Margaret Thatcher split off topic

[Thomas]

The Blairite wing of the party were Remainers at any cost types, and their track record both inside and outside of the party demonstrates them to have been no principled champions of democracy. Democracy was merely a tool to be used when it suited and subverted when it did not. They were never going to respect the will of any people whom they thought had voted the wrong way.

This isnt going to wash in any future elections , this constant blaming blairites for all the bad things in labour while trying to sell momemtum as the good.

The public by and large rejected you hard left zealots in momentum. We saw in scotland the utter carnages they caused methodically working their way through the scottish branch root and stem , attacking all and sundry who werent part of the corbyn cult.

You then climbed fully on board with starmers remain at any cost policy , and it cost you dearly at the last election. Starmer didnt hold a gun to your heads and make you support remain against the majority of pre 2019 labour constituencies wishes did he?

You did that all by yourselves , sitting in your momemtum bubble echo chambers convinced the stupid gullible public would  give you their votes.

...and mometum labour , corbyns labour , took a feckin hiding because of it.

....because then as now , you dont listen to the public , only preach self righteous bullshit.

long may it continue.

[srb7677]

What I mean is, the official party line was remain, whilst they had a leave leader. Half the PLP were pro Brexit and the other half remain with the vast majority of members, and their core voters were for Brexit.

Whilst many Labour members were Remainers - especially incidentally the New Labour/Blairite fringe which especially adored the EU - the left of the party was split, with some being so-called "Lexiteers", aka left wing Brexiteers. These latter saw the EU as a pro-privatisation, anti-socialist endeavour.

As for our core voters, it is inaccurate to portray them all as Brexiteers. Some of them - especially the older ones - were. But polling suggested that two thirds of our voters had actually voted to Remain. In other words our core vote was hopelessly divided, making Brexit inevitably highly damaging for Labour whichever way it jumped. We were bound to piss off a lot of people under these circumstances. To keep our Brexit supporting voters happy would have involved pissing off another group instead. We were damned on this issue whatever we did.

Some realised this which is part of the reason we tried to avoid making a decision by throwing it back to the people, hoping thereby to keep both wings on board. This failed, because the Brexit-supporting ones saw this as a betrayal of their referendum vote.

I do think that logically and democratically speaking there were good arguments for letting the people have the final say on the end result. But with many emotively seeing any suggestion of this as a betrayal, this didn't really wash. The Brexiteers felt they'd won already and saw any  suggestion of a final vote as purely an attempt to cheat them, which to be honest it was in the minds of quite a few Remainers.

The Blairite wing of the party were Remainers at any cost types, and their track record both inside and outside of the party demonstrates them to have been no principled champions of democracy. Democracy was merely a tool to be used when it suited and subverted when it did not. They were never going to respect the will of any people whom they thought had voted the wrong way.

[Nick]

I think many of us have raked over the coals of the december general election time and again , and clearly while labour had many problems , the biggest problem they faced was their stance on brexit.

What I mean is, the official party line was remain, whilst they had a leave leader. Half the PLP were pro Brexit and the other half remain with the vast majority of members, and their core voters were for Brexit.

[Sheepy]

I cannot remember where I read it, but in politics the clearer you see, the muddier everything around you becomes. I might even have made it up,.

[Thomas]

Remember this pish from labour last september....


Steven Swinford
@Steven_Swinford

Breaking

Bid to make Labour campaign 'energetically' in favour of staying in the European Union - in defiance of Jeremy Corbyn - has failed at a show of hands

Labour will now officially be neutral on Brexit until after a general election

https://twitter.com/steven_swinford/status/1176174908314914816


and then delegates immediately demanded to have another vote immediately to overturn that vote...


@IanDunt

No, that's done. Chair saying it's a no. Oop, then delegate gets up demanding a card vote.

https://twitter.com/iandunt/status/1176175970996412421

showing the battle in the party between corbyn and the blairites over brexit , especially starmer. ........and starmer won , but lost the G.E.

The "smart" politician who was too stupid to realise that the majority of his constituencies wanted brexit , and no matter what he personally wanted , he needed thier  votes to  get into government to stop brexit.

These people arent going to stop after an election defeat regarding brexit , and you need to do what we do , put the boot in against labour every time you go out to vote . Englands problems is the farce of democracy you are presented with under the fptp stitch up , and labour just dont get , no matter how stupid the tories appear to be , while the english public is presented with a choice of dumb tories or dumber labour , they will opt for dumb time and again.

[Thomas]

Labours problem wasn't which way they went on Brexit, it was that not even the party knew what they stood for. They abandoned their core voters and got told about it at the polls.

Dont agree nick.

I think many of us have raked over the coals of the december general election time and again , and clearly while labour had many problems , the biggest problem they faced was their stance on brexit. They tried and failed miserably to treat the voting  brexiting public as complete fools , showing yet again their utter contempt for the lumpen proletariat that i have witnessed all my life.

The party put forth a vision of some sort of muddled  BRINO , which at first glance appeared to be a sit on the fence job , but when you scratched the surface , it was clearly another attempt to remain in the eu with their idiotic member of the CU , just not "the " CU and so forth.

Corbyn and to a lesser degree his sidekick were plainly visibly uncomfortable with starmers pro remain stance  , especially in light of 61% of labour constituencies being pro brexit , but starmer and his blairite ilk brushed aside their concerns and the wishes of the electorate with yet another of their "we know best" stances .

They are happy to abandon thier core vote.

The blairites in this party firmly believe in the policy of ignoring their core vote while trying to appeal to the middle england southern tory marginals. This was after all the policy that won them three elections on the bounce . The problem is though they never learn , and they still havent learned that the political world has changed since the days of blair where the core labour vote had no where else to go.

I mean listen to this sarcastic quip from good old...

I think your probably right,Labour should have just fallen into line with the less than 52% of the total electorate on a single issue.

Look at the absolute dripping contempt in that statement for the electorate.

That is what you are up against.

Arrogant bastards . Labour get the wrong answer in a referendum so refuse toi fall into line with the electorate. Here in scotland , they still talk about the snp taking"their" seats.

Only one thing to do with this party........grind the feckers into the dust.

[Sheepy]

I thought you might have been a bit wider than that ,Borch. You lot love to see rejection as a personal put down . I suppose it reinforces that feeling of us against the world that brexiteers thrive on. Labour don%u2019t need to keep lighting your little fire, by saying or doing anything with Brexit, and if they have learned anything  they won%u2019t. I mean why should they wind up people who live to be wound up on one issue.
Labour keep very quiet on this issue, just wait, work hard on the other gaping holes in the Boris , Cummings , cult.
And we will see if things stay the same for long.

Hmm. 'Good old' eh? What's all that about then? Good old piss up? Good old punch up? Good old ****. Good old whinge about 'brexit'?

I think you'll find that labour "keeping quiet on the issue" contributed to them getting slaghtered at the last election. Probably because a lot of brexiters saw Labour as pro EU or were unlikely to enact the result. Mind you, most of our establishment is that I suppose. Pro EU that is. That we had a democratic referendum doesnt seem to matter a flying feck to many remainers though, does it?

I voted remain too btw.

Maybe I should have used your monitor, you wouldn't have to ask then would you. I think your probably right,Labour should have just fallen into line with the less than 52% of the total electorate on a single issue. It would have stopped the nation getting bored to tears ,with the Westminster infighting and begging Boris, to relieve the pain.
One minute the moan is they opposed Brexit ,problem. Next it's they were to quiet,problem. It's old news. And all that's going to matter is that Brexit will be judged on results.
I opposed Brexit, I didn't have a brain transplant when the result didn't please , so I,ll keep saying I oppose it. In the same way ,because the nation asks for Tory  it will  not stop me slagging them off, it's all part of British democracy, and I don't understand anyone opposing something until they are told not to, that's a very dangerous practice to develop  in a free country.

Labours problem wasn't which way they went on Brexit, it was that not even the party knew what they stood for. They abandoned their core voters and got told about it at the polls.

Dunno, but they sure seem to have their fair share of problems.

[Nick]

I thought you might have been a bit wider than that ,Borch. You lot love to see rejection as a personal put down . I suppose it reinforces that feeling of us against the world that brexiteers thrive on. Labour don%u2019t need to keep lighting your little fire, by saying or doing anything with Brexit, and if they have learned anything  they won%u2019t. I mean why should they wind up people who live to be wound up on one issue.
Labour keep very quiet on this issue, just wait, work hard on the other gaping holes in the Boris , Cummings , cult.
And we will see if things stay the same for long.

Hmm. 'Good old' eh? What's all that about then? Good old piss up? Good old punch up? Good old ****. Good old whinge about 'brexit'?

I think you'll find that labour "keeping quiet on the issue" contributed to them getting slaghtered at the last election. Probably because a lot of brexiters saw Labour as pro EU or were unlikely to enact the result. Mind you, most of our establishment is that I suppose. Pro EU that is. That we had a democratic referendum doesnt seem to matter a flying feck to many remainers though, does it?

I voted remain too btw.

Maybe I should have used your monitor, you wouldn't have to ask then would you. I think your probably right,Labour should have just fallen into line with the less than 52% of the total electorate on a single issue. It would have stopped the nation getting bored to tears ,with the Westminster infighting and begging Boris, to relieve the pain.
One minute the moan is they opposed Brexit ,problem. Next it's they were to quiet,problem. It's old news. And all that's going to matter is that Brexit will be judged on results.
I opposed Brexit, I didn't have a brain transplant when the result didn't please , so I,ll keep saying I oppose it. In the same way ,because the nation asks for Tory  it will  not stop me slagging them off, it's all part of British democracy, and I don't understand anyone opposing something until they are told not to, that's a very dangerous practice to develop  in a free country.

Labours problem wasn't which way they went on Brexit, it was that not even the party knew what they stood for. They abandoned their core voters and got told about it at the polls.

[srb7677]

do you really want a repeat of the tories in 2015 showing billboards with a labour leader in the snp top pocket? Thats all i meant , not too sure how it would go down with the english public for you.

The snp wouldnt care as we dont have to answer to them , you do.

It is true that in 2015 talk of a Scottish tail wagging an English dog did us damage south of the border. This is precisely why so many in my party are unwilling to speak publicly of any willingness to cooperate with the SNP. And we'd likely deny any such intention in advance. But were the circumstances right for it after an election, we'd work with you just the same. At least we would have under Corbyn. What Starmer will do is anyone's guess. I fear he'll be more concerned with keeping the English newsprint media on board and may run scared from any cooperation. But it is too early as yet for me to predict with any confidence exactly what he will do. But the fact that he is cheer led by a bunch of Blairites who hate the progressive SNP far more than they dislike the evil Tories does not bode well.

[Good old]

In short, Scottish Blairite Labour remained unattractive to Scots, whatever Corbyn said or did.

A Scots ,left leaning party. Doing their own thing trumps , Blair, Corbyn, or Starmer.  For them. Even though most of the policy could have been dreamed up by any of the three. They would have had their independence if they had not lost their nerve. I don't  begrudge them it , even though from the position I am actually in I prefer the union.  There will no Tory rule there anytime soon after independence. An imitation of Blair's, pink Tory, maybe 

[Thomas]

Am not at all sure you are right about that. The English themselves are nowhere near as wedded to the union as they once were. Your own evidence earlier for example made clear that they'd throw it under a bus in pursuit of Brexit.

ok fair point , i accept what you say , but do you really want a repeat of the tories in 2015 showing billboards with a labour leader in the snp top pocket? Thats all i meant , not too sure how it would go down with the english public for you.

The snp wouldnt care as we dont have to answer to them , you do.

And any unpopularity could be countered with popular policies to some extent and is unlikely in any case to have proven permanent.

No dont agree. 2019 election proved the opposite , the tories won purely and simply by taking the side of the english public and labour lost , no matter what their policies were because they became unpopular as anti democrats.

You dig a deep enough hole for yourself as starmer did last year , then you have no way of getting out of it no matter what you offer policy wise.

Besides, that the Scots would win independence in a referendum is far from certain.

ok but we are much better placed this time starting at 54% yes? Westminster obviously dont fancy their chances by saying no!

The left had a plan to kill it with kindness, by adopting progressive policies of a kind the Scots like but for the entire UK

Sorry steve i think it naive to believe that. The kindness ship sailed a long time ago for 45% of scotland , and an even bigger number now have had enough.

Some of us believe there may be a body of opinion in Scotland which sees independence as the only way to create a fair and just society,

Some do , many like me just want to live in a normal country warts and all where our neighbours dont decide what we get or how we are governed . This is the norm across the world.

The Blairites seem to be in the ascendant again, and they'll destroy any hopes of winning the Scot's round, especially if they kill off our progressive policies.

Well you have the blairites in charge now for the next five years. Starmer is going nowhere bar a miracle till he contests and election , if he wins , the blairites will crow endlessly , if he loses , you face another battle.

Scotland isnt going to sit about waiting . things are moving big time.

[Thomas]

To be honest these facts are linked. I do not doubt that there are very few Labour left wingers left in Scotland, hence my contention that Scottish Labour is dominated by unreconstructed Blairites. Online I encounter many more former Scottish Labour lefties who are now SNP.

ok i think we are merely arguing labels. I think of them as hardcore unionists , you think if them as blairites.

Either way , they are on the opposite side of the unverse from you and i.

As for rejecting Corbynism, perhaps many Scots were unconvinced by a party many of whose own MPs openly opposed their progressive leader, and whose party locally was dominated by Blairites eager to jump into bed with the Tories

or perhaps most scots have now run out of patience with the union.?

But in policy terms, what you dismiss as "Corbynism" was stuff the SNP had already done or would have liked to do.

i know we discussed this over the years. Corbyn did try toemulate many snp policies , although at times he made a bit of a hash about it for example wanting to nationalise the water industry without already realising scotlands water already is in public hands. ( apart from the bit the blairites privatised!)

The big main policy though you ignore is scottish indy , and i suspect corbyn was on the opposite side from scotland on that fact. He was never ever going to win back any of the 45% from 2014 was he?

[srb7677]

Surely there is workable agreement there?

it is but you arent listening mate to what im saying. Of course the snp would trade off backing labour in government to get another ref.

The point im making is if labour were daft enough to take that support  , they would deserve the political hammering in england they would get forevermore.

Im not sure for any labour leader its a price worth paying ?

Am not at all sure you are right about that. The English themselves are nowhere near as wedded to the union as they once were. Your own evidence earlier for example made clear that they'd throw it under a bus in pursuit of Brexit. And any unpopularity could be countered with popular policies to some extent and is unlikely in any case to have proven permanent. The English electorate is notoriously fickle.  Besides, that the Scots would win independence in a referendum is far from certain. The left had a plan to kill it with kindness, by adopting progressive policies of a kind the Scots like but for the entire UK. Some of us believe there may be a body of opinion in Scotland which sees independence as the only way to create a fair and just society, and have thus given up on the union.  Were I in Scotland I'd have likely reached that conclusion. By delivering a fair and just society for the whole UK we hoped to win some of these round before any referendum. How fanciful you think any of that is or was I will leave you to decide. But it matters not now. The moment is gone. The Blairites seem to be in the ascendant again, and they'll destroy any hopes of winning the Scot's round, especially if they kill off our progressive policies.

[srb7677]

ok but with all due respect you can't in any way shape or form deny scotland rejected corbynism and labour ? you can't blame it all on the blairites as i said , if you do you are merely imitating them when they blames everything on corbyn.

Apologies for not being clearer, for I fear you are reading too much into my words. I merely was suggesting that the Labour left in Scotland insofar as I can tell, like the rest of us on the left down here, still view the Tories as public enemy number one, unlike the Blairites.

Who are these labour left mate?

With respect , the vast majority of the old labour left went to the snp many many years ago , and what you had left in the scot branch of the party was more or less hardcore brit nats who would vote tory at the drop of a hat to keep scotland in the union.

If you are reading this off forums , let me tell you mate these labour lefties are so thin on the gorund now in scotland as to be non existant.

Didnt you see the damning report from lesly laird who complained not only about funds drying up for scot labour , but they had to ask for english folk to run around chapping doors as the boots on the ground were so scarce?

To be honest these facts are linked. I do not doubt that there are very few Labour left wingers left in Scotland, hence my contention that Scottish Labour is dominated by unreconstructed Blairites. Online I encounter many more former Scottish Labour lefties who are now SNP.

As for rejecting Corbynism, perhaps many Scots were unconvinced by a party many of whose own MPs openly opposed their progressive leader, and whose party locally was dominated by Blairites eager to jump into bed with the Tories. We would have needed to gain power first before we could demonstrate good faith to the Scots. And we would have had to do that in the face of an unremittingly Blairite Scottish Labour party. But in policy terms, what you dismiss as "Corbynism" was stuff the SNP had already done or would have liked to do. In policy terms alone Corbyn's offer was not unattractive. But it wasn't enough in the face of Blairite opposition to it.

In short, Scottish Blairite Labour remained unattractive to Scots, whatever Corbyn said or did.

[Thomas]

A little mischievous of me I know but I cannot resist pointing out that a large majority of your own countrymen and women - by a margin of 62% to 38% - actually didn't vote for Brexit. It was imposed upon your nation against it's expressed democratic wishes by the votes of the English. So I find it rather curious that you appear to be championing that. Because a large majority didn't agree with Brexit in Scotland.

Not at all mate , i have explained this many a time.

Brexit shows what we have been saying all these years , scotlands opinion doesnt matter unless it coincides with what england wants.

Brexit proves that.

We voted to remain in the eu , your parliament told us no , england has spoken. The sensible thing to do would have been enact the result for england and wales and leave the scottish and northern irish in the eu as they wished , but another route has been chosen for us against the popualr vote.

There was no way on this earth though i would advocate overturning a referndum. Not only because it goes against my belief in democracy , but it would be madness for me to do so  if there is another scot ref and we vote yes , the same anti democrats would simply overturn our vote too.

Brexit has to happen , its the only way to go. We didnt choose it directly but we are being dragged along because we voted no in 2014 , and every man woman and child in scotland sees this .