Three Black Guys go into a bar....

[Good old]

That incident has given me a belief that racism is not as prevalent as some would have us believe .

I believe racism is worse now than in the 1960's.  (Racism isn't all violence by a long way.)

I don't know if it is worse , that's hard to say . It was very up front back then, extreme, I lived amongst some really extreme racism and at a fairly young age didn't question it to much.
It still exists mostly exercised with some care, as against the old days when no one gave a toss. There are a few extremes , but mostly it's subtle ,. And it does exist in all of the cultures that make up our multi cultured  society.

[papasmurf]

That incident has given me a belief that racism is not as prevalent as some would have us believe .

I believe racism is worse now than in the 1960's.  (Racism isn't all violence by a long way.)

[Streetwalker]

The example I gave is just one of many I could have given. There was no police involvement in any of them. Which illustrates the likelihood that the 79,000 recorded incidents are just the tip of the iceberg. Most no doubt never get reported. Racism is not only ugly, it is real, and sadly too widespread for us to be dismissive about it.

And how many of the 79000 were false ? I can give you one . My son then 12 had a punch up with a black kid over a girl . That he beat the crap out of him was enough for Croydon magistrates court to refer it to the Crown court in the Strand as a Racially motivated attack . Thankfully the other boy didn't turn up and that was that .

That incident has given me a belief that racism is not as prevalent as some would have us believe .

[papasmurf]

.

This forum is better off without his ilk.

That it is.

[srb7677]

There was a guy on here a while back called wiggles , now banned , who spent his entire day posting anecdotal evidence to back up his racist claims. An alf garnett type character , whose claims amounted to something he had heard down the local pub or golf club that bob had said .

Oh him. I am familiar with him on another forum which is much more tolerant of racist crap and obnoxious bigotry of a kind he is prone to. The measure of the man lies in his statement there - which was deleted with a warning - that transgender people should be euthenised, ie murdered.

This forum is better off without his ilk.

[papasmurf]

Anti-semitism in Labour has been grossly exaggerated in order to be weaponised, and often involves the wilful conflation of legitimate criticism of Israel with anti-semitism when it is not. It also often conflates anti-Zionism with anti-semitism, when in fact zionism is an ideology, not a race.

The gutter press must be busting a gut, because of a story they would like to publish, but if they did, it would prove that they did lie and carry out a lot of very dirty tricks against Labour and Corbyn.
It will be interesting to see which one, if any, of the gutter press breaks ranks.

[srb7677]

The example I gave is just one of many I could have given.

im not calling you a liar , far from it. Im pointing out its a tiny amount of incidents of which to try and back up cromwells claim that "many " claims of racism are true. If its true , where is the substantial evidence?

There was no police involvement in any of them. Which illustrates the likelihood that the 79,000 recorded incidents are just the tip of the iceberg. Most no doubt never get reported. Racism is not only ugly, it is real, and sadly too widespread for us to be dismissive about it.

Come now steve. Anecdotal evidence on such a tiny scale is evidence of practically nothing yookay wide. This doesnt in any way support cromwells fatuous remark.

There was a guy on here a while back called wiggles , now banned , who spent his entire day posting anecdotal evidence to back up his racist claims. An alf garnett type character , whose claims amounted to something he had heard down the local pub or golf club that bob had said .

...but taking your logic further then , are we to infer that the anti semitic incidents in the labour party for example the likes of naz shah , are just the tip of the anti semitic iceberg while we are bandying claims of prejudice about?

Naz Shah: My words were anti-Semitic

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-36802075

A guide to Labour Party anti-Semitism claims

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45030552

I too can supply yet more anecdotal evidence of anti semitism in the labour party from way back , in glasgow. PLO chanting and anti semitic banners about jews? The link between old labour in scotland , glasgow celtic , links between the PLO and IRA are well known , as is the barely concealed contempt for amny in labour for israel and the jewish people , oft dismissed as "merely " anti zionism when it borders on  , and often degenerates into anti semitism.

I would say labours own prejudice  goes back too far and is too long too to be dismissive about , and it just goes to show dont cast stones unless you are without any sin yersell.

Anti-semitism in Labour has been grossly exaggerated in order to be weaponised, and often involves the wilful conflation of legitimate criticism of Israel with anti-semitism when it is not. It also often conflates anti-Zionism with anti-semitism, when in fact zionism is an ideology, not a race.

Comparing this with the prevalence of racism more generally in society is comparing apples and pears. If you think the 79,000 reported incidents of racism is the sum total you are surely deluding yourself because it is logically obvious that many incidents - especially if they do not involve violence - would not even be reported. None of the incidents I have seen ever appear to have been and they serve as representative samples to me. All of them were examples of racism going unreported, suggestive of the more widespread likelihood of this.

There is much evidence of the widespread nature of racism....

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/dec/02/revealed-the-stark-evidence-of-everyday-racial-bias-in-britain

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_United_Kingdom

https://www.varsity.co.uk/opinion/19419

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1123242/opinion-on-racism-in-uk-society/

https://www.iser.essex.ac.uk/files/projects/health-and-harassment/Health%20and%20Harassment%20Briefing%20Note%20Oct2016.pdf

[Thomas]

The example I gave is just one of many I could have given.

im not calling you a liar , far from it. Im pointing out its a tiny amount of incidents of which to try and back up cromwells claim that "many " claims of racism are true. If its true , where is the substantial evidence?

There was no police involvement in any of them. Which illustrates the likelihood that the 79,000 recorded incidents are just the tip of the iceberg. Most no doubt never get reported. Racism is not only ugly, it is real, and sadly too widespread for us to be dismissive about it.

Come now steve. Anecdotal evidence on such a tiny scale is evidence of practically nothing yookay wide. This doesnt in any way support cromwells fatuous remark.

There was a guy on here a while back called wiggles , now banned , who spent his entire day posting anecdotal evidence to back up his racist claims. An alf garnett type character , whose claims amounted to something he had heard down the local pub or golf club that bob had said .

...but taking your logic further then , are we to infer that the anti semitic incidents in the labour party for example the likes of naz shah , are just the tip of the anti semitic iceberg while we are bandying claims of prejudice about?

Naz Shah: My words were anti-Semitic

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-36802075

A guide to Labour Party anti-Semitism claims

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45030552

I too can supply yet more anecdotal evidence of anti semitism in the labour party from way back , in glasgow. PLO chanting and anti semitic banners about jews? The link between old labour in scotland , glasgow celtic , links between the PLO and IRA are well known , as is the barely concealed contempt for amny in labour for israel and the jewish people , oft dismissed as "merely " anti zionism when it borders on  , and often degenerates into anti semitism.

I would say labours own prejudice  goes back too far and is too long too to be dismissive about , and it just goes to show dont cast stones unless you are without any sin yersell.

[DeppityDawg]

Why would you attribute such pejorative bollocks to me? Is it because your mind is so warped and distorted by the fact that I am a lefty that you feel impelled on that basis to project stereotypical bollocks of your own imagination onto me?

I will do a deal with you. You stop assuming stereotypical bollocks about me merely because it conforms to your own preconceived prejudices, and I'll refrain from attributing baseless shit to you which I cannot back up.

Let's deal in facts, not false assumptions about each other

I attributed nothing to you, I wrote  "unless by which you mean", which was an invitation to explain what you meant by "genuine racism"? What the feck was I talking about then? Imaginary racism? False racism? The points I put to you are all valid and apply to "genuine racism" FFS. You tell me to deal in facts after making a comment which suggests I wasn't?

I always deal in facts where I can. Engage with the argument or don't, either way I'm not bothered.

[srb7677]

I'm not negating the reality of "genuine racism", unless by that phrase you mean that racism is only genuine if its committed by white people, which is bollox.

Why would you attribute such pejorative bollocks to me? Is it because your mind is so warped and distorted by the fact that I am a lefty that you feel impelled on that basis to project stereotypical bollocks of your own imagination onto me?

I will do a deal with you. You stop assuming stereotypical bollocks about me merely because it conforms to your own preconceived prejudices, and I'll refrain from attributing baseless shit to you which I cannot back up.

Let's deal in facts, not false assumptions about each other.

[srb7677]

Seeing as the three men returned and saw the two men sitting at a large table, this table would have been in view when the three men first entered. I know I would glance round the pub immediately on entry to see if any tables were free. Why did they not question the availability of this table then?

Perhaps they didn't actually see it, or if they did assumed the occupants were in the toilet or something. We can all play the convenient assumption game.

But the facts are that the three blacks were told there was no room when a table was available. The pub later claimed that the table could only safely seat two, yet this was not explained to the blacks.

Those are facts, not mere convenient conjecture as you have indulged in.

[srb7677]

Between you and cromwell , you have both hinted at substantial evidence of racsim in the uk , or many claims being true , and come out with three if im not mistaken anecdotal incident between you in a multi national state of 67 odd million people.

Three incidents. Thats not substantial , nor is it many.

The example I gave is just one of many I could have given. There was no police involvement in any of them. Which illustrates the likelihood that the 79,000 recorded incidents are just the tip of the iceberg. Most no doubt never get reported. Racism is not only ugly, it is real, and sadly too widespread for us to be dismissive about it.

[Thomas]

There is sadly substantial evidence of racism and racist attitudes and incidents in the UK. Cromwell is not making it up. He has described actual incidents he has witnessed. I could do the same. Like the time three Asians boarded a bus and one girl said loudly enough for them and the whole bus to hear "Those f**king Pakis better not sit next to me." That's just one of many.

Here is some actual evidence as to how widespread it is, and how widespread perceptions of it are....

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/16/racism-in-the-uk-still-rife-say-majority-of-britons

Thanks for your post steve , but i completely disagree with you. This story isnt a racist incident end of.

Between you and cromwell , you have both hinted at substantial evidence of racsim in the uk , or many claims being true , and come out with three if im not mistaken anecdotal incident between you in a multi national state of 67 odd million people.

Three incidents. Thats not substantial , nor is it many.

Now at least you have tried to supply some evidence to back up your claim , and to that i would respond while you article is quite a mixed bag, we are conflating two things here...........the perception of the uk being rife with racism in your polls compared to what actually is the reality.

Could the perception of the uk being rife with racism be more down to the hysterical media pumping out story after story of non events like the o/p?

Now im not denying racism exists far from it , but there were something like 79 000 recorded racial incidents , and a race hate crime isnt solely the preserve of the black community , but can be any race nationality including the different "white " nations of the uk or irish travellers.

So there were 79 000 incidents recorded in your country out of a popualtion of (eng and wales) just shy of 60 million people.  One hate crome is too many , but i would say that isnt a substantial amount.

in these you gov polls , the majority in the uk dont think ethnic minorities face any greater discrimination in getting finance , getting into uni , going to a shop , etc etc  , so the polls seemto be all over the place.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/the-extent-brits-feel-ethnic-minorities-are-discriminated-against-in-getting-into-university


Heres my bit of anecdotal evidence which is worth no more or less than yours and cromwell. I grew up in govan in glasgow among the asian community , i havent once witnessed in real life a single racist incident.

I would have thought steve you on the british left would have learned your lesson by now , but seemingly not.

You have been screaming racist at people wether deserved or not , for the last decade if not longer , and how has that worked out for you? You have used it for a political tool  all my life.

As far back as the eighties , labour were screaming anti english racist to any scotsman who dared question the union.

You have screamed racist at the tories all my life too , and portrayed them as the party of the upper class white man. How has that worked out for you?

The SNP turned it around and threw it back in your face in scotland , and the tories used labours shame........the anti semitic prejudice apparently rife in your party against you all through the corbyn leadership.

So i would be very carefull throwing the slur "racist " around if i were you. Its become a completely overused meaningless term , and it seems to me you are starting to see a backlash from the predominantly white community across the yookay as they become sick to death of saying no to a black man and hearing cries of racism shoved down their throats.

Again , labour and the left seem to be on the losing side of this argument.

Final comment i will make , in this eu survey taken while the uk was still a ful member , the uk wasnt much different to many eu nations in terms of small incidents of racism , and in many cases  the yookay was much better than some of the countries were racism was recorded .

The survey, Being Black in the EU, found 21% of people of African descent in the UK reported racial harassment in the last five years, the second lowest in the dataset.

Meanwhile, 20% of people in Malta reported the same, the lowest in the set, compared to 63% in Finland, the highest amount.

https://fra.europa.eu/sites/default/files/fra_uploads/fra-2019-being-black-in-the-eu-summary_en.pdf

[Thomas]

I have a lot of sympathy for the staff at the Pub. Social distancing rules has put staff under a lot more pressure as they now not only have to serve, but also manage social distancing etc with the patrons. On top of this the Same Social distancing means less staff in both the kitchens and front of house.
The staff are therefore being run off their feet.
Yes I can fully understand that staff would simply say "Sorry we are full" rather than say something more detailed that invited a longer conversation/debate, due to the fact they were very busy.

The only thing that matters is that in the same circumstances, a group of three white guys would have turned away and the two black guys accommodated.
The pub apparently is saying yes and it is impossible to prove otherwise.

When it comes to sit down food, most of the pubs and restaurants that I know, are by reservation only with no walk ins allowed.

pretty much nailed on sampan.

Most businesses are more interested in the colour of your money than the colour of your skin. As deppity dawg , streetwalker borkie and others including yourself have said or hinted , its a feckin non story.

Your last line about booking in advance is pretty much what i am finding for all pubs that do food.

[papasmurf]

When it comes to sit down food, most of the pubs and restaurants that I know, are by reservation only with no walk ins allowed.

Locally even takeaway fish and chip is pre book, no walk ins.