a typical small c conservative remainer  whose interests in the EU were confined to what benefits h derived from it. Quack quack is forecasting the imminent doom of society (no change there then), while the other sees no conflict of interest in splitting up a nation (not a union for clarities same) because it would serve his own personal selfish interests.

You know my view on both of them too 

[Thomas]

How many times has it been said on here? You've said it. I've said it. Anyone with a grasp on reality knows it. When the UK (or the English at least) voted to leave the EU, they voted for the end of the Union.

You know my feelings on it Rob Roy. I won't cheer the break up of the Union, but I'm honest enough to see it coming, and that no one can stand in their way if that's what its constituent parts vote for

All the Brexiters on here can't disagree with the power of the option to vote to leave a Union they don't want to be in, can they?

Nope but they will though.

The tory SOS for jockland ally jack supposedly said the other day that the uk tory government (or red tory) will deny another referendum on independence for the next 30/40 years.

Now aside from the laughable absurdity of a government and party from another country that hasnt won an election in scotland since the 1950`s telling us what we cant and can do , and the history of how most countries in the 63 nation british empire left without asking for permission either , its interesting to see the effect this is having on the tories at the polls in scotland.

Day of despair for Douglas Ross as the Tories go backwards in Aberdeen by-election, and are on course to lose TWELVE SEATS in next year's Holyrood vote

Scottish voting intentions for Westminster:

SNP 52% (+1)
Labour 20% (-1)
Conservatives 18% (-2)
Liberal Democrats 8% (+2)

Scottish Parliament constituency ballot:

SNP 54% (+1)
Conservatives 19% (-1)
Labour 18% (-)
Liberal Democrats 8% (+1)

Scottish Parliament regional list ballot:

SNP 43% (+2)
Labour 19% (+1)
Conservatives 17% (-1)
Greens 10% (-)
Liberal Democrats 7% (-1)
Brexit Party 2% (-)
UKIP 1% (-)

Holyrood seats projection (with changes from 2016 result): SNP 69 (+6), Labour 25 (+1), Conservatives 19 (-12), Greens 11 (+5), Liberal Democrats 5 (n/c)

http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2020/11/day-of-despair-for-douglas-ross-as.html


...and why the british state is yet again realigning their support behind the red tories under starmer in the hopes they hold onto the jocks , while undermining the snp support behind the scenes.

Anyway  ,without turning this thread into anotehr scot indy thread ( afore i get moaned at ) whatever you think of trump , the election of biden isnt some harbringer of good and peace to all men , but merely the reintroduction of the same shysters who have caused many of the issue that afflict the modern world today.

Biden is no friend to johnson or brexit , but he isnt any friend to scotland in my opinion either.

As i said it will be the status quoers like beelbeeb , patman , javert  , quack quack etc who will be secretly smiling. Trump was a symptom of the wider western worlds problems , and biden , like starmer and new labour , are part of the cause.

Biden is deeply opposed to brexit and the internal market bill of johnsons .

We are about to see if the yanks have the power over westminster that i think they have....

[DeppityDawg]

If the tories try and stitchh up the english brexiter , meanwhile , they know they are in deep trouble at the next election. No one will trust them over brexit ever again , and i doubt there will be any second chances.

Rock and a hard place it seems.

How many times has it been said on here? You've said it. I've said it. Anyone with a grasp on reality knows it. When the UK (or the English at least) voted to leave the EU, they voted for the end of the Union.

You know my feelings on it Rob Roy. I won't cheer the break up of the Union, but I'm honest enough to see it coming, and that no one can stand in their way if that's what its constituent parts vote for

All the Brexiters on here can't disagree with the power of the option to vote to leave a Union they don't want to be in, can they?

[Thomas]

But Trump has not been defeated by a Bernie Sanders; he has been defeated by a corrupt political hack backed to the hilt by the large majority of the billionaire owned media, financed out of Wall street and with no intention of pursuing anything other than neo-liberal economic policies. It is also the firm re-establishment of the rule of the security state and the military-industrial complex. Trump's instinctive isolationism made him an enemy of the security state interest which spent a great deal of time in trying to undermine its President.

With Biden we will return to business as usual, and that means war and invasions. Under Trump we have had no new wars started, even if he continued old ones with little control. Without Trump, I have not the tiniest doubt that Syria would have been bombed back to the Stone Age, exactly like Libya, and millions more people would have been killed. Irrespective of the undoubted damage Trump has caused inside the United States across many fronts, Hillary would have killed a lot more people. Just not Americans.

I hope that those who consider themselves of the left enjoy their relief when the electoral process finally puts to bed the extraordinary populism of Trumpism, and returns the USA to the smoother control of the regular media and political classes and their billionaire controllers. Because anybody who believes any more than that is happening is a fool. I said that I did not blog about the US elections because of the appalling partisan nature of debate. The truth is the system threw up, again, two truly obnoxious candidates entirely antithetical to the real interests of ordinary people in the USA. Biden will do nothing to tackle the appalling wealth and resource inequality which is the most startling problem the country faces. He will hopefully resolve social tensions in the short term. But the cause of those social tensions is a system of gross exploitation of the middle and working classes which is not sustainable in the long term, and which was the root of the Trump political eruption.

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/


Looks like a return to business as normal , a victory for the "status quoers" .