Margaret Thatcher split off topic

[papasmurf]

And Scargill is hated more by the miners than Maggie I read somewhere.

I would be interested to know where that somewhere is.

[Nick]

The only influence Margaret Thatcher had on me was to make me angrier, and more hateful of Tories,

Funny though , margaret thatcher was hated as you say by the left, but blair is unique in that he is hated by left and right.

Good to see you back posting by the way steve , and what do you think of starmer taking over labour now for the blairites?

And Scargill is hated more by the miners than Maggie I read somewhere.

[patman post]

The only influence Margaret Thatcher had on me was to make me angrier, and more hateful of Tories,

Then I guess there's no hope of persuading you that the older, established political parties are more than their transient leaderships. The Tories are not Boris, Labour is not Starmer, and LibDems are (not?) nobody, while the SNP has two heads — one for the Scottish and the other as its London face, though they're both north of the border at present.
But having said that, Maggie Thatcher was a visionary. She knew that old industrial practices were dragging the country down and that the old industries were coming to the end of their lives and not worth propping up. Old style fifties union reactionaries — often funded by the USSR — prevented dialogue and a less-difficult transition to a modern economy. It was the unions that brought post-war hardship on the working class (and later) the middle classes.
But Thatcher energised the UK. Even telephone waiting lists (a regular music hall joke) disappeared after her govt split telephones from mail, and the UK phone market took off...

[cromwell]

Boris isn't the answer either though he serves a purpose,so where do you hang your hat,tried the lib dims who were as big a disappointment (as you did) so that really only leaves the extremists and I won't be voting for them,

I will let steve answer the rest of your post cromwell , but which "extremists" are you talking about here?

I find the word "extremist" often bandied about , a bit like the word " racist" , its now so often over used as more of an empty headed insult that it has lost any true meaning in your english language.

Corbyn and labour were classed as extremist , the snp were being classed as extremists up till a few years ago by your media until the opponenets of johnson and brexit started using them as a barometer of success over coronavirus and a stick to beat johnson with.

Ukip were classed as extremists , brexiters including you yourself , i have been classed as an extremist , the patman character even went so far as to start squealing im a russian bot.

Seems to me anyone who isnt a mainstream status quo individual bobbing along voting blairite labour or conservative and dont kiss BLM arses is immediately classed as an extremist. Its becoming an out of context oft used word that has lost all feckin meaning.

People are turning toward Britain first or find others like them and their ideas appealing,there are others on the hard left too........still with my empty head what do I know,thank you for your contribution Tovarisch Tomasov 

[Thomas]

Boris isn't the answer either though he serves a purpose,so where do you hang your hat,tried the lib dims who were as big a disappointment (as you did) so that really only leaves the extremists and I won't be voting for them,

I will let steve answer the rest of your post cromwell , but which "extremists" are you talking about here?

I find the word "extremist" often bandied about , a bit like the word " racist" , its now so often over used as more of an empty headed insult that it has lost any true meaning in your english language.

Corbyn and labour were classed as extremist , the snp were being classed as extremists up till a few years ago by your media until the opponenets of johnson and brexit started using them as a barometer of success over coronavirus and a stick to beat johnson with.

Ukip were classed as extremists , brexiters including you yourself , i have been classed as an extremist , the patman character even went so far as to start squealing im a russian bot.

Seems to me anyone who isnt a mainstream status quo individual bobbing along voting blairite labour or conservative and dont kiss BLM arses is immediately classed as an extremist. Its becoming an out of context oft used word that has lost all feckin meaning.

[cromwell]

Good to see you back posting by the way steve , and what do you think of starmer taking over labour now for the blairites?

Thanks. And as far as Starmer is concerned, like everyone on the left I have severe misgivings, but am waiting to see for the moment. It looks to me as if Starmer is trying to provoke a fight with the left in order to destroy it. His abject surrender to the so-called whistle blowers when we had a good case against them was a weak kneed political decision which will see - and is seeing - others jump on the bandwagon to fleece our party. The galling thing is, he has surrendered and apologised and paid damages to some of the very people exposed in that leaked report as working against their own party in order to destroy the former leadership, and who were far more focussed on their Blairite factional war against the left than with fighting anti-semitism. To surrender to those scumbags so soon after sacking Rebecca Long Bailey on a fake charge of anti-semitism stinks and sends all the wrong signals.

Many on the left are leaving. Most so far are staying, but with a determination never to campaign for anyone or anything not truly of the left, but to still be around to vote for what we believe in inside the party. Some of us are waiting to see what happens re policy. But there is much discord and ill feeling. The Labour party is nowhere near united at the current time.

Well there is no hope in hell of any corbynite ever being elected,mourn long Bailey all you like but just as unelectable,Starmer the remainer yes he's the blairite and like all the blairites a natural home is in the eu,still all those gammons you laughed at who were labour and taken for granted said stuff this and the red wall and voted for Boris.

Boris isn't the answer either though he serves a purpose,so where do you hang your hat,tried the lib dims who were as big a disappointment (as you did) so that really only leaves the extremists and I won't be voting for them,if you swallow all that for the many not the few bollocks good luck with that because in their own way they'll look after the few and the many like those in the former red wall have seen through the scraps thrown their way and buggered off with their votes.

And so they are the authors of their own demise and the rise of extremism lies at the door of decades of the pretence they ever actually gave a stuff,except for themselves.

And Btw Trump may well be a joke,still not blown up the world has he?

[Thomas]

Scotland is a lost cause for Labour, and on top of that last time out, they lost 'safe' seats up here in the North East that have never been Tory to the...erm...Tories. Yet their "Metropolitan" attitude shows no sign of getting any better.

Completely agree deppity.

Former labour advisor and journalist Ayesha Hazarika asked a while back on twitter now that starmer is leader , how does labour win back scotland?

Among the many thousands of replys that were along the lines of LMFAO , the only other serious reply was tp superglue labours one sole remaining scottish mp  Ian murrays mouth shut.

Starmer is a gift that keeps giving , and completely shows that the metropolitan london elite in their big bubble have learned absolutely feck all despite repeated maulings over the last decade.

Anyway how are you and how is work?

Hope you are ok and keeping busy.

[DeppityDawg]

Same here in scotland. Nearly every house in greater glasgow had a red tory out banner up at their windae in 2015 , and feelings have hardened even further in the years since jim murphy and ed milliband  lost 40 of blairite labours 41 red tory scottish seats.

Scotland is a lost cause for Labour, and on top of that last time out, they lost 'safe' seats up here in the North East that have never been Tory to the...erm...Tories. Yet their "Metropolitan" attitude shows no sign of getting any better.

[Thomas]

That is indeed a tempting option and most of us would love to do just that. The problem is the FPTP electoral system which virtually guarantees oblivion to any breakaway groups. It is because of that that some of us remain in the party hoping at some point to win the fight against these Blairite scum there. It seems to be our only chance of power under the current system. And such a fightback may well become possible if Starmer fails or is seen to be failing on his own terms. Right now, I would back any challenge to him. But for as long as the polls are moving in the right direction for him, the "power over principle" brigade who facilitated Blair will still back Starmer, so we don't have the numbers right now. If and when he is seen to be failing we are back in the game.

You are lucky up there. You have the SNP option. Were I living in Scotland I'd be backing the SNP too - especially considering that the only Labour MP in Scotland is a festering Blairite

You cant though keep shying away from FPTP. It took the snp a long time to break it in scotland , but eventually it cracks and when it does , it bursts like a dam. If you dont try , you wont get anywhere.

Thats one of labours problems , both corbynite and blairite cliques , trying to work within the decaying remanants of this union , hoping against hope scotland changes its mind and guarentees them fourty or fifty cannon fodder seats to fight the tories in england with. Its not going to happen .

If you remember old expounder from the old forum , thats exactly the argument he put forth for years ....trying to work within the broken shell of his party to fix it. He and many of you just cant see its beyond repair.

The only labour mp in scotland is an absolute tool of a man , and a gift for the snp. I know you wont like me saying it , but from my perspective i absolutely love the blairites.

Escpecially when dear old nice but dim ian and his london friends start lecturing us about flag waving nationalists.........

[srb7677]

In my opinion , i appreciate im probably banging my head against a brick wall , but you need to leave the blairites to get on with it and in my opinion start a new english left party rather than trying to keep the ever tearing seems of this dysfunctional union together in the guise of yet another brit  so called left party.

That is indeed a tempting option and most of us would love to do just that. The problem is the FPTP electoral system which virtually guarantees oblivion to any breakaway groups. It is because of that that some of us remain in the party hoping at some point to win the fight against these Blairite scum there. It seems to be our only chance of power under the current system. And such a fightback may well become possible if Starmer fails or is seen to be failing on his own terms. Right now, I would back any challenge to him. But for as long as the polls are moving in the right direction for him, the "power over principle" brigade who facilitated Blair will still back Starmer, so we don't have the numbers right now. If and when he is seen to be failing we are back in the game.

You are lucky up there. You have the SNP option. Were I living in Scotland I'd be backing the SNP too - especially considering that the only Labour MP in Scotland is a festering Blairite

[Thomas]

New Scottish Parliament Constituency vote poll, Panelbase 30 June - 3 July (changes vs 1 - 6 June);

SNP - 55% (+2)
Con - 20% (-1)
Lab - 15% (-1)
LD - 6% (nc)
Grn - 3% (nc)

[Thomas]

New Scottish Westminster poll, Panelbase 30 June - 3 July (changes vs 1 - 5 June);

SNP - 53% (+2)
Con - 21% (nc)
Lab - 19% (nc)
LD - 6% (nc)

Full figures for the Indy Q now seem to be available via @WhatScotsThink
, so (lack of changes vs 15 - 19 Jun / vs 2014);

Yes - 50% (nc)
No - 43% (nc)
Don't Know - 7% (nc)

Excluding Don't Knows
Yes - 54% (nc / +9)
No - 46% (nc / -9)

Labour are fecking despised utterly in scotland , and the union is all over now bar the shouting.

[Thomas]

Thanks. And as far as Starmer is concerned, like everyone on the left I have severe misgivings, but am waiting to see for the moment. It looks to me as if Starmer is trying to provoke a fight with the left in order to destroy it. His abject surrender to the so-called whistle blowers when we had a good case against them was a weak kneed political decision which will see - and is seeing - others jump on the bandwagon to fleece our party. The galling thing is, he has surrendered and apologised and paid damages to some of the very people exposed in that leaked report as working against their own party in order to destroy the former leadership, and who were far more focussed on their Blairite factional war against the left than with fighting anti-semitism. To surrender to those scumbags so soon after sacking Rebecca Long Bailey on a fake charge of anti-semitism stinks and sends all the wrong signals.

Many on the left are leaving. Most so far are staying, but with a determination never to campaign for anyone or anything not truly of the left, but to still be around to vote for what we believe in inside the party. Some of us are waiting to see what happens re policy. But there is much discord and ill feeling. The Labour party is nowhere near united at the current time.

I know steve.

I have been reading all about it on arsebook today . Its that bad neil findlay and other scot lab politicians , or should i say what is left of scot labour , are begging the last of the membership not to leave. Party  funding is that bad up here scot labour dont have the cash to fight the holyrood election , nor the native boots on the ground to chap doors.

The blairites if anything are completely predictable.

As i said earlier today , starmer and his clique cost labour dearly in decembers election with their extremely naive remain stance while having one hand around corbyns mouth over brexit. The blairites just dont realise their time has come and gone ten years ago now , and there is no going back as i explained earlier today.

The pieces of the jigsaw that fell into place for blair simply dont exist for them.

In my opinion , i appreciate im probably banging my head against a brick wall , but you need to leave the blairites to get on with it and in my opinion start a new english left party rather than trying to keep the ever tearing seems of this dysfunctional union together in the guise of yet another brit  so called left party.

England is crying out for something new , and opposite to the tories.

The trouble with the blairites was and is the have to face two ways when trying to win in both scotland and england , and end up falling on their arses while doing so. The tories have no such problems so to speak.

Starmer and his clique seem to think the public in both scotland and england want a return to the days of blair , and as decembers mauling showed , neither scotland or england buy into their strategy. At the minute starmer is getting away with murder simply becasue both the scottish and english governments are focused on covid 19. On top of that , we have the old worn out bullshit that the blairites are trying to punt that the uk rejected marxism in december and corbyns hard left politics , which as we both know isnt in any way true.

Starmers gamble on the so called silent remain majority in england utterly and totally failed  in december , and showed how out of touch the guy actually is.

Similarly  , he is making the same mistake up here regarding scottish indy.

He can offer up all the policy he wants , but all any conservative politician has to do is remind the english public at the next election of his baggage over being an anti democratic remainer who refuses to listen to the will of the people and pisses all over his core voters wishes , and he will recieve yet another kicking with no corbyn to blame next time.

Same here in scotland. Nearly every house in greater glasgow had a red tory out banner up at their windae in 2015 , and feelings have hardened even further in the years since jim murphy and ed milliband  lost 40 of blairite labours 41 red tory scottish seats.

[srb7677]

Good to see you back posting by the way steve , and what do you think of starmer taking over labour now for the blairites?

Thanks. And as far as Starmer is concerned, like everyone on the left I have severe misgivings, but am waiting to see for the moment. It looks to me as if Starmer is trying to provoke a fight with the left in order to destroy it. His abject surrender to the so-called whistle blowers when we had a good case against them was a weak kneed political decision which will see - and is seeing - others jump on the bandwagon to fleece our party. The galling thing is, he has surrendered and apologised and paid damages to some of the very people exposed in that leaked report as working against their own party in order to destroy the former leadership, and who were far more focussed on their Blairite factional war against the left than with fighting anti-semitism. To surrender to those scumbags so soon after sacking Rebecca Long Bailey on a fake charge of anti-semitism stinks and sends all the wrong signals.

Many on the left are leaving. Most so far are staying, but with a determination never to campaign for anyone or anything not truly of the left, but to still be around to vote for what we believe in inside the party. Some of us are waiting to see what happens re policy. But there is much discord and ill feeling. The Labour party is nowhere near united at the current time.

[Thomas]

The only influence Margaret Thatcher had on me was to make me angrier, and more hateful of Tories,

Funny though , margaret thatcher was hated as you say by the left, but blair is unique in that he is hated by left and right.

Good to see you back posting by the way steve , and what do you think of starmer taking over labour now for the blairites?