Margaret Thatcher split off topic

[Thomas]

Surely there is workable agreement there?

it is but you arent listening mate to what im saying. Of course the snp would trade off backing labour in government to get another ref.

The point im making is if labour were daft enough to take that support  , they would deserve the political hammering in england they would get forevermore.

Im not sure for any labour leader its a price worth paying ?

[srb7677]

sadly for you though the majority didnt agree with you over brexit? You lost.

A little mischievous of me I know but I cannot resist pointing out that a large majority of your own countrymen and women - by a margin of 62% to 38% - actually didn't vote for Brexit. It was imposed upon your nation against it's expressed democratic wishes by the votes of the English. So I find it rather curious that you appear to be championing that. Because a large majority didn't agree with Brexit in Scotland.

[DeppityDawg]

You are welcome , there is a lot of truth in how you see things.  I certainly don't think I have a finger on the pulse of the country far from it .I am not carried by that pulse though. As far the various changes in the Labour movement are concerned of course they can not all be applauded. I was a London  dockland babe .Hard left was my up bringing ,even believed in it for a time ,that was until I realised only revolution would move this place noticeably and nobody was buying that . A lot of water under the bridge later and I also realised the only change we would get was going to be slow painstaking and devoid of some of our core beliefs . I still believe that old fashioned as it may be. Because the alternative should not be aTory take over with or without Brexit . I do agree Brexit certainly turned heads.  but was it the right way.? The country really needs it to work .  And that's why all anyone can do is give it a go. I,ll like if it works ,if not what do you think?

I think that people like me (and people like Thomas especially), are the kind of people the Labour party SHOULD have been looking to for support - people who should naturally be Labour voters - but who feel let down, betrayed and abandoned by a party that doesn't give flying feck about us anymore. And its far, far too late now. You've got hundreds of thousands of what should be natural labour voters, who just voted Tory not 10 months ago (many in seats that have NEVER had a Tory MP before), rather than see Labour anywhere near government. That's the real tragedy

[Thomas]

I get that and accept that. But I also know that quite a lot of my former party members on the left up there have thrown in their lot with the SNP, as have many of our former voters. So the SNP might have a broad church appeal but it is certainly seen as a progressive option to many on the left. And many of it's policies in action have been ones the English left would love to see.

ok and as you know or may remember from previously , i am a former labour member and voter  from many years back. So im one of who you talk about , although i havent voted labour in a long long time. I have always supported scot indy though mate.

It has quite a lot to do with Blairites, with all due respect. They are the main enthusiasts of jumping into bed with the Tories which is destroying our vote, whilst the Tories themselves hoover up the unionist vote. The Blairites are most complicit in that.

ok but with all due respect you cant in any way shape or form deny scotland rejected corbynism and labour ? you cant blame it all on the blairites as i said , if you do you are merely imitating them when they blames everything on corbyn.

Apologies for not being clearer, for I fear you are reading too much into my words. I merely was suggesting that the Labour left in Scotland insofar as I can tell, like the rest of us on the left down here, still view the Tories as public enemy number one, unlike the Blairites.

Who are these labour left mate?

With respect , the vast majority of the old labour left went to the snp many many years ago , and what you had left in the scot branch of the party was more or less hardcore brit nats who would vote tory at the drop of a hat to keep scotland in the union.

If you are reading this off forums , let me tell you mate these labour lefties are so thin on the gorund now in scotland as to be non existant.

Didnt you see the damning report from lesly laird who complained not only about funds drying up for scot labour , but they had to ask for english folk to run around chapping doors as the boots on the ground were so scarce?

[Thomas]

Still rattled then? Stupid voters , nasty Scotsmen. Did not say any of that . Rarely mentioned Blair, left that to you.
Keep making it up Thomas .my battery is down to zero, and my dinners ready.

ok mate you trot off for now  , and slink back on later.

[srb7677]

there is far more to it than just attracting the progressive vote. The SNP are of course a very broad church.

I get that and accept that. But I also know that quite a lot of my former party members on the left up there have thrown in their lot with the SNP, as have many of our former voters. So the SNP might have a broad church appeal but it is certainly seen as a progressive option to many on the left. And many of it's policies in action have been ones the English left would love to see.

The tories have overtaken labour in scotland , and not just recently either but  number of years back.

We go back to what i was saying about nationalist/unionist voting , the scottish unionist vote is gettng behind the party seen as best placed to stop the snp. Nothing to do with blairites to be honest.

It has quite a lot to do with Blairites, with all due respect. They are the main enthusiasts of jumping into bed with the Tories which is destroying our vote, whilst the Tories themselves hoover up the unionist vote. The Blairites are most complicit in that.

And in my personal experiences, the left up there and more generally do not seem to think much differently from the left locally and from me,

ok but what are you hinting at?

There are socialists and left wingers in every country on this earth more or less. Try telling a socialist in dublin or a left winger in France they dont think much differently to you in england so therfore must hand over control of their country to london , and see how much you get laughed at.

Apologies for not being clearer, for I fear you are reading too much into my words. I merely was suggesting that the Labour left in Scotland insofar as I can tell, like the rest of us on the left down here, still view the Tories as public enemy number one, unlike the Blairites. We understand you better than the Blairites do. I for one favour another referendum for Scotland, with the result - whatever it may be - being honoured. Many others on the left would go along with that. Most of the Labour left in Scotland might campaign for the Union in it but we accept it is the Scots' right to choose. Surely there is workable agreement there?

[Good old]

What you don't get is that if you think  debates are to be won then by your own idea of my standard of debate you could have walked away pages and pages ago if you really thought  you had won. But you are  more than just a debater are you not  Thomas. And you were not sure.

you certainly are the master debater for sure .

,but your shear arrogance was the draw.

my arrogance .

Have a read back through your posts with their insinuations. Stupid voters voting tory/snp/brexit.

Dont know what s good for them.

SRB mustnt have a go at the blairites in labour.

Nasty scotsman can't be allowed to comment on uk political forum as he is saying bad things about tony blair.

So on and so forth.

Your arrogance lost you the brexit referendum and the subsequent  elections , and more importantly you are too blind and self absorbed to see it.

Still rattled then? Stupid voters , nasty Scotsmen. Did not say any of that . Rarely mentioned Blair, left that to you.
Keep making it up Thomas .my battery is down to zero, and my dinners ready.

[Thomas]

  I certainly don't think I have a finger on the pulse of the country far from it

i absolutely agree with you here.Far from it indeed.

[Good old]

As I suspected you are more interested in an argument ,than actually contributing anything . No need for beer or barbecue. This is brief because most of that lies in your imagination.
Firstly I used the term Nationalist, in the broadest of terms , by saying we are all nationalists, yet can still want different things . That situation can prove a problem for both parties.
Now. If you want to take offence at  that help yourself. You might not be a fascist . Happy for you. I certainly don%u2019t fit the descriptions you refer to of people and things you Consider left wing . And good and evil ,what the f**k are you on about?
I said nothing to Thomas , of Scotland, he however introduced Scotland after he had questioned something else only remotely related. Once more your introducing something not there except in your head.
I think you are the one doing all the assuming . I only say I won%u2019t  be following your ideas in more than a few areas. You can do what you like .
I haven%u2019t once told you , you don%u2019t understand. What are you smoking? Neither do you educate me ,and you won%u2019t.. you keep mentioning Thomas, I respond.Oh shit done it again. My God, vermin! Extermination, your imagination is running riot  . I wont mention the name again, not when I%u2019m talking to his self appointed  Deppity.

Looking for an argument? On a politics forum? Well, who knew. But actually no, not especially. Suspect away, I couldn't really give a shit. You have the option not to reply. I said earlier, 'socialists' who come on (this forum for example, but not limited to) ranting and frothing at the mouth about brexit, paying lip service to democracy, but secretly boiling under the surface that "what they want for the country" has been subverted by the peoples vote (eg democracy) just irritate me.

Once upon a time, people like me had a party called "Labour" that we could naturally vote for - it represented us, the working classes, and it largely concerned itself with issues that affected us - like employment, housing, working conditions, pay for example. Somehow though, university educated, middle class, metropolitan elitist c88ts slowly hijacked the party until its become something unrecognisable, no longer interested in what's happening in Darlington (never mind Dundee), even though it had a Labour MP for 50 years. Its now obsessed with ethnic, climate and gender issues, and a hundred other issues that divide us. Its no longer a party of the working classes

Sorry. You seem to think you have a 'finger on the pulse' of the country, but you just smack of those elitist wankers. You repeat their soundbytes. Brexit pisses you off so much because the 'people' (remember them? The project?) voted in a referendum for something you don't want. And, like so many other elitists, you can't accept it

You are welcome , there is a lot of truth in how you see things.  I certainly don't think I have a finger on the pulse of the country far from it .I am not carried by that pulse though. As far the various changes in the Labour movement are concerned of course they can not all be applauded. I was a London  dockland babe .Hard left was my up bringing ,even believed in it for a time ,that was until I realised only revolution would move this place noticeably and nobody was buying that . A lot of water under the bridge later and I also realised the only change we would get was going to be slow painstaking and devoid of some of our core beliefs . I still believe that old fashioned as it may be. Because the alternative should not be aTory take over with or without Brexit . I do agree Brexit certainly turned heads.  but was it the right way.? The country really needs it to work .  And that's why all anyone can do is give it a go. I,ll like if it works ,if not what do you think?

[Thomas]

What you don't get is that if you think  debates are to be won then by your own idea of my standard of debate you could have walked away pages and pages ago if you really thought  you had won. But you are  more than just a debater are you not  Thomas. And you were not sure.

you certainly are the master debater for sure .

,but your shear arrogance was the draw.

my arrogance .

Have a read back through your posts with their insinuations. Stupid voters voting tory/snp/brexit.

Dont know what s good for them.

SRB mustnt have a go at the blairites in labour.

Nasty scotsman cant be allowed to comment on uk political forum as he is saying bad things about tony blair.

So on and so forth.

Your arrogance lost you the brexit referendum and the subsequent  elections , and more importantly you are too blind and self absorbed to see it.

[Thomas]

And you talk of respect.

i have none for you.

Unlike you I'm not trying to convince the world that I above all others know what England needs

using the quote tags quote me where im trying to do this please?

I have the opinions of a voter that has a right to an opinion.

Same as me.....and ?

Are you now trying to fill in the big white space of the post with irrelevant drivel?

Yes I have a varied view of what I would like to see in my country

So does everyone else , sadly for you though the majority didnt agree with you over brexit? You lost.

.Enough to confuse you.

your deadly mate so you are.

But then you are a one horse pony ,that thinks thinking outside the box is restricted to you.  You however are the well informed political expert .or so you think

well i will tell you what i am. I am someone who listens to what people say unlike you.

[Good old]

The insinuation is you have done absolutely nothing in pages and pages other than let me and anyone looking know how much  you hate Labour .

Of course i have.

For example we discussed your mind numbling brain dead argument about nationalism being bad , excpet when its your nationalsim.

We talked about your hysterical position of the tories being evil when its the uk , but not when its scotland.

...and so on and so forth.

Im here to debate. You are here to throw out angry bleats about labour and wont listen to why the vast majority of people wont vote for them.

There is no insinuation that all Labours problems in England are down to  the SNs

ok so what do you mean then when you said this?

Why is it so important for a Scots Nat to see Labours destruction in Scotland reinacted in England?

Is this the most dumb feckin question on a forum of all time or what? What possible influence do a scottish party who stand only in scotland possibly have on the english voters view of labour?

or are you telling me i can't post a view on labour , and discuss on a "uk " political forum( i know , i wish it werent so but we have to deal with reality at the present) a view of uk labour because you dont like people saying bad things about them.?

Feckin grow up.

Only you say Labour has Problems and no future .The SNs dont.. I don't.. You can't respect that without ridicule. it seems

i have given you a detailed response across this thread , so its a bit more in depth than me saying labour have problems and no future.

You on the other hand dont want to listen to any constructive criticism , and dont want to talk outside of your comfort zone of nationalsim bad , tories evil , what about the poor and nhs , so achieving a respectfull debate is almost impossible with you not to mention your incoherent ramblings.

But you need to respect every bodies intelligence if you think Making up quotes ,makes your hatred of Labour ,any the more warranted.

im simply making a bit of satire out of the brain dead shite you are posting .

So why is it so important to you that Labour is destroyed  in England?

Its not. What gives you the impression it is?

This is a deabting forum where i am debating and have deabted many folk from many countries , and during the course of swapping notes with folk in say northern england , we seem to often come to the same view on the labour parties behaviour?

Are you saying im not allowed to comment?

Am i not allowed to post an opinion on why labour did so badly because of their anti brexit stance?

Tough!

What you don't get is that if you think  debates are to be won then by your own idea of my standard of debate you could have walked away pages and pages ago if you really thought  you had won. But you are  more than just a debater are you not  Thomas. And you were not sure.
Another number of misrepresentations of what I have actually said in your post ,but I'm sick of playing your silly game of look how clever I am. Do you know none of what we have talked about really bothers me ,but your shear arrogance was the draw. I'm a voterThomas, pure and simple ,you would never convince me of anything . Now if that represents a victory go up the pub and enjoy it. 

[DeppityDawg]

As I suspected you are more interested in an argument ,than actually contributing anything . No need for beer or barbecue. This is brief because most of that lies in your imagination.
Firstly I used the term Nationalist, in the broadest of terms , by saying we are all nationalists, yet can still want different things . That situation can prove a problem for both parties.
Now. If you want to take offence at  that help yourself. You might not be a fascist . Happy for you. I certainly don%u2019t fit the descriptions you refer to of people and things you Consider left wing . And good and evil ,what the f**k are you on about?
I said nothing to Thomas , of Scotland, he however introduced Scotland after he had questioned something else only remotely related. Once more your introducing something not there except in your head.
I think you are the one doing all the assuming . I only say I won%u2019t  be following your ideas in more than a few areas. You can do what you like .
I haven%u2019t once told you , you don%u2019t understand. What are you smoking? Neither do you educate me ,and you won%u2019t.. you keep mentioning Thomas, I respond.Oh shit done it again. My God, vermin! Extermination, your imagination is running riot  . I wont mention the name again, not when I%u2019m talking to his self appointed  Deppity.

Looking for an argument? On a politics forum? Well, who knew. But actually no, not especially. Suspect away, I couldn't really give a shit. You have the option not to reply. I said earlier, 'socialists' who come on (this forum for example, but not limited to) ranting and frothing at the mouth about brexit, paying lip service to democracy, but secretly boiling under the surface that "what they want for the country" has been subverted by the peoples vote (eg democracy) just irritate me.

Once upon a time, people like me had a party called "Labour" that we could naturally vote for - it represented us, the working classes, and it largely concerned itself with issues that affected us - like employment, housing, working conditions, pay for example. Somehow though, university educated, middle class, metropolitan elitist c88ts slowly hijacked the party until its become something unrecognisable, no longer interested in what's happening in Darlington (never mind Dundee), even though it had a Labour MP for 50 years. Its now obsessed with ethnic, climate and gender issues, and a hundred other issues that divide us. Its no longer a party of the working classes

Sorry. You seem to think you have a 'finger on the pulse' of the country, but you just smack of those elitist wankers. You repeat their soundbytes. Brexit pisses you off so much because the 'people' (remember them? The project?) voted in a referendum for something you don't want. And, like so many other elitists, you can't accept it

[Good old]

Bit of your make believe you mean . That's all right , you must be  desperate.

but if you actually read through your insane ramblings on this thread and political morals which blow with the wind , you will see why im taking the piss.

listen to yourself , you are all over the place.

And you talk of respect. Unlike you I'm not trying to convince the world that I above all others know what England needs , indeed has to have ,or not have , I have the opinions of a voter that has a right to an opinion. You however are well above that . Yes I have a varied view of what I would like to see in my country .Enough to confuse you. But then you are a one horse pony ,that thinks thinking outside the box is restricted to you.  You however are the well informed political expert .or so you think . And yet outside ridiculing my ideas and delivery . Only really have one never ending line of ridicule Labour .Me, and anything and anybody to do with the party. You lost my respect pages ago my old sunshine.

[Thomas]

The insinuation is you have done absolutely nothing in pages and pages other than let me and anyone looking know how much  you hate Labour .

Of course i have.

For example we discussed your mind numbling brain dead argument about nationalism being bad , excpet when its your nationalsim.

We talked about your hysterical position of the tories being evil when its the uk , but not when its scotland.

...and so on and so forth.

Im here to debate. You are here to throw out angry bleats about labour and wont listen to why the vast majority of people wont vote for them.

There is no insinuation that all Labours problems in England are down to  the SNs

ok so what do you mean then when you said this?

Why is it so important for a Scots Nat to see Labours destruction in Scotland reinacted in England?

Is this the most dumb feckin question on a forum of all time or what? What possible influence do a scottish party who stand only in scotland possibly have on the english voters view of labour?

or are you telling me i cant post a view on labour , and discuss on a "uk " political forum( i know , i wish it werent so but we have to deal with reality at the present) a view of uk labour because you dont like people saying bad things about them.?

Feckin grow up.

Only you say Labour has Problems and no future .The SNs dont.. I don't.. You can't respect that without ridicule. it seems

i have given you a detailed response across this thread , so its a bit more in depth than me saying labour have problems and no future.

You on the other hand dont want to listen to any constructive criticism , and dont want to talk outside of your comfort zone of nationalsim bad , tories evil , what about the poor and nhs , so achieving a respectfull debate is almost impossible with you not to mention your incoherent ramblings.

But you need to respect every bodies intelligence if you think Making up quotes ,makes your hatred of Labour ,any the more warranted.

im simply making a bit of satire out of the brain dead shite you are posting .

So why is it so important to you that Labour is destroyed  in England?

Its not. What gives you the impression it is?

This is a deabting forum where i am debating and have deabted many folk from many countries , and during the course of swapping notes with folk in say northern england , we seem to often come to the same view on the labour parties behaviour?

Are you saying im not allowed to comment?

Am i not allowed to post an opinion on why labour did so badly because of their anti brexit stance?

Tough!