Three Black Guys go into a bar....

[srb7677]

Thats not the world we live in though, is it? And it isn't going to be. We live in the world of the terminally offended and the professionally tetchy. It may have been unconscious, it may have been unthinking, it may have been intended, it may have been accidental. But the man making the claim seems all too familiar with the language of 'offence' to me, so it may also have been attention seeking. In the end though, what was the net effect? They didn't get a pint and someone will probably end up getting sacked or disciplined. Is that what you want every single time some black guy complains that something was racist? I've been denied entry or chucked out of more bars than you could shake a stick at (and yes, sometimes it was because of 'appearance) but I didnt make a f*cking political speech to the local rag over it

This is a much wider subject than just what some people say it is. The black community need to enter some dialogue over the negative of their communities too. In the end, we need to ask why more black people are stopped by the police, why more black people are in jail, we need dialogue and transparency over WHO are the victims and aggressors in knife, drug and gang crime as well as in racist attacks, we need to understand why single parent families and absentee fathers are more prevalent among black communities? Is it ALL because of racism? Is it ALL white peoples fault? Is it now racist to even ask black people difficult questions too? How long before someone claims it is? That's how bad its getting.

Listen, the other week in Brixton, what amounted to a paramilitary style force (not a single white face among them) marched in a so called protest giving Marxist fist salutes among talk of 'taking their turf back'. You know fine well that had the EDF, NF, Tommy Robinson types attempted anything remotely like this, it would have been decried all over the liberal press, but strangely, when black people make threatening displays, the Huff Puff, The Graniard and the (not)Independent have got absolutely F*CK ALL to say

As for local press reports like this story (virtue signaling anyone?), for something approaching 20 years in this country, never mind not getting served in a fecking pub, thousands of young white girls were systematically raped and abused because of their RACE and skin colour, but you never saw any virtue signaling from the local press, local authorities or even the police, never mind doing anything to try and fecking stop it - there is just as much discrimination, prejudice and hatred among ethnic communities, buts thats a story that NEVER gets told. If you want some cases of the real suffering and misery racism like that causes, then it was right there in front of the Police, the Councils and the Press for years, and NO ONE tried to stop it. Its about time the subject of race, discrimination and prejudice was opened up and talked about openly and honestly in this country - instead of being hijacked by 'victim groups' and those with yet another political agenda

Well that's quite a rant. But the underlying fact of the matter is that in the case under discussion it looks like racism, and if the reasoning of the pub was legitimate and sound this could have been avoided by properly explaining the true situation. That it was not lends suspicion as to motives.

As to your wider points, yes it is not just whites that can be racist, but that does not provide a free pass to those that are. "It's no big deal cos the other lot are just as bad too" is not morally convincing to me. All racism should be condemned for what it is.

As for the rape gangs of predominantly Pakistani origin, any supposed fear of doing anything about it through fear of being called a racist is a pitiful and cowardly excuse. And some of the New Labour political figures involved - eg Margaret Hodge - came from a centrist sell out clique that had abandoned true Labour values about standing up for the struggling millions and invested all that was left of their claims to be true progressives in identity politics opposing racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. Hodge herself is utterly obsessed by such issues, as demonstrated by the fact that she is single-handedly responsible for a third of all anti-semitism complaints to the Labour Party. She was an example of New Labour middle class metropolitan types who refused to see what was in front of their eyes because it was inconvenient to them. I make no excuses for them.

But this does not negate the reality of genuine racism against ethnic minorities which should never be dismissed purely because some of those can be believed to be equally bad. Because that just fuels it on both sides.

[cromwell]

The world I want to live in is one where false claims on either side are dismissed for what they are and that people are judged for what they do not their colour,sexuality,religion or lack thereof but on the human being they are,big ask I know.

Thats not the world we live in though, is it? And it isn't going to be. We live in the world of the terminally offended and the professionally tetchy. It may have been unconscious, it may have been unthinking, it may have been intended, it may have been accidental. But the man making the claim seems all too familiar with the language of 'offence' to me, so it may also have been attention seeking. In the end though, what was the net effect? They didn't get a pint and someone will probably end up getting sacked or disciplined. Is that what you want every single time some black guy complains that something was racist? I've been denied entry or chucked out of more bars than you could shake a stick at (and yes, sometimes it was because of 'appearance) but I didnt make a f*cking political speech to the local rag over it

This is a much wider subject than just what some people say it is. The black community need to enter some dialogue over the negative of their communities too. In the end, we need to ask why more black people are stopped by the police, why more black people are in jail, we need dialogue and transparency over WHO are the victims and aggressors in knife, drug and gang crime as well as in racist attacks, we need to understand why single parent families and absentee fathers are more prevalent among black communities? Is it ALL because of racism? Is it ALL white peoples fault? Is it now racist to even ask black people difficult questions too? How long before someone claims it is? That's how bad its getting.

Listen, the other week in Brixton, what amounted to a paramilitary style force (not a single white face among them) marched in a so called protest giving Marxist fist salutes among talk of 'taking their turf back'. You know fine well that had the EDF, NF, Tommy Robinson types attempted anything remotely like this, it would have been decried all over the liberal press, but strangely, when black people make threatening displays, the Huff Puff, The Graniard and the (not)Independent have got absolutely F*CK ALL to say

As for local press reports like this story (virtue signaling anyone?), for something approaching 20 years in this country, never mind not getting served in a fecking pub, thousands of young white girls were systematically raped and abused because of their RACE and skin colour, but you never saw any virtue signaling from the local press, local authorities or even the police, never mind doing anything to try and fecking stop it - there is just as much discrimination, prejudice and hatred among ethnic communities, buts thats a story that NEVER gets told. If you want some cases of the real suffering and misery racism like that causes, then it was right there in front of the Police, the Councils and the Press for years, and NO ONE tried to stop it. Its about time the subject of race, discrimination and prejudice was opened up and talked about openly and honestly in this country - instead of being hijacked by 'victim groups' and those with yet another political agenda

The EDF? well I once saw one of their meter readers and he looked a bit threatening.

Didn't say all was well in the world of the black community (or white for that matter) but what I was saying is racism is still there,you disagree.....that's fine but of course questions need to be asked some answered too.

Do muslims hate hindus and vice versa? yep surely do and asians hating blacks yeah that too,not asking for that to be ignored but the whole does need looking at.

[DeppityDawg]

The world I want to live in is one where false claims on either side are dismissed for what they are and that people are judged for what they do not their colour,sexuality,religion or lack thereof but on the human being they are,big ask I know.

Thats not the world we live in though, is it? And it isn't going to be. We live in the world of the terminally offended and the professionally tetchy. It may have been unconscious, it may have been unthinking, it may have been intended, it may have been accidental. But the man making the claim seems all too familiar with the language of 'offence' to me, so it may also have been attention seeking. In the end though, what was the net effect? They didn't get a pint and someone will probably end up getting sacked or disciplined. Is that what you want every single time some black guy complains that something was racist? I've been denied entry or chucked out of more bars than you could shake a stick at (and yes, sometimes it was because of 'appearance) but I didnt make a f*cking political speech to the local rag over it

This is a much wider subject than just what some people say it is. The black community need to enter some dialogue over the negative of their communities too. In the end, we need to ask why more black people are stopped by the police, why more black people are in jail, we need dialogue and transparency over WHO are the victims and aggressors in knife, drug and gang crime as well as in racist attacks, we need to understand why single parent families and absentee fathers are more prevalent among black communities? Is it ALL because of racism? Is it ALL white peoples fault? Is it now racist to even ask black people difficult questions too? How long before someone claims it is? That's how bad its getting.

Listen, the other week in Brixton, what amounted to a paramilitary style force (not a single white face among them) marched in a so called protest giving Marxist fist salutes among talk of 'taking their turf back'. You know fine well that had the EDF, NF, Tommy Robinson types attempted anything remotely like this, it would have been decried all over the liberal press, but strangely, when black people make threatening displays, the Huff Puff, The Graniard and the (not)Independent have got absolutely F*CK ALL to say

As for local press reports like this story (virtue signaling anyone?), for something approaching 20 years in this country, never mind not getting served in a fecking pub, thousands of young white girls were systematically raped and abused because of their RACE and skin colour, but you never saw any virtue signaling from the local press, local authorities or even the police, never mind doing anything to try and fecking stop it - there is just as much discrimination, prejudice and hatred among ethnic communities, buts thats a story that NEVER gets told. If you want some cases of the real suffering and misery racism like that causes, then it was right there in front of the Police, the Councils and the Press for years, and NO ONE tried to stop it. Its about time the subject of race, discrimination and prejudice was opened up and talked about openly and honestly in this country - instead of being hijacked by 'victim groups' and those with yet another political agenda

[cromwell]

Well gosh, that is me told. I was thinking of going up the road to Mrs Begum's house and pouring petrol through her letter box and having her dash out into the street in her nightie. And if it rained it would be like something out of one of those wet sari movies ...

But I suppose you are the sort of right on chap who thinks even that is wrong.

Now you're just being silly in an attempt to hide what I suspect to be your true nature.

Borchesters true nature? Well I'm not convinced he's any type of racist.
What I am certain of irreverence is his game,if he can take the piss out of anything he will,religion,race,nationality you name it......his aim is to shock.
I think it's a hobby of his.

[Borchester]

This is the kind of situation ripe for controversy . As the thought processes of various people involved can not be known, the truth is not going to be accessible . Why the three fellers couldn't take two separate tables and have a drink Isn't clear.  If it wasn't allowed because of  routine practice. No singles,  then fine, but if single individuals  could be accommodated in most circumstance.  What was the problem? Unless the proprietor didn't make themselves clear. And then it starts all over again.

The real problem is that I doubt much of the white population care overmuch. These days everything is racist. A while back a black  American low life was killed by a white thug and all the right on folk of pretty near everywhere threw up their hands in delight because they were at a bit of a loose end since Geta Humbug ran out of hysteria and pranced through the streets squealing whatever bollocks was currently in fashion. All goods fun but it is getting harder and harder to take the Julie Kontens of this world seriously.

[srb7677]

Well gosh, that is me told. I was thinking of going up the road to Mrs Begum's house and pouring petrol through her letter box and having her dash out into the street in her nightie. And if it rained it would be like something out of one of those wet sari movies ...

But I suppose you are the sort of right on chap who thinks even that is wrong.

Now you're just being silly in an attempt to hide what I suspect to be your true nature.

[Good old]

This is the kind of situation ripe for controversy . As the thought processes of various people involved can not be known, the truth is not going to be accessible . Why the three fellers couldn't take two separate tables and have a drink Isn't clear.  If it wasn't allowed because of  routine practice. No singles,  then fine, but if single individuals  could be accommodated in most circumstance.  What was the problem? Unless the proprietor didn't make themselves clear. And then it starts all over again.

[Borchester]

And like all apologists for apparent racism your attempt to attack the alleged victim is duly noted. And is the kind of behaviour that racists themselves often indulge in rather than have the courage to be direct.

Well gosh, that is me told. I was thinking of going up the road to Mrs Begum's house and pouring petrol through her letter box and having her dash out into the street in her nightie. And if it rained it would be like something out of one of those wet sari movies ...

But I suppose you are the sort of right on chap who thinks even that is wrong.

[srb7677]

I doubt that this has much to do with racism as such. You have to be a pretty sad bastard if you have never been thrown out of a pub and an even sadder one if you flounce out and get the local rag to write up your queanie tantrums.

That said, Mr Konten is teaching in a not particularly attractive school with an unimpressive academic record. But no one is going to ask him what he is doing to earn his beer and bacon, because if anyone does our he will simply squeal racism. And as everyone who has ever taught knows, there is no one quite as ball less as a head teacher.

It has every appearance of being racism because three black guys were told there was no room after which two white guys were let in. No one explained to the black guys that there was room but only for two. And the supposed fact that only two people could sit at this table for four for social distancing reasons could easily have been invented as an excuse afterwards. Because why not be honest with the black guys from the start?

And many people might have been thrown out of pubs for being too drunk or for behaving badly or whatever, but being barred admittance in the first place for being black is very different. And like all apologists for apparent racism your attempt to attack the alleged victim is duly noted. And is the kind of behaviour that racists themselves often indulge in rather than have the courage to be direct.

[Borchester]

I doubt that this has much to do with racism as such. You have to be a pretty sad bastard if you have never been thrown out of a pub and an even sadder one if you flounce out and get the local rag to write up your queanie tantrums.

That said, Mr Konten is teaching in a not particularly attractive school with an unimpressive academic record. But no one is going to ask him what he is doing to earn his beer and bacon, because if anyone does our he will simply squeal racism. And as everyone who has ever taught knows, there is no one quite as ball less as a head teacher.   

[srb7677]

There is sadly substantial evidence of racism and racist attitudes and incidents in the UK. Cromwell is not making it up. He has described actual incidents he has witnessed. I could do the same. Like the time three Asians boarded a bus and one girl said loudly enough for them and the whole bus to hear "Those fucking Pakis better not sit next to me." That's just one of many.

Here is some actual evidence as to how widespread it is, and how widespread perceptions of it are....

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/16/racism-in-the-uk-still-rife-say-majority-of-britons

[srb7677]

No, what should have been said a socially distanced table is available but for only two of you, By not being said it has created the usual uproar of its all racism.

Exactly! The three black guys were not told that the only table available was a table for two. They were simply told there was no room, a factually incorrect statement, because there was room for two. So when two white guys get let in it looks racist and is bound to look that way. If the pub has a genuine case that the four seater table could only accommodate two for social distancing reasons - assuming this is not an excuse made up after the fact - then explaining that properly could have avoided any appearance of racism. It would also have negated in advance any suspicion that it was an invented excuse produced afterwards.

It seems to me that johnofgwent is pursuing his hobby horse of dismissing any possibility of racism whenever and wherever he can, rather than seeing it as it is.

[cromwell]

OK Thomas so we'll go through it

Stop playing word games and arguing semantics cromwell. You made a claim

Yes and I told you the basis for that claim,there's no word games you claimed I used the term majority.....I didn't its that simple

Stop playing word games and arguing semantics cromwell. You made a claim

Already explained there's no reliable source which can back up either side

Deppity dawg also said to you about your empty claim..
So it wasnt just me that thought it a strange thing to say when you can't back it up. So stop with your silly last word diversions cromwell. Not that some of us ( sampan the other week) havent come now to expect this from you during debate. its all you have.

Really? some people refer to others posts from time to time,but increasingly you are like some gig that relies on supporting acts rather than its own performance,state your case without reliance on others all the time.

Well thats a lie with a grain of truth isnt it?

No it's the whole truth and we both know that

In the year after the brexit ref , i posted links to newspapers that said racist incidents were on the increase in england (uk) after the brexit referendum , which on the face of it were true.

On the face of it? not how you portrayed it at the time it was one of your main points of how the English were racist

The figure was still extremely marginal , a tiny tiny minority ,( as opposed to your latest whinge about many racist claims being true) and once i had looked into it further i apologised for getting it wrong .

Again not how you portrayed it and again we both know you didn't apologise for using it at all

You on the other hand were as ever distraught over these newspaper claims i had linked to , and at the time were defending the fact england/uk wasnt racist.

No I wasn't,I just pointed to similar incidents in Scotland and didn't claim there was no racism

I at least have the decency to apologise when i make a mistake , unlike you cromwell , and your word games , diversions , etc etc all to save face.

But you didn't apologise,and again I have to remind you there's nowt wrong with my memory,still only a few short posts ago I misinterpreted a post by Barry and apologised which btw you said was not necessary,I have never had a problem apologising when at fault there are people who believe that like the pope they are infallible....he isn't they aren't none of us are,as far as word games and diversions perhaps you need to look nearer home

Another one that blows with the feckin wind.

Well you need to look nearer to home again

Any sad victimhood story , and you will be there taking a knee , wether its true or not.

I've already stated I'll take the knee to no one,but if I have a belief or opinion I'll air it so I have no need of yours or anyone's approval,there are a few people on here who I value for one reason or another though I don't expect them to agree with me or me them all the time.

As far as running away at some point I'll decide this thread or whatever is not worth pursuing,if you wish to interpret that as running away crack on with it because it's all in your mind.

[Thomas]

Making things up Thomas,please quote where I said majority

Stop playing word games and arguing semantics cromwell. You made a claim

So no all claims of racism aren't true but clearly IMO many are.

i asked you to put a figure on it , what percentage , and you did your ususal and ran away .

Deppity dawg also said to you about your empty claim..

I don't know how you'd ever know that tbh?

So it wasnt just me that thought it a strange thing to say when you can't back it up. So stop with your silly last word diversions cromwell. Not that some of us ( sampan the other week) havent come now to expect this from you during debate. its all you have.

Also despite being a daft old sod but my memory is intact but on another forum in a galaxy far far away Thomas told me because of the desire to be rid of the EU the English were racist and posted links to prove it,I posted links showing the same in Scotland which were dismissed as a few years old,turns out the English aren't racist at all now.

Well thats a lie with a grain of truth isnt it?

In the year after the brexit ref , i posted links to newspapers that said racist incidents were on the increase in england (uk) after the brexit referendum , which on the face of it were true.

The figure was still extremely marginal , a tiny tiny minority ,( as opposed to your latest whinge about many racist claims being true) and once i had looked into it further i apologised for getting it wrong .

You on the other hand were as ever distraught over these newspaper claims i had linked to , and at the time were defending the fact england/uk wasnt racist.

Now here you are making an empty claim that many racist claims are indeed true , but can't back it up further.

I at least have the decency to apologise when i make a mistake , unlike you cromwell , and your word games , diversions , etc etc all to save face.

Another one that blows with the feckin wind.

Any sad victimhood story , and you will be there taking a knee , wether its true or not.

so to get back to what i asked you ,

So no all claims of racism aren't true but clearly IMO many are.

what percentage of racist claims are true then cromwell?

any idea?

let me know when you have a figure to back up your empty claim , and until then , we can safely dismiss what you say as nonsense and wishfull thinking.

[cromwell]

So no all claims of racism aren't true but clearly IMO many are.

I don't know how you'd ever know that tbh? I think some people need to establish clearly what 'racism' (or homophobia or a host of other ists and isms to be fair) actually is before bandying the accusation around.

For example, how many times has Dianne Abbott played the race card, and that's in public life? Was she viciously assaulted or passed over for a top job because of her skin colour? ....erm, no...she was roundly criticized for making horrendous mathematical and policy gaffs (among other things) in press/radio interviews, but of course this plays out in her and her supporters heads as "its because I am black". Is it f**k. Its because shes a fecking idiot. Do you want to live in a world where people can't be justifiably held to account without using some 'prejudice/racist' back charge?

Its like a certain poster on here. Its not because he is 'black' that I detest the ****. Its because he's an arrogant, condescending middle class snob with an ego the size of the Isle of Wight

Well I already said I don't know the figures as neither can the opposite be proved correct but I did say I was expressing an opinion.

Also already said in the past that Aboott is an idiot and was pulled for that and not being black and I don't believe differently now.

The world I want to live in is one where false claims on either side are dismissed for what they are and that people are judged for what they do not their colour,sexuality,religion or lack thereof but on the human being they are,big ask I know.

Also despite being a daft old sod but my memory is intact but on another forum in a galaxy far far away Thomas told me because of the desire to be rid of the EU the English were racist and posted links to prove it,I posted links showing the same in Scotland which were dismissed as a few years old,turns out the English aren't racist at all now.