Margaret Thatcher split off topic

[Good old]

 

Thomas, I must admit that is one of the best examples of taking every word from multiple texts and repeating them out of context  conveniently applying  your own interpretation  to be seen anywhere. You obviously enjoy going to any length in time, and imagination to make your point multiple times, even at the expense of ignoring  the complete context of the various statements you use were intended to convey. You focus on what you see as contradiction at times as if the contradictions are all mine, when the contradictions , are easy to see in the whole political process in the last ten years. Thomas I really could not be bothered to go through that load of repeated nonsense, repeating the same old points for you to take in any context  you can dream up next.  Contradiction is telling people to stick with Tories, when you wouldn't, there have been others, That is you Thomas, No need for pages of minute inspection to point that out ,and you know there is more.

[Borchester]

I have addressed the Nationalist bit elsewhere  we are all nationalists . So you being one is only a problem when your ideas for our country oppose mine.
In our democracy ,democratic decisions do not preclude the right of every citizen the right to continue to voice opposition to the product of that decision. If you don%u2019t understand that , then your understanding is wrong.

Ok. So what if your ideas for our country oppose mine? Is that a problem too, or is there only a problem when you say there is? Not hard to see where that discussion leads, is it?

Im not saying you don't have the right to disagree with or oppose decisions. What I was obliquely suggesting was that deliberately obstructing or attempting to subvert democratic decisions because you don't agree with them is not democracy, and there has been plenty of that from the liberal remain camp in relation to Brexit.

Yes it has to be a problem, if  you don't understand that our democracy insists that opposition is protected from the demand that all opposition to a decision ends there.  And that any original objection one has to the subject can still be voiced. It's the very notion our British ideas of Liberty are based on.
  As far as the parliamentary situation was concerned ,Parliament always had the right to question the implementation of Brexit. The mistake ,I will agree was parliament allowing the notion it didn't ,to take root.
If you think our democracy is not democracy as you want it. That's another thing, unless it contains the clause,  thou salt not oppose Democratic decisions as they are never the wrong decision. It's a ridiculous notion that pure democracy can be accepted as pure in every other respect.

Which translates as democracy is sacrosanct as long as the electorate agree with the Labour party line. And if it does not it is just another example of the people being duped by Tory fascists.

[Thomas]

Yes it has to be a problem, if  you don't understand that our democracy insists that opposition is protected from the demand that all opposition to a decision ends there.  And that any original objection one has to the subject can still be voiced. It's the very notion our British ideas of Liberty are based on.

Rubbish.

You implement the referendum result , and then move on and campaign to rejoin if thats what you want.

You didnt want to do that though did you?

As far as the parliamentary situation was concerned ,Parliament always had the right to question the implementation of Brexit.

...and the people had the right to give the anti democratic remain parliament a kicking for not implemeting a referendum they promised to implement.

Which they duly did , much to labours bleating.

[Thomas]

In our democracy ,democratic decisions do not preclude the right of every citizen the right to continue to voice opposition to the product of that decision. If you don't understand that , then your understanding is wrong.

No one has said it does.

Your problem , as i have said about the brit left now for the last four years , was you tried to stop the referendum result , a democratic decision , being implemented at all.

Thats not democracy , squealing you dont like the result so you wont take your medicine.

If you had accepted democracy four years ago , including your buddy starmer the anti democrat and all his cloak and dagger antics at westminster to overturn brexit , and allowed brexit to happen , we might be in a better place.

Instead , you didnt , held it up for four years , caused outrage among the public , received your just desserts over many elections and now face brexit yet again in december , this time a much harder brexit .

All because you couldnt accept democracy.

All so feckin predictable.

[Thomas]

Considering most of what you have to say is no more than a rehash of you extensive attempts to prove how much you dislike the Labour Party and it's politics.

Ok so first of all whats wrong with that?

This is a political debating forum , and thats what we are all here to do.....pick apart each others politics or agree with them when merited , and say how much we dislike each others political parties.

No different from your extensive attempts to say how much you dislike the tories and their politics is it?

More of labours " do as we say not as we do " mantra from what i can see.

Let's just get the national issue clear.

Yes please....do........you seem very confused over the issue.

To start with yes I'm a Nationalist , I want what I see as the best for my country just as you say you do

Ok buts thas not what you were saying earlier on was it?

First of all you make a nationalistic statement in telling me you are a proud english national...

I'm proud to be an old English,man,Thomas

Then you contradict yourself and say nationalism doesnt apply in your country , only in scotland , despite earlier self identifying as an english nationalist....

Nationalism trumps all in Scotland. Doesn't apply down here.

You then go on to blame scottish nationalism for the rise of the snp ,and english nationalism for brexit , and then are finally forced to concede you too are a nationalist , just not the earlier english nationalist you self indentified with  , but now a british nationalist.

In short you are all over the place , and having retreated from the earlier insinuation nationalism is bad , you are now saying your nationalism ( british) is good , everyones elses is bad which is laughable.

And that's where the complication sets in..In international terms UK is our country

No it isnt.

In international terms the uk is known as a multi national sovereign state made up of differing countries. The eu recognises scotland as a nation , as we have discussed many a time , as does the united nations , where under the last labour adminsistration , uk diplomats stood at the UN and described the uk to the world as "two countries , a principality and a province."

you don't believe in it.

Nothing to do with believing in it. National identity is a complicated issue made up of history , upbringing and the society around you. At the last uk government census in 2011 , 62% of people in scotland identified as scottish only. So it seems im not alone in seeing myself as scottish in terms of national identity which is a big problem for "british labour".

So may I say your nationalism tends toward a rather more tribal version taking us all backwards in many respects .

...and may i say the same about yours.

Everyone in the brexit  debate was a nationalist , and yet they completely opposed each other.

and?

The movement toward a nationalist independent state in Scotland is quiet different to what is happening in England.

and ?

Because  you can argue that's all you want, as Borch, pointed out.

That is what i want. Your point again being what?

As a whole your country didn't even want brexit ,

It didnt , but England and Wales did. So you are pointing out an obvious reason why your precious union is past its sell by date, both our countries want differing things. Time to shake hands which each other the best and say goodbaye.

Not a nationalistic issue for them it seems.

Why?

We have a different history and relationship with europe than england does. Doesnt mean England cannot choose not to be a member of the eu if thats what it wants.

You put your stall out , and lost the brexit debate and referendum. England chose democratically to leave , so accept it  and move on.

This in part is why I claim the nationalist issue is not over riding in England,

well i disagree as you arent making any sense. You were only a minute ago insinuating england is being very nationalistic in wanting brexit , and scotland not.

Brexit was helped along by a nationalistic surge, yes ,possibly knee jerk for many.

Knee jerk?

Brexit and EU membership ( and its forebears) is something that simmered along uneasily in England for forty years.

I would hardly call that knee jerk.

You simply dont agree with it so dismiss it lightly .It was a long thought out long debated process over many decades that culminated with the majority in your own country disagreeing with you.

Many remainers gave Boris, the nod purely to bring the country back to something resembling sanity. Those people in particular will now wait to see what happens to them due to the way they voted.

Ahhhh the mythical silent remain majority , who never seem to appear at elections , now put boris into power , despite labour telling us 9 months ago they were going to sweep the tories from power and stop brexit?

Feckin hilarious.

Brexit is an issue, an issue that will evolve  within governance that doesn't claim to be strictly nationalistic  as it does in Scotland

The tories are no less nationalistic than the snp. What are you talking about?

Ask UKP, how much the English, actually want a Nationalist government.

Eh?

Are you trying now to argue the unfairness of FPTP , which gave UKIP one seat from memory off millions of votes is somehow an example of england not wanting a nationalistic government?

The labour tory stitch up of FPTP , which the SNP smashed in scotland , is no representation of anyhting other than the unfairness of so called "british democracy". You know like when tory blair got a massive parliamentary majority off the back of less than 25% of the uk electorate.

Then proceeded to whinge in 2016 that 52% maroity wasnt enough to allow the uk to brexit. laughable!

There is a lot more to being a true nationalist than just , shutting oneself up with your own set of Arseholes

Who is this aimed at?

I am a scottish nationalist debating on this predominantly english forum , and my country wants to become independent and go out into the world and join international organisations.

So im not sure who is shutting themselves up , but it certainly isnt me or mine.

Neither is it the english.

And accepting the knife  from the front . That's a recipe for sitting in your own shit and forgetting to duck

No idea what you are on about.

Seems to be nothing more than more cryptic bullshit because labour boohoo arent in the race for anything and look further from power than they did a decade ago.

[Good old]

I have addressed the Nationalist bit elsewhere  we are all nationalists . So you being one is only a problem when your ideas for our country oppose mine.
In our democracy ,democratic decisions do not preclude the right of every citizen the right to continue to voice opposition to the product of that decision. If you don%u2019t understand that , then your understanding is wrong.

Ok. So what if your ideas for our country oppose mine? Is that a problem too, or is there only a problem when you say there is? Not hard to see where that discussion leads, is it?

Im not saying you don't have the right to disagree with or oppose decisions. What I was obliquely suggesting was that deliberately obstructing or attempting to subvert democratic decisions because you don't agree with them is not democracy, and there has been plenty of that from the liberal remain camp in relation to Brexit.

Yes it has to be a problem, if  you don't understand that our democracy insists that opposition is protected from the demand that all opposition to a decision ends there.  And that any original objection one has to the subject can still be voiced. It's the very notion our British ideas of Liberty are based on.
  As far as the parliamentary situation was concerned ,Parliament always had the right to question the implementation of Brexit. The mistake ,I will agree was parliament allowing the notion it didn't ,to take root.
If you think our democracy is not democracy as you want it. That's another thing, unless it contains the clause,  thou salt not oppose Democratic decisions as they are never the wrong decision. It's a ridiculous notion that pure democracy can be accepted as pure in every other respect.

[Sheepy]

So off you go and do your history lessons and stop feeding me your new labour cobblers, screaming about the SNP and the loss of Scotland, Nationalists, Populists etc, while the city of London and the majority of Parliament were doing all of the Brexit fear mongering and using the SNP as a weapon of mass destruction nobody minded one bit, you reap what you sow.

[DeppityDawg]

I have addressed the Nationalist bit elsewhere  we are all nationalists . So you being one is only a problem when your ideas for our country oppose mine.
In our democracy ,democratic decisions do not preclude the right of every citizen the right to continue to voice opposition to the product of that decision. If you don%u2019t understand that , then your understanding is wrong.

Ok. So what if your ideas for our country oppose mine? Is that a problem too, or is there only a problem when you say there is? Not hard to see where that discussion leads, is it?

Im not saying you don't have the right to disagree with or oppose decisions. What I was obliquely suggesting was that deliberately obstructing or attempting to subvert democratic decisions because you don't agree with them is not democracy, and there has been plenty of that from the liberal remain camp in relation to Brexit.

[Good old]

Maybe I should have used your monitor, you wouldn't have to ask then would you. I think your probably right,Labour should have just fallen into line with the less than 52% of the total electorate on a single issue. It would have stopped the nation getting bored to tears ,with the Westminster infighting and begging Boris, to relieve the pain.
One minute the moan is they opposed Brexit ,problem. Next it's they were to quiet,problem. It's old news. And all that's going to matter is that Brexit will be judged on results.
I opposed Brexit, I didn't have a brain transplant when the result didn't please , so I,ll keep saying I oppose it. In the same way ,because the nation asks for Tory  it will  not stop me slagging them off, it's all part of British democracy, and I don't understand anyone opposing something until they are told not to, that's a very dangerous practice to develop  in a free country.

Ah right. I see. Said the blind man. My understanding of 'democratic' decisions must be all wrong then? Sometimes I'm grateful that we have the wonderful wisdom of the liberal left to keep us all right.

You seem to spend a lot of energy going on about "nationalists". There's nothing wrong with nationalism. I'm one myself. Is that a problem?

I have addressed the Nationalist bit elsewhere  we are all nationalists . So you being one is only a problem when your ideas for our country oppose mine.
In our democracy ,democratic decisions do not preclude the right of every citizen the right to continue to voice opposition to the product of that decision. If you don't understand that , then your understanding is wrong.

[Sheepy]

Anyway as the majority of you don't have a clue about the history behind it, in the early 60's/late 50's the aristocracy and the elite decided banking was the way forward as Industrialisation was expensive to keep up with including the rising cost of Labour and constant investment in machinery, so banking it was, while they could invest in foreign markets such as Japan and Germany who were rebuilt after WW2 with new industrial infrastructure, so by the 70,s the unions were up in arms at the slow but dying industries  the rising cost of living and stagnant wages, were becoming more and more militant, well Mrs Thatcher was a gift at the right time, now was the time to de-industrialise and become a full on services nation, while the Chinese realised at the same time what was happening and could build everything cheaper and faster. The US corporations also saw the profit in moving to China and hence the US industrial base also became devastated. One thing they forgot in their greed, Industrial nations since the industrial revolution have always been the wealthiest and most powerful. even if you diverge your investments and go green, you still need an industrial base.
It was all about the Benjamins and follow the money was not even realised, while the unions and the working class took the rap.

[Good old]

I can see what Tommy is. I can see the nationalistic vibes that did more than anything else to promote the SNP, and secure an English, Brexit.

Considering most of what you have to say is no more than a rehash of you extensive attempts to prove how much you dislike the Labour Party and it's politics.
Let's just get the national issue clear. To start with yes I'm a Nationalist , I want what I see as the best for my country just as you say you do. And that's where the complication sets in..In international terms UK is our country ,you don't believe in it. I do. So may I say your nationalism tends toward a rather more tribal version taking us all backwards in many respects . Everyone in the brexit  debate was a nationalist , and yet they completely opposed each other.
The movement toward a nationalist independent state in Scotland is quiet different to what is happening in England. Because  you can argue that's all you want, as Borch, pointed out.  As a whole your country didn't even want brexit ,
Not a nationalistic issue for them it seems.
This in part is why I claim the nationalist issue is not over riding in England, Brexit was helped along by a nationalistic surge, yes ,possibly knee jerk for many. Many remainers gave Boris, the nod purely to bring the country back to something resembling sanity. Those people in particular will now wait to see what happens to them due to the way they voted.  They will think twice if it hasn't helped them.
Brexit is an issue, an issue that will evolve  within governance that doesn't claim to be strictly nationalistic  as it does in Scotland.  Ask UKP, how much the English, actually want a Nationalist government.
There is a lot more to being a true nationalist than just , shutting oneself up with your own set of Arseholes. And accepting the knife  from the front . That's a recipe for sitting in your own shit and forgetting to duck

[Sheepy]

Well you were in a minority then as ever.

Either way, it won't him spreading we are all doomed.

[DeppityDawg]

Maybe I should have used your monitor, you wouldn't have to ask then would you. I think your probably right,Labour should have just fallen into line with the less than 52% of the total electorate on a single issue. It would have stopped the nation getting bored to tears ,with the Westminster infighting and begging Boris, to relieve the pain.
One minute the moan is they opposed Brexit ,problem. Next it's they were to quiet,problem. It's old news. And all that's going to matter is that Brexit will be judged on results.
I opposed Brexit, I didn't have a brain transplant when the result didn't please , so I,ll keep saying I oppose it. In the same way ,because the nation asks for Tory  it will  not stop me slagging them off, it's all part of British democracy, and I don't understand anyone opposing something until they are told not to, that's a very dangerous practice to develop  in a free country.

Ah right. I see. Said the blind man. My understanding of 'democratic' decisions must be all wrong then? Sometimes I'm grateful that we have the wonderful wisdom of the liberal left to keep us all right.

You seem to spend a lot of energy going on about "nationalists". There's nothing wrong with nationalism. I'm one myself. Is that a problem?

[Thomas]

Well you were in a minority then as ever.

[papasmurf]

I opposed Brexit, I didn't have a brain transplant when the result didn't please , so I,ll keep saying I oppose it. In the same way ,because the nation asks for Tory  it will  not stop me slagging them off, it's all part of British democracy, and I don't understand anyone opposing something until they are told not to, that's a very dangerous practice to develop  in a free country.

Precisely. I only voted remain because I knew the Tories would make a bog of Brexit and have their trousers collectively taken down by any trade deal with America.