One crazy trick to avoid extension

[Borchester]

Strangely no one has managed to come up with the benefits the EU solely bring.

If it were not for the EU the sun would not rise in the morning and the UK would be headed for a nuclear winter by sunset.



Frankly, I wonder if you even bother to read Conor's posts.

[Conchúr]

Strangely no one has managed to come up with the benefits the EU solely bring.

The debate has been had a thousand times. The point is that you have lauded the achievements of Conservative government while the U.K. remains a member of the EU.



If the status quo works as well as it does, then the burden of proof really falls on you to demonstrate why massive radical constitutional and economic change is necessary.  It doesn't matter whether you think things were achieved in spite of the EU, what matters is how you demonstrate that things will materially be better outside of the EU.  Brexiteers have not demonstrated this, in fact they openly avoid being asked to demonstrate it. Sajid Javid won't even have impact assessments performed or released.



So.....if you are advocating radical economic and political change, without a solid conceptualised basis as to what the change will actually bring or even whether it will be successful, then I'm sorry to tell you that you aren't a conservative at all.

[Nick]

Strangely no one has managed to come up with the benefits the EU solely bring.

[Barry]

Of course I don't think the EU is parasitical, but for the purposes of this discussion I saying that if I did find it to be a bad thing, I still wouldn't advocate any old mad process for getting rid of it.  

Parasite: an organism that lives in or on an organism of another species (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the other's expense.



So maybe it is not such a mad idea.

[Conchúr]

You are allowing Nick to frame the debate in his own favour i.e. the EU is a parasite and a tapeworm with no benfits whatsoever.

Indeed, that's exactly what I am doing. Of course I don't think the EU is parasitical, but for the purposes of this discussion I saying that if I did find it to be a bad thing, I still wouldn't advocate any old mad process for getting rid of it.  That is what Brexit is, a process of madness.  This isn't to say that the average Leaver is mad, because wanting to leave the EU is a perfectly legitimate political viewpoint, but the intellectual and political drivers of Brexit have demonstrated that they don't really have a clue what they're actually doing or trying to achieve.



This is why I always compare Brexit to a religion, because the same mental paradox is involved. Religious people tend to apply a very different level of intellectual scrutiny to everyday life than they do in their place of worship — because they are taught that faith must be complete and to apply evidence based thinking to the religion is to not really be a believer.  This is what happens with Brexit, Leavers see a process which is flapping and flailing because there is no real solid basis to the whole thing, but to call that out would mean you don't 'believe in Britain'.

[Stevlin]

You are allowing Nick to frame the debate in his own favour i.e. the EU is a parasite and a tapeworm with no benfits whatsoever.

Nonsense...the EU IS indeed like a tapeworm, as it does appear to provide some benefit, ( wrt tapeworms, they apparently can help to improve the immune system...), but just as with the EU, UK citizens at least, are better served by achieving separation from both of these parasites......

[Nick]

You are allowing Nick to frame the debate in his own favour i.e. the EU is a parasite and a tapeworm with no benfits whatsoever.

Tell me the benefits. Things that could not be achieved without the EU.

[T00ts]

:barf:  :barf:  :barf:

Go easy fellas I'm having breakfast!

[Javert]

Indeed, but I would want it removed carefully and by proper medical procedure. I wouldn't rip open my own gut with a Stanley knife, or drink industrial-strength vinegar, and risk doing myself long-term harm to get rid of it.

You are allowing Nick to frame the debate in his own favour i.e. the EU is a parasite and a tapeworm with no benfits whatsoever.

[papasmurf]

Indeed, but I would want it removed carefully and by proper medical procedure. I wouldn't rip open my own gut with a Stanley knife, or drink industrial-strength vinegar, and risk doing myself long-term harm to get rid of it.

To get rid of a tapeworm requires medication not surgery.

[Borchester]

Indeed, but I would want it removed carefully and by proper medical procedure. I wouldn't rip open my own gut with a Stanley knife, or drink industrial-strength vinegar, and risk doing myself long-term harm to get rid of it.

Although that is the procedure you have been advising us to expect ever since you joined this forum.



The UK is afflicted by a parasite called the EU and many of us want to see it gone. This cure should be relatively painless, although we are ready to accept that its removal will cause a certain  degree of discomfort.



You on the other hand, spend your time advocating that the parasite should be left in place, will do us the world of good and that any attempt to remove it will not only be obscenely painful and life threatening, but demonstrate our lack of gratitude for all the good things the parasite has done for us.

[Nick]

Indeed, but I would want it removed carefully and by proper medical procedure. I wouldn't rip open my own gut with a Stanley knife, or drink industrial-strength vinegar, and risk doing myself long-term harm to get rid of it.

So we put forward several proposals for the extrication of said parasite but the worm lovers of the UK do everything in their power to block all our will.



We have no choice but swing the axe.

[Conchúr]

I haven't read your full post yet but will. As a quick response to your opening gambit I give you this.



If you have a Tapeworm that has no detriment to your health and you achieve great things despite its lodging, but it is still feeding off you, would you not wish to get rid?



This is how I view the EU.

Indeed, but I would want it removed carefully and by proper medical procedure. I wouldn't rip open my own gut with a Stanley knife, or drink industrial-strength vinegar, and risk doing myself long-term harm to get rid of it.

[Nick]

But again, this makes no sense for a Conservative to say.  You are arguing that the status quo (capitalism and conservative government) works ... but that it works in spite of the status quo. What's more, your response to a status quo which you claim to work is to radically alter that status quo. That isn't really conservative either. Don't get me wrong, It's perfectly within the realms of conservative politics to say "well the working status quo doesn't mean that we can't perpetually push to make it work better". But what you are calling for is not a carefully managed, planned and well-conceptualised push, it is a fairly radical push which is the opposite of all those things.



If you think Brexit is ultimately better for the U.K., that's fine, there is absolutely nothing which would definitively preclude a conservative from supporting the concept of Brexit — but a true conservative, to me anyway, would only support implementing the concept where it is based on well thought-out planning and a clear sense of outcome. A true pro-Brexit conservative would look at the current debacle and conclude that, while he/she still believes that Brexit would be a good thing, it has not yet been adequately conceptualised.



To me, the problem is that the idea of 'being a Brexiter' has become effectively an ultimatum — the 'with us or against us' mentality. And, without claiming clairvoyance or trying to attack you, I think it shows in the nature of your opinions.  You are resolutely conservative in your politics but totally unconservative on the matter of Brexit because the patriotic 'religion' of Brexit, much like actual religions, demands the suspension of disbelief. In religion, all the logic and evidence-based thinking we apply to daily life must be suspended in the context of the religion  . . . or else you aren't a true believer.  And so it is with Brexit, where logic and evidence-based thinking is dismissed as unpatriotic 'heresy' and those who advocate it are not true believers / true patriots.



So, in your case, it seems to me that you are indeed conservative in your daily life politics, but you suspend your conservatism at the altar of Brexit.  Trying to be sincere here by the way, not intending to insult.

I haven't read your full post yet but will. As a quick response to your opening gambit I give you this.



If you have a Tapeworm that has no detriment to your health and you achieve great things despite its lodging, but it is still feeding off you, would you not wish to get rid?



This is how I view the EU.

[Javert]

Also the EU is a pretty pro capitalist organisation in some ways. The whole foundations of the EU is based on capitalism with some social justice thrown in.