Margaret Thatcher split off topic

[papasmurf]

Other than that I certainly lost all faith in labour wouldn't trust them to do the right thing,and as I've said a few times the tories are devious b'stards but at least they advertise the fact,lib dims and labour project a caring sharing society that means they see they get more than their fair share.

Well apparently Nigel Farage has left Britain and so has Tommy Robinson, so if rabid Brexiteers are leaving the sinking ship, it must  time to be afraid, very afraid.

[cromwell]

Hello Cromwell, long time no see.

Well there is no hope in hell of any corbynite ever being elected,mourn long Bailey all you like but just as unelectable

Well Corbyn's downfall was that he was too soft with his internal enemies and had too much baggage. But his policies themselves polled very well and were popular. We came from far behind to destroy the Tory majority in 2017 because of the huge popularity of the 2017 manifesto. As for Long Bailey, no one is right now suggesting she lead our party. But she does represent a certain broad element in the party. To dismiss her without replacing her with someone from the same wing looks like a factional, anti-unity move. And we on the left see it as such.

Starmer the remainer yes he's the blairite and like all the blairites a natural home is in the eu,still all those gammons you laughed at who were labour and taken for granted said stuff this and the red wall and voted for Boris.

Starmer is definitely the Blairites' man but how Blairite he himself actually is remains to be seen. He is definitely a Remainer though, and the policy changes on Brexit which cost Labour votes amongst a certain demographic were down to him. But if he is ever daft enough to advocate rejoining right now it would be electorally disastrous. A decade or two must pass - and enough ageing gammons shuffle off this mortal coil to that great Little England in the sky - before rejoining can hope to have any hope of commanding substantial majority support. It may or may not be electorally popular in a decade or two. It certainly isn't now.

Boris isn't the answer either though he serves a purpose,so where do you hang your hat,tried the lib dims who were as big a disappointment (as you did) so that really only leaves the extremists....

No it doesn't. Democratic socialism and true social democracy is not extreme. Some are in the habit of portrayng anything to the left of Blair as extremist, but that is a dishonestly pejorative ideologically driven crock of crap. If I ever decide to abandon Labour - assuming there is no alternative viable force of the left - I would probably go Green, and might even join them.

...if you swallow all that for the many not the few bollocks good luck with that because in their own way they'll look after the few and the many like those in the former red wall have seen through the scraps thrown their way and buggered off with their votes.

The "scraps" we offered were substantial. Free university tuition, a higher minimum wage, an end to insecure work contracts, more social housing, real rent control and security for private tenants, etc, etc. They would have transformed for the better the lives of millions and were popular. We lost in spite of them not because of them. And "the many, not the few" is not bollocks. It is at the core of what the Labour party should always be about, supporting the millions over the elite few.

And so they are the authors of their own demise and the rise of extremism lies at the door of decades of the pretence they ever actually gave a stuff,except for themselves.

For too long Labour lost it's way because it didn't give a stuff about anything but power for it's own sake. We are in danger of returning to that.

And Btw Trump may well be a joke,still not blown up the world has he?

A separate topic methinks but I am surprised he has nearly seen out a full term, even though it has been one dismal car crash after another, with a leavening of total embarrassment thrown in.  A pity you called off our bet because you probably would have won it. But I am a gentleman so will put the bet back on if you want.

Well what with pandemics and everything else TBH I've had enough of arguments,politicians,people getting the hump over nowt,having no sense of humour,imagining they know what you're thinking so if I win I'll have to trust that you'll stick a few quid in a suitable charity box.

Other than that I certainly lost all faith in labour wouldn't trust them to do the right thing,and as I've said a few times the tories are devious b'stards but at least they advertise the fact,lib dims and labour project a caring sharing society that means they see they get more than their fair share.

[Barry]

It wouldn't even come close to the length of the list of Tories.

If you had read on a bit PP finished with this:

But I guess you could do the same. So I'll concede there's plenty of them to choose from across the political spectrum...

Which kind of makes your post pointless.

[papasmurf]

My (no doubt blinkered) Conservative/Right-Leaning sympathies would immediately string together a list of Labour and Socialist politicians and Trade Union leaders who feathered their own nests, caused havoc to the population whenever possible, and swindled colleagues, fellow members, and the public.

It wouldn't even come close to the length of the list of Tories.

[patman post]

Scargill was always a dubious hero of the left, likewise George Galloway,

But if you want downright swines, you are spoilt for choice on the right.

My (no doubt blinkered) Conservative/Right-Leaning sympathies would immediately string together a list of Labour and Socialist politicians and Trade Union leaders who feathered their own nests, caused havoc to the population whenever possible, and swindled colleagues, fellow members, and the public. But I guess you could do the same. So I'll concede there's plenty of them to choose from across the political spectrum...

[papasmurf]

But if you want downright swines, you are spoilt for choice on the right.

The list is long.

[srb7677]

Scargill was always a dubious hero of the left, likewise George Galloway,

But if you want downright swines, you are spoilt for choice on the right.

[patman post]

Scargill — extracts from Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Scargill#cite_note-38
(The sources linked to in the original are also worth checking)

[Arthur Scargill is] now the party leader of the Socialist Labour Party (SLP), which he founded in 1996.

In 1990, Scargill was accused in a series of Daily Mirror articles of mishandling money donated for the striking miners during the 1984-5 strike, with many of the sources being those who had previously worked with him in the NUM such as Kim Howells, Jim Parker and Roger Windsor

It was alleged that, of the money donated from Libya, Scargill took £29,000 for his own bridging loan and £25,000 for his home in Yorkshire, but gave only £10,000 to the striking Nottinghamshire miners.[30]

In addition, it was alleged that he had taken £1,000,000 of cash donated by the Soviet Union for the Welsh miners and placed it in a Dublin bank account for the "International Miners' Organisation", where it stayed until a year after the strike had finished.[30]

There was much criticism of Scargill within the NUM from the Welsh and Scottish areas, who briefly considered splitting from the NUM.[31]

An internal NUM report by Gavin Lightman QC found that Scargill had used some of the Libyan money to pay for improvements to his bungalow but not to pay off his mortgage (as had been alleged),[32] and stated that Scargill's failure to make a full report on the Soviet money donated for the Welsh miners was "a remarkable breach of duty" and that he should repay the money back to the NUM.[33]

In September 1990, the Certification Officer brought criminal charges against Scargill and Heathfield for wilfully neglecting to perform the union's duty to keep proper accounting records.[36] Scargill reached an agreement to repay money to the NUM shortly after this.[36] The prosecution brought by the Certification Officer was rejected in July 1991 on the grounds that it would be inappropriate to use the material provided in confidence to Lightman's enquiry.[36]

In 1993, Scargill tried to use Thatcher's flagship Right to Buy scheme to buy a flat on the Barbican estate in central London. His application was refused because the flat in the Barbican Estate's Shakespeare Tower was not Scargill's primary residence.

in December 2012, Scargill lost a similar case concerning rent on his flat in the Barbican, London. In 2012, the flat was valued at £1,500,000, and had 24/7 access to concierge services.[44]

For years the NUM had been paying £34,000 annual rent for the flat on Scargill's instructions, without the knowledge of NUM members or many senior officials; Scargill claimed the NUM should continue funding his flat for the rest of his life, and thereafter for any widow who survived him.

It seems that some of the heroes of the Left are no more righteous than some of the heroes of the Right...

[papasmurf]

The Sun, probably.

Or the Daily Heil.

[srb7677]

And Scargill is hated more by the miners than Maggie I read somewhere.

I would be interested to know where that somewhere is.

The Sun, probably.

[srb7677]

Hello Cromwell, long time no see.

Well there is no hope in hell of any corbynite ever being elected,mourn long Bailey all you like but just as unelectable

Well Corbyn's downfall was that he was too soft with his internal enemies and had too much baggage. But his policies themselves polled very well and were popular. We came from far behind to destroy the Tory majority in 2017 because of the huge popularity of the 2017 manifesto. As for Long Bailey, no one is right now suggesting she lead our party. But she does represent a certain broad element in the party. To dismiss her without replacing her with someone from the same wing looks like a factional, anti-unity move. And we on the left see it as such.

Starmer the remainer yes he's the blairite and like all the blairites a natural home is in the eu,still all those gammons you laughed at who were labour and taken for granted said stuff this and the red wall and voted for Boris.

Starmer is definitely the Blairites' man but how Blairite he himself actually is remains to be seen. He is definitely a Remainer though, and the policy changes on Brexit which cost Labour votes amongst a certain demographic were down to him. But if he is ever daft enough to advocate rejoining right now it would be electorally disastrous. A decade or two must pass - and enough ageing gammons shuffle off this mortal coil to that great Little England in the sky - before rejoining can hope to have any hope of commanding substantial majority support. It may or may not be electorally popular in a decade or two. It certainly isn't now.

Boris isn't the answer either though he serves a purpose,so where do you hang your hat,tried the lib dims who were as big a disappointment (as you did) so that really only leaves the extremists....

No it doesn't. Democratic socialism and true social democracy is not extreme. Some are in the habit of portrayng anything to the left of Blair as extremist, but that is a dishonestly pejorative ideologically driven crock of crap. If I ever decide to abandon Labour - assuming there is no alternative viable force of the left - I would probably go Green, and might even join them.

...if you swallow all that for the many not the few bollocks good luck with that because in their own way they'll look after the few and the many like those in the former red wall have seen through the scraps thrown their way and buggered off with their votes.

The "scraps" we offered were substantial. Free university tuition, a higher minimum wage, an end to insecure work contracts, more social housing, real rent control and security for private tenants, etc, etc. They would have transformed for the better the lives of millions and were popular. We lost in spite of them not because of them. And "the many, not the few" is not bollocks. It is at the core of what the Labour party should always be about, supporting the millions over the elite few.

And so they are the authors of their own demise and the rise of extremism lies at the door of decades of the pretence they ever actually gave a stuff,except for themselves.

For too long Labour lost it's way because it didn't give a stuff about anything but power for it's own sake. We are in danger of returning to that.

And Btw Trump may well be a joke,still not blown up the world has he?

A separate topic methinks but I am surprised he has nearly seen out a full term, even though it has been one dismal car crash after another, with a leavening of total embarrassment thrown in.  A pity you called off our bet because you probably would have won it. But I am a gentleman so will put the bet back on if you want.

[cromwell]

The only influence Margaret Thatcher had on me was to make me angrier, and more hateful of Tories,

Funny though , margaret thatcher was hated as you say by the left, but blair is unique in that he is hated by left and right.

Good to see you back posting by the way steve , and what do you think of starmer taking over labour now for the blairites?

And Scargill is hated more by the miners than Maggie I read somewhere.

Sadly, that is not my experience.

My brother in law was a collie and out during the whole of the strike. He was and is an intelligent man, but like all his friends, he truly believed that the whole country was behind Scargill and that it was just a matter of time before the Wicked Witch was hanged from a lamp post in Airedale. And I never bothered to explain that most every small businessman or woman in London hated the miners guts and would happily have rammed a pit prop up Artie's jacksie. He would not have believed me anyway.

Well I've seen a few places that were decimated when the pits closed so whatever the rights or wrongs Scargill saw what was coming and tried to fight it.
It's all very well people saying the industries were finished the pits too but nothing was done to alleviate that and once proud and hard working communities are now reduced to petty crime and drug taking.

And don't quote get on your bike for work people in the South east said eff off don't come here property too expensive anyway.

[Borchester]

The only influence Margaret Thatcher had on me was to make me angrier, and more hateful of Tories,

Funny though , margaret thatcher was hated as you say by the left, but blair is unique in that he is hated by left and right.

Good to see you back posting by the way steve , and what do you think of starmer taking over labour now for the blairites?

And Scargill is hated more by the miners than Maggie I read somewhere.

Sadly, that is not my experience.

My brother in law was a collie and out during the whole of the strike. He was and is an intelligent man, but like all his friends, he truly believed that the whole country was behind Scargill and that it was just a matter of time before the Wicked Witch was hanged from a lamp post in Airedale. And I never bothered to explain that most every small businessman or woman in London hated the miners guts and would happily have rammed a pit prop up Artie's jacksie. He would not have believed me anyway.

[papasmurf]

You've got google!

That I have which is why I asked. I can't find any credible source.

[Nick]

And Scargill is hated more by the miners than Maggie I read somewhere.

I would be interested to know where that somewhere is.

You've got google!