Margaret Thatcher split off topic

[Thomas]

Not content with their absolute kicking trying to stich up the english voter over brexit last december , the labour mob in scotland now want to stitch up the scottish voter over the union to make it impossible for us to leave..

Labour sub-faction the Scottish Fabians this weekend published a call for "a new Act Of Union", an idea that's been kicking around in the party for some time since failed branch office manager Kezia Dugdale came up with it in 2016.

And at first it sounds almost intelligent and democratic, proposing a clearly defined path by which any of the four constituent nations of the UK could become independent.

But then you get to the small print.

The Scottish Parliament has 129 seats. Under the Fabian proposals, two successive Parliaments would need, in a proportional electoral system custom-built to prevent majorities, to secure at least 87 seats in favour of a referendum for it to happen.

Even in the crushing SNP landslide of 2011, where pro-independence parties got a bigger vote share (47.7%) than any UK governing party has done for more than half a century, they still only secured 71 seats. It would be all but mathematically impossible under the Holyrood system to get anywhere near 87 without "gaming the system" with new list parties – a concept Unionists are already bitterly whining about as "cheating".

(No peacetime UK government in history, including coalitions, has ever met the 67% threshold being demanded here, by any measure. The nearest was the 2010 Tory-Lib Dem coalition, which could claim to represent 59% of the electorate – 36% Tories and 23% LDs. In terms of seats the closest was Labour's 1997 landslide, which got 63% of seats but on just 43% of the vote, in itself highly undemocratic.)

Even if such a miracle were achieved, the referendum itself would also require a two-thirds majority. And while on the face of it a "supermajority" for such a dramatic change sounds a defensible position, the reality of it is this:

Even if independence won a second referendum by 66-34, a colossal margin of 32 points, Scotland would be held prisoner against its will by England, and would be forbidden from even asking the question again for at least another three decades even if public support reached 100%.

More concisely: 66% Yes, 34% No would be treated as a win for No.

It's effectively an announcement that Labour would simply refuse to honour a clear democratic vote, and then outlaw democracy for 30 years. It's on a par with current suggestions in some quarters that Donald Trump is contemplating cancelling the US Presidential election in November on the pretence of coronavirus because he thinks he's going to lose – an idea which everyone is quite rightly reacting to with outrage

talk about never ever learning lessons.

In writing it down, the Scottish Fabians have revealed how Scottish Labour really sees the Union – as an infinite jail sentence without hope of parole, a hostile takeover of Scotland enacted in 1707 to endure forever rather than a treaty between voluntary and equal partners which either of them is free to withdraw from.

None of which is exactly a shock, of course, but it's good to see it finally laid out in the open in black and white. We wish Labour – a party currently sitting at around 15% (and falling) in opinion polls with around 40% of its own voters supporting independence – the very best of British luck in getting elected on a platform of making Scots the slaves of England for all time

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https://wingsoverscotland.com/englands-prisoners/#more-117217

[Good old]

The outstanding question remains , Why is it so important for a Scots Nat to see Labours destruction in Scotland reinacted in England?

Is this another example of you ridiculous postings?

This insinuation the problem of labours downfall in england is all down to the "scot nats"?

Are we back blaming everything else bar where the problem actually lays?

It was i and my mind control i had on forums such as this where i persuaded the northern english like cromwell or deppity dawg and many many others to vote against labours ridiculous anti democratic brexit policy last december?

Instead of denigrating your fellow countrymen in England , with the insinuation they are too stupid to know how to vote and are easy prey for the "scot nats"/ "evil tories" / etc etc etc , how about taking responsibility for your own actions in your own country and just admitting for a wee moment you might just possibly be shite as a political party and have completely misjudged the mood of your fellow countrymen?

The Poor!!!

What about the poor!?

I know mate. we can help the poor later once you have dealt with all your wee problems first eh?

The NHS!?

Save the NHS!!!!!

Well we in scotland are doing pretty well in control of our NHS thank you , while your labour collegues in wales seem to have a wee bit of a problem.

I think you need to be a wee bit more respectfull of your fellow countrymen in england first dont you  before the next election otherwise you wont get to save the poor and nhs?

The insinuation is you have done absolutely nothing in pages and pages other than let me and anyone looking know how much  you hate Labour . There is no insinuation that all Labours problems in England are down to  the SNs  Only you say Labour has Problems and no future .The SNs dont.. I don't.. You can't respect that without ridicule. it seems.
Then two more made up quotes . You say I need to respect my fellow countrymen ,thanks for another lecture . But you need to respect every bodies intelligence if you think Making up quotes ,makes your hatred of Labour ,any the more warranted. So why is it so important to you that Labour is destroyed  in England? I keep asking but you avoid the question  other than to come out with another load of old bollocks ,peppered with a few mild put downs.

[Thomas]

Bit of your make believe you mean . That's all right , you must be  desperate.

but if you actually read through your insane ramblings on this thread and political morals which blow with the wind , you will see why im taking the piss.

listen to yourself , you are all over the place.

[Thomas]

Never any need to apologise for disagreeing on a politics forum. Such places would be dull indeed if we all agree all the time. I do appreciate the fact, however, that you and I at least seem able to disagree with mutual respect, and can at least partly see where each other is coming from.

Even though I am a Labour party member and you are not, I am reluctant to overtly disagree with you on the internal dynamics of our party in Scotland, since you are local on the ground, so to speak, whereas I live at the opposite end of this island we share, many hundreds of miles away from Scotland.

You can see my point though steve , and why its hilarious listening to some labour blairite muppet waffling on to someone in scotland about the evil tories. 8 years on from when they first started to get into the bed  with the tories in scotland , people like good old STILL dont understand why they dont get the "protect us from the tory vote " anymore.

Its tragically hilarious.

But it seems logically obvious to me that the mass influx of left wing progressives and idealists that occurred in my party in England is far less likely to have occurred in Scotland because it is blatantly obvious even from this far away that the SNP is where most of the idealistic, progressive vote was going up there. So whilst the left wing progressive idealists became a large majority of the membership in England, this is not likely to have become the case in Scotland. Does it not therefore follow logically that the Scottish Labour party membership is likely to be a comparatively much smaller rump than in England? And by default much more heavily dominated by Blairites, a few true lefties notwithstanding?

Ok but i thought i already explained this.

This is all true to an extent , but there is far more to it than just attracting the progressive vote. The SNP are of course a very broad church.

Certainly from the perspective of hundreds of miles away, a willingness to side with the Tories against the SNP looks very Blairite.

To a degree steve , but ne thing i noticed really early on on interwebby forums was wether they were ukip/ bnp/tory/labour/liberal/etc etc , anyone who saw themselves as british would put aside any internal political bickering to bandy together to attack the SNP , who they all saw as a threat.

Scottish politics for many years now has been along unionist and nationalist lines , with of course labour leaders telling scottish voters to vote tory or liberal to keep out snp . The blairites may very well have shouted loudest , but they werent the only ones prepared to fling those high political morals right out the window to protect their precious union.

Which seems to me to be why the Tories are overtaking Labour up there, or at least are close to doing so

The tories have overtaken labour in scotland , and not just recently either but  number of years back.

We go back to what i was saying about nationalist/unionist voting , the scottish unionist vote is gettng behind the party seen as best placed to stop the snp. Nothing to do with blairites to be honest.

And in my personal experiences, the left up there and more generally do not seem to think much differently from the left locally and from me,

ok but what are you hinting at?

There are socialists and left wingers in every country on this earth more or less. Try telling a socialist in dublin or a left winger in France they dont think much differently to you in england so therfore must hand over control of their country to london , and see how much you get laughed at.

but many of us on the left view the SNP as a fellow progressive force with whom we could have worked under a hung parliament.

Thats would never have happened and i explained amny a time why this was so. The SNP leadership dangled that carrot deliberately knowing full well if labour were ever stupid enough to go down that route , not only would the scottish branch go ballistic over it , but the english voter would annihilate labour worse than anything brexit last december did to your party.

You need to pick apart mate idealistic partnerships with the brutal cloak and dagger of politics.

But in short, we on the true left, whilst favouring the union, do not see you as absolute enemies. I do not and I myself am a representative sample of us. If you want to see the Blairite stance, look to good old. There lies the main problem with Labour in Scotland I still feel.

Therin lies your problem mate , you are when all is said and done a unionist party and we are not. Its that simple. Thats why politically speaking the snp and labour will always be at each otheres throats no matter who is in charge.

[Good old]

Are those all genuine quotes of good old?

Because if so he is clearly making himself look ridiculous, aided and abetted by you throwing his own silly words back at him.

Just a wee bit of a satirical post steve to highlight the never ending nonsense this character seems to come out with.

Bit of your make believe you mean . That's all right , you must be  desperate.

[Thomas]

The outstanding question remains , Why is it so important for a Scots Nat to see Labours destruction in Scotland reinacted in England?

Is this another example of you ridiculous postings?

This insinuation the problem of labours downfall in england is all down to the "scot nats"?

Are we back blaming everything else bar where the problem actually lays?

It was i and my mind control i had on forums such as this where i persuaded the northern english like cromwell or deppity dawg and many many others to vote against labours ridiculous anti democratic brexit policy last december?

Instead of denigrating your fellow countrymen in England , with the insinuation they are too stupid to know how to vote and are easy prey for the "scot nats"/ "evil tories" / etc etc etc , how about taking responsibility for your own actions in your own country and just admitting for a wee moment you might just possibly be shite as a political party and have completely misjudged the mood of your fellow countrymen?

The Poor!!!

What about the poor!?

I know mate. we can help the poor later once you have dealt with all your wee problems first eh?

The NHS!?

Save the NHS!!!!!

Well we in scotland are doing pretty well in control of our NHS thank you , while your labour collegues in wales seem to have a wee bit of a problem.

I think you need to be a wee bit more respectfull of your fellow countrymen in england first dont you  before the next election otherwise you wont get to save the poor and nhs?

[Thomas]

Are those all genuine quotes of good old?

Because if so he is clearly making himself look ridiculous, aided and abetted by you throwing his own silly words back at him.

Just a wee bit of a satirical post steve to highlight the never ending nonsense this character seems to come out with.

[Good old]

So the Scots Nats , need to crush Labour ,  to  have any relevance out side of an independent Scotland. That's not very clever it's frigging obvious .

What?

We have crushed labour , and what are you on about relevance outside of an indy scotland?

It was also obvious that it was in both Tory and Labour interests to retain the Union

So what are you talking about , getting on your high political horse , waffling on about left centre champagne socialism and the evil of the tories when you now freely admit they are that evil labour work hand in glove with them to retain your union?

Every scottish man woman and child has been watching in disgust for years now how those laughable deeply held labour party political convictions get thrown out the windae as soon as british nationalism feels threatened .

As ever ignore the obvious propaganda value  of high lighting  Labours activity in that respect .

Im not ignoring it , im displaying it for the good people of england to see how much labour hate the tories  when in scotland they are virtually the same british nationalist party along with the remnants of the limp dems.

Keep ranting . But no sweets  For that miserable effort.

No rants here good old. You keep bringing out those labour party belters , and i will keep shooting them down in flames.

Another example of everyone needs to hate Labour , Why because I say so. from you.. There is no point in indulging in a bout of whataboutery  with you  much to the disappointment of yourself , and a few others here.  You spill out pages and pages of responding to every word said ,and some you insert . Souped up with dollops of SNP propaganda.  Only to end up with one  thing being abundantly clear . You hate the  Labour ,party and most things remotely attached to it . Oh  that is unless it's policies are used by the SNP.
The outstanding question remains , Why is it so important for a Scots Nat to see Labours destruction in Scotland reinacted in England?  This started ,when I dared to suggest Starmer , could improve Labours chances  of pressuring Boris.  You were only ever interested in telling the world how much you hate Labour, and why everyone else should.
As for shooting anything down . You are more akin to tilting at windmills, man.

[Good old]

All right mister Dawg, I'm not aware  we had an argument , you are obviously looking for one. So seeing as I'm so thick by your standards , and dont understand an argument of my own ,that I didn't have with you. Spell your problem out ,as that's the only way I can judge whether I agree with you or not.

You were, imho, using the term 'nationalist' perjoratively, as if anyone 'nationalist' was some kind of brownshirt. Its a popular left wing bogey man image I know, but it gets tedious. There are those on the far left every bit as unpleasant as the far right, and this narrative of 'good' left versus 'evil' right gets a bit boring. I've seen many "socialists" also link the word to Brexit, as if Brexit is the product of some far right movement intent on installing a 1930s style fascist dictatorship in the UK - a laughable 'conspiracy' theory in a country where we barely even bother prosecuting criminals anymore, let alone 'oppressing' dissent. Dissent of course, being any fruit-bat far left, progressive, climate zealot, gender or race based complaint that the world is against them -as far as Im concerned, they can all f*ck right off, but that doesn't make me a brownshirt or a fecking nazi

Seeing as Thomas, set into something I said that had nothing to do with Scotland , why would I let him drag me into the politics of  a country I couldn't give a toss about, as it happens I couldn't give a toss about his sarcastic references to age intelligence literary skills etc. either but his arguments are so sad and repetitive he needs that sort of crap in there.

After reading that paragraph (and other lines like it), I'm not surprised that Thomas has turned you over - he's a Scottish Nationalist, what do you expect him to do? Send you some virtual flowers ffs?

The fact is , and surely you know what I meant . We could both consider ourselves nationalists ,if you don't then why are you concerned?  Yet. want something different for our country ,that must even for you represent a problem . Surely it has to be better if we want the same things.

I don't want the same things for my country as the majority of pandering liberal/socialists. The reason lies in the comment I highlighted, where you seem to assume what YOU want for our country overrides what I might want. That somehow, the Liberal/left hold some kind of morally superior high ground and that anyone not on board with the latest woke 'message' is routinely villified as a nazi, "nationalist" or some other kind of thick, low life c**t. I detest liberals. Simples.

I won't be worrying about you mate, and if you do have a bone to pick with me make it clear what it is because up to now you haven't. I can't try to put your points down if you haven't actually made them. If you are going to try educating me as Thomas, likes to try to his own ideas don't expect any success

I'm not trying to educate you - its you who have numerous times now told me that I "don't understand" - there are enough points aboce for you to have a field day - bring a fecking barbeque and some cans if you like. "Putting your points down" about seems to sum up your approach so far - as if someone who may appear to hold a different view to you is some kind of vermin to be exterminated. As for Thomas, you keep mentioning him, and yet you keep responding to his posts even though you claim not to care - that in itself tells me your argument, if there even is one, is not standing up to scrutiny. I'd say you've picked the wrong poster to have a weak argument with

As I suspected you are more interested in an argument ,than actually contributing anything . No need for beer or barbecue. This is brief because most of that lies in your imagination.
Firstly I used the term Nationalist, in the broadest of terms , by saying we are all nationalists, yet can still want different things . That situation can prove a problem for both parties.
Now. If you want to take offence at  that help yourself. You might not be a fascist . Happy for you. I certainly don't fit the descriptions you refer to of people and things you Consider left wing . And good and evil ,what the F@@@ are you on about?
I said nothing to Thomas , of Scotland, he however introduced Scotland after he had questioned something else only remotely related. Once more your introducing something not there except in your head.
I think you are the one doing all the assuming . I only say I won't  be following your ideas in more than a few areas. You can do what you like .
I haven't once told you , you don't understand. What are you smoking? Neither do you educate me ,and you won't.. you keep mentioning Thomas, I respond.Oh shit done it again. My God, vermin! Extermination, your imagination is running riot  . I wont mention the name again, not when I'm talking to his self appointed  Deppity.

[srb7677]

sorry steve but i dont agree.

You can't keep blaming the blairites for labour getting into bed with the tories in scotland , we arent just talking 2014 , its been happening since , and on corbyns watch with his henchman leonard in charge. See my article above earlier in the thread.

Corbynites and blairites both told us its better to accept tory rule as part of the disuntied kingdom than being independent. Theres no going back now for either faction in scotland , you have made your bed wae us and now lie in it.

Never any need to apologise for disagreeing on a politics forum. Such places would be dull indeed if we all agree all the time. I do appreciate the fact, however, that you and I at least seem able to disagree with mutual respect, and can at least partly see where each other is coming from.

Even though I am a Labour party member and you are not, I am reluctant to overtly disagree with you on the internal dynamics of our party in Scotland, since you are local on the ground, so to speak, whereas I live at the opposite end of this island we share, many hundreds of miles away from Scotland.

But it seems logically obvious to me that the mass influx of left wing progressives and idealists that occurred in my party in England is far less likely to have occurred in Scotland because it is blatantly obvious even from this far away that the SNP is where most of the idealistic, progressive vote was going up there. So whilst the left wing progressive idealists became a large majority of the membership in England, this is not likely to have become the case in Scotland. Does it not therefore follow logically that the Scottish Labour party membership is likely to be a comparatively much smaller rump than in England? And by default much more heavily dominated by Blairites, a few true lefties notwithstanding?

Certainly from the perspective of hundreds of miles away, a willingness to side with the Tories against the SNP looks very Blairite. The recent quotations of good old advertises that in spades. The Blairite right frankly see the Tories as a lesser evil. A position that will never win favour in Scotland, not least because Scottish Tory supporters would rather vote for the real thing than it's Blairite imitation. Which seems to me to be why the Tories are overtaking Labour up there, or at least are close to doing so. Labour is throwing away the large anti-Tory vote by siding with the Tories, without actually winning over any Tory supporters to replace them.

But what I lack through not being local to Scotland, I do gain somewhat by being active within the Labour party itself, which provides it's own insights. I know many left wingers locally here in the southwest. But perhaps  more pertinently, on party forums I interact with many Labour members from right across the country, including in Scotland. And in my personal experiences, the left up there and more generally do not seem to think much differently from the left locally and from me, though some measure of resentment at the success of the SNP seems more widespread up there. I do pick that up.

There are nuances and exceptions of course, and much that we are discouraged from saying publicly. But many of us on the left do not see the SNP as a greater evil than the Tories. Indeed we can often understand and figure out some of the forces driving our former supporters to the SNP, which the Blairites totally fail to get. Though that might be easier for lefties who actually have the perspective of not being close to the ground up there

We were and are loathe to say this publicly because the Tories would use it against us, but many of us on the left view the SNP as a fellow progressive force with whom we could have worked under a hung parliament. Whether large swathes of the Scottish Labour left dissents from this I cannot know, but I have spoken to Scottish Labour left people online who, whilst often harbouring a greater sense of resentment against the success of the SNP, are willing to countenance cooperation with it. Genuine lefties usually want zero cooperation with Tories except upon rare issues where they agree. There is very little that the left ever agrees with the Tories on though. We on the left based upon my experience of the left would have been quite happy to cooperate with a second Scottish referendum if it came to it, in return for cooperation with Labour (under Corbyn) in it's implementation, UK wide, of the kind of progressive policies both parties approved of. Our leadership could never have said this publicly - such a prospect was used too effectively against us in 2015 - which is why we tried kicking it into the long grass of hypotheticals we do not want to get into discussing. We also attempted plausible deniability by claiming we would not do what we would in fact have done under such circumstances. After all, unlike the SNP we need English votes to succeed.

But in short, we on the true left, whilst favouring the union, do not see you as absolute enemies. I do not and I myself am a representative sample of us. If you want to see the Blairite stance, look to good old. There lies the main problem with Labour in Scotland I still feel.

[srb7677]

Nationalism is bad , really bad!

Ok mate, but what about british nationalism?

No thats good , really really good.

So who should i vote for then?

Dont vote tory , the tories are evil!!!

Ok but in scotland good old , labour and the tories work hand in hand.

Ahh!. ...but they arent evil when they work with us. Only when they arent working with us!

So who should i vote for ? In my constituency the tories are the ones challenging the snp. Should i vote snp?

No! Dont vote SNP! They are evil nationalists , vote tory.!!!

Im confused mate. I thought you said the tories are evil?

The tories are evil  except when they are working with labour. The snp is even more evil  , so vote tory! Rule Brittannia!

So where are you then on the political spectrum mate? Are you a left wing socialist?

Yep! im a left wing centre right socialist marxist globalist. Anything you want me to be! Just vote team GB!!!

Calm down good old. You`ll give yourself a heart attack !

I am calm. Vote team GB!!##

You haven't seen the new me. I've lost 25kg since New Year. Not ballet dancer slim, I'll grant you. But getting there. I'm a mean machine and I'm gonna trash-talk the evil tories  at the weigh-in.

Well done big man. Anyhow i think labour need to step up tae the plate if they want elected!

No-one can teach me anything about stepping up to the plate.

So what about brexit?

Hell on earth! End of the world! stop brexit!!!

So you think there should be a second referendum on brexit.?

and a third or fourth ,till we get the right answer!!

What about a second scottish indy ref?

No jock! Not you , just us !

We got the right answer in that one , so no more referendums ever again for you. Stop Brexit!

Ok but the people voted for brexit fair and square!

It wasnt fair and square ! we lost  ! Stop brexit!

It was fair!

No it wasnt. We lost. Leave lied better than remain , so it wasnt fair. Parliamentary democracy in the uk means we can refuse to implement the referendum if we want to , because its in the rules , and we make up the rules as we go along! Stop Brexit!

I think you are being a tad ridiculous good old.

Are those all genuine quotes of good old?

Because if so he is clearly making himself look ridiculous, aided and abetted by you throwing his own silly words back at him.

[Thomas]

Nationalism is bad , really bad!

Ok mate, but what about british nationalism?

No thats good , really really good.

So who should i vote for then?

Dont vote tory , the tories are evil!!!

Ok but in scotland good old , labour and the tories work hand in hand.

Ahh!. ...but they arent evil when they work with us. Only when they arent working with us!

So who should i vote for ? In my constituency the tories are the ones challenging the snp. Should i vote snp?

No! Dont vote SNP! They are evil nationalists , vote tory.!!!

Im confused mate. I thought you said the tories are evil?

The tories are evil  except when they are working with labour. The snp is even more evil  , so vote tory! Rule Brittannia!

So where are you then on the political spectrum mate? Are you a left wing socialist?

Yep! im a left wing centre right socialist marxist globalist. Anything you want me to be! Just vote team GB!!!

Calm down good old. You`ll give yourself a heart attack !

I am calm. Vote team GB!!##

You haven't seen the new me. I've lost 25kg since New Year. Not ballet dancer slim, I'll grant you. But getting there. I'm a mean machine and I'm gonna trash-talk the evil tories  at the weigh-in.

Well done big man. Anyhow i think labour need to step up tae the plate if they want elected!

No-one can teach me anything about stepping up to the plate.

So what about brexit?

Hell on earth! End of the world! stop brexit!!!

So you think there should be a second referendum on brexit.?

and a third or fourth ,till we get the right answer!!

What about a second scottish indy ref?

No jock! Not you , just us !

We got the right answer in that one , so no more referendums ever again for you. Stop Brexit!

Ok but the people voted for brexit fair and square!

It wasnt fair and square ! we lost  ! Stop brexit!

It was fair!

No it wasnt. We lost. Leave lied better than remain , so it wasnt fair. Parliamentary democracy in the uk means we can refuse to implement the referendum if we want to , because its in the rules , and we make up the rules as we go along! Stop Brexit!

I think you are being a tad ridiculous good old.

[DeppityDawg]

All right mister Dawg, I'm not aware  we had an argument , you are obviously looking for one. So seeing as I'm so thick by your standards , and dont understand an argument of my own ,that I didn't have with you. Spell your problem out ,as that's the only way I can judge whether I agree with you or not.

You were, imho, using the term 'nationalist' perjoratively, as if anyone 'nationalist' was some kind of brownshirt. Its a popular left wing bogey man image I know, but it gets tedious. There are those on the far left every bit as unpleasant as the far right, and this narrative of 'good' left versus 'evil' right gets a bit boring. I've seen many "socialists" also link the word to Brexit, as if Brexit is the product of some far right movement intent on installing a 1930s style fascist dictatorship in the UK - a laughable 'conspiracy' theory in a country where we barely even bother prosecuting criminals anymore, let alone 'oppressing' dissent. Dissent of course, being any fruit-bat far left, progressive, climate zealot, gender or race based complaint that the world is against them -as far as Im concerned, they can all f*ck right off, but that doesn't make me a brownshirt or a fecking nazi

Seeing as Thomas, set into something I said that had nothing to do with Scotland , why would I let him drag me into the politics of  a country I couldn't give a toss about, as it happens I couldn't give a toss about his sarcastic references to age intelligence literary skills etc. either but his arguments are so sad and repetitive he needs that sort of crap in there.

After reading that paragraph (and other lines like it), I'm not surprised that Thomas has turned you over - he's a Scottish Nationalist, what do you expect him to do? Send you some virtual flowers ffs?

The fact is , and surely you know what I meant . We could both consider ourselves nationalists ,if you don't then why are you concerned?  Yet. want something different for our country ,that must even for you represent a problem . Surely it has to be better if we want the same things.

I don't want the same things for my country as the majority of pandering liberal/socialists. The reason lies in the comment I highlighted, where you seem to assume what YOU want for our country overrides what I might want. That somehow, the Liberal/left hold some kind of morally superior high ground and that anyone not on board with the latest woke 'message' is routinely villified as a nazi, "nationalist" or some other kind of thick, low life c**t. I detest liberals. Simples.

I won't be worrying about you mate, and if you do have a bone to pick with me make it clear what it is because up to now you haven't. I can't try to put your points down if you haven't actually made them. If you are going to try educating me as Thomas, likes to try to his own ideas don't expect any success

I'm not trying to educate you - its you who have numerous times now told me that I "don't understand" - there are enough points aboce for you to have a field day - bring a fecking barbeque and some cans if you like. "Putting your points down" about seems to sum up your approach so far - as if someone who may appear to hold a different view to you is some kind of vermin to be exterminated. As for Thomas, you keep mentioning him, and yet you keep responding to his posts even though you claim not to care - that in itself tells me your argument, if there even is one, is not standing up to scrutiny. I'd say you've picked the wrong poster to have a weak argument with

[Thomas]

Well I must have told them at least a hundred times don't mess with populism or our democratic aims for the future and don't think you can manipulate the British electorate over democracy, it is what generation after generation were told they were fighting and dying for.

Numerous polls have previously found that English voters are willing to offload the rest of the UK in the name of Brexit, but until now the margin had been fairly close. Now, however, England is running out of patience. By a resounding margin of 55-36, English voters now prioritise getting out of Europe over hanging onto their Celtic cousins.

Unsurprisingly the vast majority of Leavers put Brexit first. But more soberingly, even among Remain voters a substantial 28% would rather just get Brexit over and done with once and for all than worry about hanging onto Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland – and another 16% of Remainers (or 12% of the ones in England alone) don't want to keep the UK together at all.

We did tell them sheep , the majority of voters wanted brexit done even if it meant the end of their precious union...




And despite the much trumpeted remainer policy and demanding another brexit referendum to get the right answer this time while ignoring implementing the last result , the majority of the uk didint agree with them...

....and these polls were taken 8 weeks before the december election with the prophetic words....

But the findings of this poll are nevertheless an astonishing indictment of every one of the UK's 650 MPs. They're trying to force a second vote on the people of the UK that they don't want, whose options alone would be unknown, controversial and divisive, and which only a minority of voters believe would be respected anyway.

[Sheepy]

Well I must have told them at least a hundred times don't mess with populism or our democratic aims for the future and don't think you can manipulate the British electorate over democracy, it is what generation after generation were told they were fighting and dying for.