Margaret Thatcher split off topic

[Thomas]

You have to understand the situation we were in in 2014. Back then the parliamentary party was - as it remained - majority Blairite. But the party membership had been hollowed out too by large numbers leaving in disgust. Thus the much smaller rump of a membership also had a Blairite majority. This was before the mass influx of genuine progressives into the party that followed the 2015 election, whose numbers from 2015 onwards swamped the Blairites. Before that the Blairites were almost as strong in what remained of the membership as they were in the PLP. Ed Miliband had some genuinely progressive instincts but he was hampered as leader by the might of the Blairites. It is worth bearing in mind that a majority of the membership rump and of the PLP had favoured the uber-Blairite David Miliband over Ed in the 2010 leadership contest, and it was only the union vote that swung it for Ed.

Ed Miliband was thus very much the prisoner of the Blairites who could have destroyed him at any time, and was forced to dance to their tune, which of course meant cooperating with the hated Tories in Scotland in 2014. More generally, Ed kept making left wing noises but constantly had to backtrack all the time to keep the Blairites on board. He thus made enough frightening noises to allow the usual media voices to portray him as a dangerous radical (red Ed), whilst actually not having policies anywhere near radical enough to make a difference or to win over the struggling masses.

Corbyn internally was much stronger than Ed because he had the backing of a mass membership that now greatly outnumbered the Blairites. Yet he failed to use this strength internally with sufficient ruthlessness. He should have empowered that membership with automatic reselection, and binding votes at conference, whilst fully democratising  the organs of the party. Let the membership be his strength. But he lacked the ruthlessness to do this and preferred to try and keep the Blairites on board if he could. Big mistake. They hated him far more than they hated the Tories, with whom they were much more willing to cooperate when it suited them.

Corbyn also eventually caved in to Starmer and others over our Brexit strategy, against his own better judgement. I must confess that I personally bought into many of the arguments in favour of a second vote and could recite them now if it were at all relevant. But in hindsight it certainly cost Labour the votes of a certain demographic.

sorry steve but i dont agree.

You cant keep blaming the blairites for labour getting into bed with the tories in scotland , we arent just talking 2014 , its been happening since , and on corbyns watch with his henchman leonard in charge. See my article above earlier in the thread.

Corbynites and blairites both told us its better to accept tory rule as part of the disuntied kingdom than being independent. Theres no going back now for either faction in scotland , you have made your bed wae us and now lie in it.

Corbyn internally was much stronger than Ed because he had the backing of a mass membership that now greatly outnumbered the Blairites. Yet he failed to use this strength internally with sufficient ruthlessness. He should have empowered that membership with automatic reselection, and binding votes at conference, whilst fully democratising  the organs of the party. Let the membership be his strength. But he lacked the ruthlessness to do this and preferred to try and keep the Blairites on board if he could. Big mistake. They hated him far more than they hated the Tories, with whom they were much more willing to cooperate when it suited them.

I think we have all been aware of the internal stuggle within your party for the last five years now. During my discussions with good old , i stuggled to keep a straight face when he talked to you about "labour party unity".

Where was that labour party unity over the last five years when blairites were jumping up at every occassion to knife corbyn and co in the back at every turn?

On top of that , both you and good old , corbynite and labourite , have both talked about the "tory controlled media".

I have went into detail on my opinion on that , but whaty i want to say as well the blairites hate the tory controlled media that much they were on every single outlet as often as possible  , using that very same tory media to bring down corbyn.

With friends like starmer and co who needs enemies?

Corbyn also eventually caved in to Starmer and others over our Brexit strategy, against his own better judgement. I must confess that I personally bought into many of the arguments in favour of a second vote and could recite them now if it were at all relevant. But in hindsight it certainly cost Labour the votes of a certain demographic.

I didnt.

Too many english remainers were letting hearts overrule their heads. It was palin to see over five years england was determined to leave the eu , what was it five electoral kickings in five years remainers took by the majority anti eu english public , so much so the height of hysterical english remainer fantasy was that infamous bbc graphic from the euro elections last year that tried to show a remain majority for the euro elections?

By being anti democratic , you turned brexit  and brexit supporters in to a martyr cause for the ordinary english people , who saw clearly how anti democratically wrong it was to hold a referendum and then fail to implement the result because you didnt agree with it.

Two big massive constitutional issues over the last decade , scot indy and brexit , and labour have been on the wrong side of the public mood in both of them.

Im struggling to see how a major uk political party with a century of experience could be so feckin blind  , out of touch and so massively naive not once , but twice in succession.

This is what happens when you stand in a darkened room shouting at each other and talking among the party faithfull.........you fail to engage with those outside your bubble .

We have went round talking to people in scotland after the scot indy loss in 2014 , and listening , while labour stood carping about socialism , the poor and nhs , but being massively out of touch with the world we live in today.

....because you arent listening.

[Thomas]

So the Scots Nats , need to crush Labour ,  to  have any relevance out side of an independent Scotland. That's not very clever it's frigging obvious .

What?

We have crushed labour , and what are you on about relevance outside of an indy scotland?

It was also obvious that it was in both Tory and Labour interests to retain the Union

So what are you talking about , getting on your high political horse , waffling on about left centre champagne socialism and the evil of the tories when you now freely admit they are that evil labour work hand in glove with them to retain your union?

Every scottish man woman and child has been watching in disgust for years now how those laughable deeply held labour party political convictions get thrown out the windae as soon as british nationalism feels threatened .

As ever ignore the obvious propaganda value  of high lighting  Labours activity in that respect .

Im not ignoring it , im displaying it for the good people of england to see how much labour hate the tories  when in scotland they are virtually the same british nationalist party along with the remnants of the limp dems.

Keep ranting . But no sweets  For that miserable effort.

No rants here good old. You keep bringing out those labour party belters , and i will keep shooting them down in flames.

[Thomas]

Afraid that's the effect you have Thomas, don't be to disappointed , I'll nudge that ego of yours again some time.

I will hang by your every word .

I love  British Parliamentary democracy , can't get enough of it

So do i old bean.

When you have anti democrats getting elected on a party ticket to implement a referendum result they , and they alone held and asked the ordinary people their opinion , then spent years trying to wriggle out of the result because they got the "wrong answer" , democracy allows the people to have another verdict on their behaviour and vote them out for being anti democratic.

Thats what happened last decemebr , democracy and the people spoke , much to your annoyance.

Terrible thing this democracy lark int it good old when it works against you?

Especially when it shows  it can not be ignored because of convenience

It didnt stop you trying to ignore it , and treating the ordinary people as fools.

You forgot one thing though , the very people you shat on , you had to go back to eventually and ask for thier votes again. With a predictable outcome.

Now your mantra has morphed from the silent mythical  remain majority will stop brexit to it was all corbyns fault. LMFAO.

Thomas, I will take brexit , because  democracy has given it the nod

yeev no choice good old .It s happening much to your disgust. The people didnt agree with you in your country.

Just like the end of the blair years though , somehow i dont think you will ever get over it.

It better live up to what it was sold on or democracy will spit in its eye

It was sold on the english people leaving the eu and all the other red lines  , and democracy certainly spat in your anti democratic eye didnt it?

They once said michael foots manifesto in 1983 was labours longest suicide note in history...............somehow sir keir knight of the realm starmers anti democratic brexit suicide note might just have eclipsed that by a large margin last december.

The stupidity of you blairites knows no end.

It's got two chances  and one of them will be hell.

Drama queen.

You were telling the english and welsh that for the last five years since before you lost the referendum , and they politely listened to you and stuck two fingers up to you and said they have every confidence in their country unlike you anti english blairites.

So here's to riding that crazy horse called democracy through some very difficult terrain .

lifes a bitch mate int it?

[Sheepy]

Incidentally, I too was part of the mass influx of new progressive and genuinely left wing members, joining the party in 2015 soon after Corbyn became leader. We were not made to feel welcome by the Blairite old guard I distinctly recall.

Funny old world, basically you are admitting what we the populists told you all along, you were being manipulated by the new labour party machine. You certainly won't the first or last generation that Westminster thinks it can manipulate at will.

We have not been manipulated. We have fought for what we believe in both inside and outside the party. None of us will lift a finger to campaign for anything or anyone not truly left wing progressive. We have already decided that. We'll not be wasting any effort campaigning for Blairites. We intend to be a thorn in their side, and the more they move away from socialism, and the more comfortable they become with the filthy rich again, and with Thatcherism, the bigger the thorn we will be.

Well whatever, if you want to be heard you have to get a fair hearing via the electorate, the present system makes that very difficult if not near on impossible. idealism isn't bad for democracy, the system that shuts it down and manipulates it for others means is.

[srb7677]

Incidentally, I too was part of the mass influx of new progressive and genuinely left wing members, joining the party in 2015 soon after Corbyn became leader. We were not made to feel welcome by the Blairite old guard I distinctly recall.

Funny old world, basically you are admitting what we the populists told you all along, you were being manipulated by the new labour party machine. You certainly won't the first or last generation that Westminster thinks it can manipulate at will.

We have not been manipulated. We have fought for what we believe in both inside and outside the party. None of us will lift a finger to campaign for anything or anyone not truly left wing progressive. We have already decided that. We'll not be wasting any effort campaigning for Blairites. We intend to be a thorn in their side, and the more they move away from socialism, and the more comfortable they become with the filthy rich again, and with Thatcherism, the bigger the thorn we will be.

[Sheepy]

Incidentally, I too was part of the mass influx of new progressive and genuinely left wing members, joining the party in 2015 soon after Corbyn became leader. We were not made to feel welcome by the Blairite old guard I distinctly recall.

Funny old world, basically you are admitting what we the populists told you all along, you were being manipulated by the new labour party machine. You certainly won't the first or last generation that Westminster thinks it can manipulate at will.

[srb7677]

Incidentally, I too was part of the mass influx of new progressive and genuinely left wing members, joining the party in 2015 soon after Corbyn became leader. We were not made to feel welcome by the Blairite old guard I distinctly recall.

[srb7677]

In 2014 in scotland , while running around carping how evil the tories were , you allowed the blairites to get into bed with the tories to stop scottish indy makeing you look silly to the scottish nation who punished you accordingly.

You have to understand the situation we were in in 2014. Back then the parliamentary party was - as it remained - majority Blairite. But the party membership had been hollowed out too by large numbers leaving in disgust. Thus the much smaller rump of a membership also had a Blairite majority. This was before the mass influx of genuine progressives into the party that followed the 2015 election, whose numbers from 2015 onwards swamped the Blairites. Before that the Blairites were almost as strong in what remained of the membership as they were in the PLP. Ed Miliband had some genuinely progressive instincts but he was hampered as leader by the might of the Blairites. It is worth bearing in mind that a majority of the membership rump and of the PLP had favoured the uber-Blairite David Miliband over Ed in the 2010 leadership contest, and it was only the union vote that swung it for Ed.

Ed Miliband was thus very much the prisoner of the Blairites who could have destroyed him at any time, and was forced to dance to their tune, which of course meant cooperating with the hated Tories in Scotland in 2014. More generally, Ed kept making left wing noises but constantly had to backtrack all the time to keep the Blairites on board. He thus made enough frightening noises to allow the usual media voices to portray him as a dangerous radical (red Ed), whilst actually not having policies anywhere near radical enough to make a difference or to win over the struggling masses.

Corbyn internally was much stronger than Ed because he had the backing of a mass membership that now greatly outnumbered the Blairites. Yet he failed to use this strength internally with sufficient ruthlessness. He should have empowered that membership with automatic reselection, and binding votes at conference, whilst fully democratising  the organs of the party. Let the membership be his strength. But he lacked the ruthlessness to do this and preferred to try and keep the Blairites on board if he could. Big mistake. They hated him far more than they hated the Tories, with whom they were much more willing to cooperate when it suited them.

Corbyn also eventually caved in to Starmer and others over our Brexit strategy, against his own better judgement. I must confess that I personally bought into many of the arguments in favour of a second vote and could recite them now if it were at all relevant. But in hindsight it certainly cost Labour the votes of a certain demographic.

[Good old]

Now, now ,Mister Dawg, If we don%u2019t agree on vital issues that has to be problem of sorts.

You know, I think you are right? I don't actually understand your argument. I don't think you do either, because you don't even appear to have one. This thread/forum simply seems to be a vehicle to vent your frustrations about brexit. Anyone answering you seems to get dragged into this rant, they don't necessarily even have to state an opinion on it

You obviously haven%u2019t noticed or ignored the fact that I have received close on the full put down armoury Of Thomas, and others on here .

Put downs? No, it looks to me like he's trying to engage you in debate about the labour parties record in Scotland, but you seem less than willing to reciprocate

I am actually a slightly left of centre , individual that detests the idea of Brexit, and above all fully supports our parliamentary democracy ,as practiced within the bounds of what is accepted by law and precedent.   You would think that makes me the No enemy of the state , because I don%u2019t look like falling line with the brexit motivated Tory movement.

I know you are 'left of centre'. That couldn't be more obvious - but I was questioning your usage of the word nationalist(s). And you replied of my being a Nationalist, that it would only be a problem "when your ideas for our country oppose mine"

So I asked would it be a problem if YOUR ideas for the country oppose mine? You didn't respond, probably because you don't understand the relevance of the question

So don%u2019t feel to hard done by its very much a two way street .

You don't need to worry about me, Good Old. I think I'll be ok.

All right mister Dawg, I'm not aware  we had an argument , you are obviously looking for one. So seeing as I'm so thick by your standards , and dont understand an argument of my own ,that I didn't have with you. Spell your problem out ,as that's the only way I can judge whether I agree with you or not.
Seeing as Thomas, set into something I said that had nothing to do with Scotland , why would I let him drag me into the politics of  a country I couldn't give a toss about, as it happens I couldn't give a toss about his sarcastic references to age intelligence literary skills etc. either but his arguments are so sad and repetitive he needs that sort of crap in there.
I can't even be bothered to check back. But if I missed replying to that specific part of your question. Reading the question again how the hell can I have a problem with my own ideas, I'm sure  you might, have a problem with my ideas I don't ,I would  not hold it against you if you did.
The fact is , and surely you know what I meant . We could both consider ourselves nationalists ,if you don't then why are you concerned?  Yet. want something different for our country ,that must even for you represent a problem . Surely it has to be better if we want the same things.
I won't be worrying about you mate, and if you do have a bone to pick with me make it clear what it is because up to now you haven't. I can't try to put your points down if you haven't actually made them. If you are going to try educating me as Thomas, likes to try to his own ideas don't expect any success .

[DeppityDawg]

Now, now ,Mister Dawg, If we don%u2019t agree on vital issues that has to be problem of sorts.

You know, I think you are right? I don't actually understand your argument. I don't think you do either, because you don't even appear to have one. This thread/forum simply seems to be a vehicle to vent your frustrations about brexit. Anyone answering you seems to get dragged into this rant, they don't necessarily even have to state an opinion on it

You obviously haven%u2019t noticed or ignored the fact that I have received close on the full put down armoury Of Thomas, and others on here .

Put downs? No, it looks to me like he's trying to engage you in debate about the labour parties record in Scotland, but you seem less than willing to reciprocate

I am actually a slightly left of centre , individual that detests the idea of Brexit, and above all fully supports our parliamentary democracy ,as practiced within the bounds of what is accepted by law and precedent.   You would think that makes me the No enemy of the state , because I don%u2019t look like falling line with the brexit motivated Tory movement.

I know you are 'left of centre'. That couldn't be more obvious - but I was questioning your usage of the word nationalist(s). And you replied of my being a Nationalist, that it would only be a problem "when your ideas for our country oppose mine"

So I asked would it be a problem if YOUR ideas for the country oppose mine? You didn't respond, probably because you don't understand the relevance of the question

So don%u2019t feel to hard done by its very much a two way street .

You don't need to worry about me, Good Old. I think I'll be ok.

[Sheepy]

Scotland's Better Together councils: Labour still in bed with Tories

Today The National exposes Leonard and his party's duplicity over the issue of cooperation with the Tories. Leonard might say Scottish Labour won't work with the Tories come the referendum – the branch manager might well be overruled by head office on that one – but in local authorities across Scotland, Labour continue to work hand in glove with Conservatives.

The most egregious example is the City of Aberdeen Council where nine Labour councillors remain suspended from the party more than two years after then leader Kezia Dugdale ordered their suspension for forming a coalition with the Conservatives to take control of the council.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17762392.scotland-s-better-together-councils-labour-still-bed-tories/

lmfao. Its like taking sweeties aff a wean wae you good old.



20 weeks to brexit mate.

So the Scots Nats , need to crush Labour ,  to  have any relevance out side of an independent Scotland. That's not very clever it's frigging obvious .  It was also obvious that it was in both Tory and Labour interests to retain the Union . As ever ignore the obvious propaganda value  of high lighting  Labours activity in that respect . Keep ranting . But no sweets  For that miserable effort.

No need Labour are already crushed. all of that psychology they handed out went tits up.

[Good old]

Scotland's Better Together councils: Labour still in bed with Tories

Today The National exposes Leonard and his party's duplicity over the issue of cooperation with the Tories. Leonard might say Scottish Labour won't work with the Tories come the referendum – the branch manager might well be overruled by head office on that one – but in local authorities across Scotland, Labour continue to work hand in glove with Conservatives.

The most egregious example is the City of Aberdeen Council where nine Labour councillors remain suspended from the party more than two years after then leader Kezia Dugdale ordered their suspension for forming a coalition with the Conservatives to take control of the council.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17762392.scotland-s-better-together-councils-labour-still-bed-tories/

lmfao. Its like taking sweeties aff a wean wae you good old.



20 weeks to brexit mate.

So the Scots Nats , need to crush Labour ,  to  have any relevance out side of an independent Scotland. That's not very clever it's frigging obvious .  It was also obvious that it was in both Tory and Labour interests to retain the Union . As ever ignore the obvious propaganda value  of high lighting  Labours activity in that respect . Keep ranting . But no sweets  For that miserable effort.

[Good old]

Do you know Thomas, I'm really far from angry about any of this . But I'm bored shitless at your school boy style efforts page after boring page to come up looking like the brightest kid in the class.
You achieve f**k all basically because Im still here unimpressed by your pathetic manoeuvring . You carry on entertaining  Snoopy, Sleepy, whatever, and the rest of the little club you perform for . I don't accept more than small part of your drivel , I just accept that you will repeat yourselves till hell comes down, sometime shortly after 20weeks time.
So see you in hell.

ah yer back to being bored now. Is it because you dont have an answer to the many real points that are being thrown at you by not just me , but others such as srb?

you seem really angry that democracy is finally being enacted in 20 weeks.

Isnt calling it hell just a wee bit over the top mate?

Calm down dear.

Afraid that's the effect you have Thomas, don't be to disappointed , I'll nudge that ego of yours again some time.
I love  British Parliamentary democracy , can't get enough of it . Especially when it shows  it can not be ignored because of convenience . Thomas, I will take brexit , because  democracy has given it the nod . It better live up to what it was sold on or democracy will spit in its eye. It's got two chances  and one of them will be hell. So here's to riding that crazy horse called democracy through some very difficult terrain .

[Thomas]

Scotland's Better Together councils: Labour still in bed with Tories

Today The National exposes Leonard and his party's duplicity over the issue of cooperation with the Tories. Leonard might say Scottish Labour won't work with the Tories come the referendum – the branch manager might well be overruled by head office on that one – but in local authorities across Scotland, Labour continue to work hand in glove with Conservatives.

The most egregious example is the City of Aberdeen Council where nine Labour councillors remain suspended from the party more than two years after then leader Kezia Dugdale ordered their suspension for forming a coalition with the Conservatives to take control of the council.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/17762392.scotland-s-better-together-councils-labour-still-bed-tories/

lmfao. Its like taking sweeties aff a wean wae you good old.



20 weeks to brexit mate.

[Thomas]

Scottish Labour in 'civil war' over Tory council coalitions

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/scottish-labour-civil-war-tory-council-coalitions-66050