Met caught out targetting Black drivers..?

[Sheepy]

DD has clearly lurched well to the right since any days when he might have supported Labour whilst our resident angry Scot has been a supporter of independence for Scotland from the very beginning by his own admission.

bollocks.

Let me remind you of the words of the late great jimmy reid when he faced similar accusations

I never left labour. The labour party left me.

I would say deppity is centrist and moderate , and that you think him right wing because you are so feckin hard left its unreal.

Historically, a lot of this goes back to the miners strike, when the LGBT community saw opportunity of becoming part of mainstream politics, it gave Labour a new cause and they abandoned their base for a wider vision, which as it happens turned out to be inward thinking and shrunk their base by millions.

[srb7677]

When can you win? Whos  support would you need?  I ask because in a number of posts you show a considerable disdain for what you broadly describe as Blairites.  Which encourages the  notion that the   left can Indeed piss off its potential
supporters .  If Labour are to succeed , they have to embrace anyone who isn't dyed in the wool Tory. Label them if you wish but don't denigrate them as not left enough. Realise that your true enemies will encourage division in your ranks at every opportunity , play their  tune and you will never win. A huge percentage of Labours potential vote could be described  as Blairite . Forget that and the Tories have you right where they need you to be.

We need to appeal to the millions who have given up on politics because we offered nothing better. And Blair lost 5 million votes and succeeded electorally only because the Tories were still hated and doing even worse whilst FPTP froze anyone else out. We need to broaden our appeal certainly, but not by pursuing Tory policies or watering down our offering to the struggling millions. And Blair is regarded in some disdain by both right and left. To state that most of the public are Blairites is rather laughable actually. If we lurch too far to the right we will lose many more votes than we gain. Corbyn in 2017 won more votes than almost any other Labour leader. We need to hold on to those people or win them back, as well as gain more. We won't do that by lurching away from all those pressing concerns our 2017 manifesto so effectively addressed. Had it not been for the issue of Brexit and the constant disunity and sabotage from Blairite bitterites, we'd have won in 2017.

[Thomas]

DD has clearly lurched well to the right since any days when he might have supported Labour whilst our resident angry Scot has been a supporter of independence for Scotland from the very beginning by his own admission.

bollocks.

Let me remind you of the words of the late great jimmy reid when he faced similar accusations

I never left labour. The labour party left me.

I would say deppity is centrist and moderate , and that you think him right wing because you are so feckin hard left its unreal.

[Thomas]

And in Thomas's case, that he won't even be able to afford a can of Irn Bru without them running Scotlandshire

Under the labour party , they took glasgow from the second city of the empire to a third world city with knife deaths comparable with south africa , and life expectancy the worst in the developed world.

Its only now over the last 10 years dawned on the people of scotland how bad the labour party , of all ilks , actually were , and how better scotland is without them.

I still remember the feeble fifty from my childhood long before the days of blair.

Eveywhere that party gets into power , they drag down into the gutter and leave the people without any hope.

Glasgow has never had it so good since we kicked them out , never mind across scotland.

As for the nhs , you only need to look at the state those corbyn hard left muppets have the welsh nhs in to see you couldnt trust them in charge of a feckin piggy bank never mind governance.

[srb7677]

I am not going to defend an antisemite.

Dont then.

You certainly have spent plenty of time denying their existence in the labour party across a number of threads .

Lying again. I have not defended anti-semites. Nor have I denied their existence in the party. What I have stated is that they are relatively few in number and problem has been greatly exaggerated in scope for dubious political motivations. Get your facts right.

[Sheepy]

Something of a side issue but I can't help but notice that much of this debate has been between srb7677 (whose soul was clearly forged in the fires of socialist purity) on the one hand and Tommy and DD (ex Labour voters) on the other.

The great thing about the left is that it can always make time to piss off  its potential supporters 

i will never ever support labour ever agan borkie , but i take your point .

They spent a century harping on about scottish home rule , stitched up the 1979 referendum where a yes vote became a no vote under the sneaky bastard robin cooks stitch up , and had to be dragged kicking and screaming to implement devolution by the council of europe , which blair and the high heid yins in labour called a damm nuisance, at the time.

I have watched the hard left hamas supporting IRA loving scum like george galloway all my life  , telling us freedom for everyone everywhere except you daft jocks.

Labour  are finished in scotland. Most folk wouldnt give them the steam off their piss.

Clueless inept party selling fairy stories to the gullible.

Hard left corbyn supporting types like the current labour branch manage richard leaonard spent years stitiching up glasgow female council workers over equal pay , then when they got booted out of glasgow city council after 80 years of rule( a large part of which was nothing to do with the blairite bogeyman) they had bankrupted the council  , council tax receipts barely covered labour debt interest , and then started screaming the snp had to implement equal pay for women which labour had spent years and millions of pound s fighting against.

Duplicitous barstewards and utter scum.

Blairite and corbynite , two cheeks of the same tired empty left wing arse that has completely run out of anything relevant to say .

See I kid you not, best do a Starmer and pretend you haven't heard any of it.

[Thomas]

Something of a side issue but I can't help but notice that much of this debate has been between srb7677 (whose soul was clearly forged in the fires of socialist purity) on the one hand and Tommy and DD (ex Labour voters) on the other.

The great thing about the left is that it can always make time to piss off  its potential supporters 

i will never ever support labour ever agan borkie , but i take your point .

They spent a century harping on about scottish home rule , stitched up the 1979 referendum where a yes vote became a no vote under the sneaky bastard robin cooks stitch up , and had to be dragged kicking and screaming to implement devolution by the council of europe , which blair and the high heid yins in labour called a damm nuisance, at the time.

I have watched the hard left hamas supporting IRA loving scum like george galloway all my life  , telling us freedom for everyone everywhere except you daft jocks.

Labour  are finished in scotland. Most folk wouldnt give them the steam off their piss.

Clueless inept party selling fairy stories to the gullible.

Hard left corbyn supporting types like the current labour branch manage richard leaonard spent years stitiching up glasgow female council workers over equal pay , then when they got booted out of glasgow city council after 80 years of rule( a large part of which was nothing to do with the blairite bogeyman) they had bankrupted the council  , council tax receipts barely covered labour debt interest , and then started screaming the snp had to implement equal pay for women which labour had spent years and millions of pound s fighting against.

Duplicitous barstewards and utter scum.

Blairite and corbynite , two cheeks of the same tired empty left wing arse that has completely run out of anything relevant to say .

[srb7677]

She was head of scottish labour whatever her faults were. One minute you talk abour reason moderacy and reconciliation , the next  , you are screaming hatred at anyone who refuses to confrom to your hard left momemtum views.

In this case kezia dugdale.

You are no moderate , as post after post shows.

I am not hard left. There are very few genuinely hard left Marxist Leninist types in Labour. You clearly do not understand what the hard left is. Either that or you are wedded to pejorative knee jerk terminology of a Daily Fail kind. Nor am I momentum as I have already explained. Have you adopted the tactic of shoving your fingers in your ears too?

My problem also was not so much the Blairites for what they are but for how they behaved. They constantly did the work of the Tories for them because they didn't like the democratically elected leadership. Dugdale was no exception to that. As such she is an enemy of much that I believe in.

But your need to attack "scum" like me is so great that you are prepared in this thread to make common cause with the Blairites to attack me.

I think you are rather confused, and displaying here a tendency to insist upon believing about me things you have already been told are wrong. That is a closing of mind and blind insistence upon believing crap because you find it convenient crap rather than dealing in truth.

[Sheepy]

Something of a side issue but I can't help but notice that much of this debate has been between srb7677 (whose soul was clearly forged in the fires of socialist purity) on the one hand and Tommy and DD (ex Labour voters) on the other.

The great thing about the left is that it can always make time to piss off  its potential supporters 

When we win it will not be with their support. To lurch far enough to the right to appeal to DD would lose us far more votes than we could possibly gain, for one thing.

When can you win? Whos  support would you need?  I ask because in a number of posts you show a considerable disdain for what you broadly describe as Blairites.  Which encourages the  notion that the   left can Indeed piss off its potential
supporters .  If Labour are to succeed , they have to embrace anyone who isn't dyed in the wool Tory. Label them if you wish but don't denigrate them as not left enough. Realise that your true enemies will encourage division in your ranks at every opportunity , play their  tune and you will never win. A huge percentage of Labours potential vote could be described  as Blairite . Forget that and the Tories have you right where they need you to be.

Nah I prefer Steves take on it, going back to lying constantly to the electorate will never work again. Which is really what your previous voters are actually saying, except Smurf who ain't exactly in the real world.

[papasmurf]

A huge percentage of Labours potential vote could be described  as Blairite . Forget that and the Tories have you right where they need you to be.

Five million of Labour's core vote left when it became obvious Blair was Tory mark two. Plus Blair and New Labour did precisely nothing for them, and why Unions still pay £millions to Labour remains a mystery to me, they are getting nothing for it.

[Thomas]

I am not going to defend an antisemite.

Dont then.

You certainly have spent plenty of time denying their existence in the labour party across a number of threads .

It is worth reminding you that it wasn't the Tories or the Labour right that stood shoulder to shoulder with the Jews against the anti-semitic fascist scum led by Mosley at Cable Street in the 30s.

and this is what i talk about , all you have is to delve into the warm cuddly past of nigh on a century ago for excuses , but fail to see the sickness in your movement and party here today.

[Thomas]

Kezia Dugdale was just another frigging Blairite. What else would you expect? Lmfao.

Curious to see that you are rushing to the defence of Blairites in order to attack me,

She was head of scottish labour whatever her faults were. One minute you talk abour reason moderacy and reconciliation , the next  , you are screaming hatred at anyone who refuses to confrom to your hard left momemtum views.

In this case kezia dugdale.

You are no moderate , as post after post shows.

[Good old]

Something of a side issue but I can't help but notice that much of this debate has been between srb7677 (whose soul was clearly forged in the fires of socialist purity) on the one hand and Tommy and DD (ex Labour voters) on the other.

The great thing about the left is that it can always make time to piss off  its potential supporters 

When we win it will not be with their support. To lurch far enough to the right to appeal to DD would lose us far more votes than we could possibly gain, for one thing.

When can you win? Whos  support would you need?  I ask because in a number of posts you show a considerable disdain for what you broadly describe as Blairites.  Which encourages the  notion that the   left can Indeed piss off its potential
supporters .  If Labour are to succeed , they have to embrace anyone who isn't dyed in the wool Tory. Label them if you wish but don't denigrate them as not left enough. Realise that your true enemies will encourage division in your ranks at every opportunity , play their  tune and you will never win. A huge percentage of Labours potential vote could be described  as Blairite . Forget that and the Tories have you right where they need you to be.

[Thomas]

Such claims have often been exaggerated, unfortunately, by such as he, an incorrigible Blairite. I wish they were true. The Blairites sought to undermine their own party at every stage because they opposed the leadership, briefing in the right wing press, spreading malicious bullshit, constantly plotting. We on the left should have fought against these soft Thatcherite scum much more robustly.

Rubbish. The holier than thou hard left went around scotland attacking all and sundry who didnt conform to their zealot like views and momentum agenda.

You constantly talk about being moderate and reasonable , but when push comes to shove , everyone could see who the moderate left were , and it wasnt the momentum zealots.

And what a sorry state of affairs. You are now reduced to defending the Blairite Ian Murray against me, when we both know Scots rejected everything Blair stands for.

Who was in charge of labour last december ? Tony blair or jeremy corbyn , when labour went down to their worst defeat in cotland in the best part of a century?

Scotland rejected jeremy feckin corbyn , hard left momemtum and all your zealots last december.

The so called "hard left" of my party that you so deride (you don't know what the real hard left is, clearly) were guilty of the terrible crime in your eyes of wanting to implement moderately socialist policies throughout the UK of a kind already implemented by the SNP in Scotland. So how come it's ok for you guys but suddenly "hard left" when it's us?

Oh so the snp are now back being left wing , when labour have spent the last 30 years if not more of my life calling them the tartan tories?

To try and conflate the snp with hard left momentum really does show the lunacy of your arguments , not to mention how little you know of scotland.

Whatever else hard left momentum are , you are certainly no feckin moderates.

I am coming to the conclusion that you are just another angry Scot whose anger is blinding you to reason.

LMFAO. Anyone who doesnt agree with the totalitarian hard left zealots is angry/racist/tartan tories/prejudiced/unreasonable blah feckin blah.

How can you on the hard left of labour possibly argue that you are being reasoned in debate when you come out with feckin large whoppers like freedom for palestine , freedom for norhtern ireland and any other country , just not you jocks , doesnt apply to you.

You cry racist at the drop of a hat , while you champion terrorist organistations like the IRA or Hamas.

You have no reasoned argument , just  hatred of those who refuse to follow your blind ideology.

[srb7677]

the real working class don't want your condescending attitude, we can form our own opinions, thanks

That's rather arrogant isn't it? What makes you think you speak for the working class any more than I do?

Fact is they are neither a bunch of clones of me or of you but a collection of millions of individuals each with their own opinions and experiences. But at least we on the left have attempted to formulate policies designed to address many of their concerns, whereas Blair largely ignored them. Higher minimum wage, an end to zero hours and faux self employment, full workers rights from day 1, the right for part time workers to have more hours, more social housing, rent caps and security of tenure in the private rental sector, more invested in the NHS and in schools, free university education, an expansion of vocational training, higher taxes on the wealthy few, a crackdown on tax avoidance by the wealthy elites, an extension of union rights to those workers who want them.

Could we do more? Of course. But we are already being criticised for promising too much. But these are policies designed to appeal to and to help the struggling working classes. What has anyone else got to offer them?