Met caught out targetting Black drivers..?

[srb7677]

When you have finished shouting and screaming at me my moderate friend , you should really take the time and read some of the articles , some good advice and insight into why the hard left momentum labour lost the election.

We were not "hard" left at all, merely left. Democratic socialists and social democrats. That is just another risible misrepresentation beloved of the right and of Blairites.

And I have read the shit you quoted. Utter Blairite revisionist shit.

You despise the Blairites. Yet think we have to be them to win. You are confused. As well as prone to wilful, dubiously motivated, misrepresentations intended to be provocative.

Our resident angry Scot ranting to the tune of his Tory forum friends, whom you seem to have an affinity for. Another example of confusion from our SNP zealot. An SNP Scot who sings from Tory and Blairite hymn sheets. Politically I wouldn't trust your ilk as far as I could throw your car.

[srb7677]

It was not just the man, it was the far-leftist ideology and the sectarian culture around that man that did it.

What a load of shite. Our "far-leftist ideology" consisted in fact of a raft of moderate policies, each of which when polled were very popular. It is Blairite shit to brand these as the cause of our defeat. They never liked the policies in the first place and hated their popularity, so now they just cannot wait to try and dishonestly blame them.

As for the sectarian shit, most of it came from the Blairite right with their incessant factionalism, plotting, briefings in the Tory press, and overt electoral sabotage. Yes sectarianism was a massive problem, but it wasn't the left causing it.

[Thomas]

our very own momentum hard left friend( or should that be corbynite left - same thing) SRB.

Listen you ignorant piece of work, how many times do I have to tell you I am neither hard left nor momentum. So if you have any f**king integrity at all stop mislabelling me. Or are you trying to be the very caricature of the ignorant yet angry Scot?

When you have finished shouting and screaming at me my moderate friend , you should really take the time and read some of the articles , some good advice and insight into why the hard left momentum labour lost the election.

[Thomas]

our very own momentum hard left friend( or should that be corbynite left - same thing) SRB.

Listen you ignorant piece of work, how many times do I have to tell you I am neither hard left nor momentum. So if you have any f**king integrity at all stop mislabelling me. Or are you trying to be the very caricature of the ignorant yet angry Scot?

course mate no need to get angry and blow your wee hard left top.

You arent hard left , im not snp ,and pappy smurf isnt a labour supporter.

[Thomas]

Unable to confront the disaster they and their comrades had spawned, the only option left was to grimly cling to their own self-righteousness. In a column for the Observer, Corbyn claimed, astoundingly, that despite having lost the election, "we have won the arguments and rewritten the terms of political debate." So far the only senior figure to accept some part of the blame for Labour's defeat is John McDonnell.

They're stunned — but they really shouldn't be. The pollster Peter Kellner predicted the general election result in these very pages weeks ago. But more than this, it was clear from the start that Corbyn was simply a re-run of the old hard left ideas that sprouted up in Britain during the 1980s, most memorably in the form of Militant. That brush with the hard, Trotskyist left almost destroyed Labour. It took the guile and determination of Neil Kinnock to root them out.

The electoral consequences of Militant were catastrophic for the left, just as Michael Foot had been before them. Corbyn is little more than the latest installment in a dynasty of hard left failure. The Marxian dreamers have learned again the old lesson that Britain doesn't want it and won't vote for it

https://www.thearticle.com/why-britain-doesnt-vote-for-the-hard-left

[srb7677]

our very own momentum hard left friend( or should that be corbynite left - same thing) SRB.

Listen you ignorant piece of work, how many times do I have to tell you I am neither hard left nor momentum. So if you have any fucking integrity at all stop mislabelling me. Or are you trying to be the very caricature of the ignorant yet angry Scot?

[Thomas]

Labour has no hope of rebuilding unless it breaks the cold grip of the hard left

Another sign that they will not let go without a fight is their extreme reluctance to take any responsibility for the electoral apocalypse that they engineered. Mr Corbyn displays a typically attractive combination of preening self-righteousness and self-exculpation when he insists that he "won the argument" even after smashing the party down to its lowest level of parliamentary representation since 1935. This is worse than risible. It is also characteristically irresponsible and wilfully destructive. He will have done his final disservice to the party if he succeeds in deceiving Labour members into believing that this defeat wasn't so bad after all.

The Corbynite excuses for their colossal failure have come in thin and fast. Blame the media is the laziest. Yes, a lot of the media were hostile to Labour, but since this has always been the case and always will be, any half-competent leader has to have a plan to deal with it. The worst trashing of the brand was not perpetrated by the Tory press, but by the Corbynites themselves. Carrying on what Ed Miliband stupidly started, they relentlessly vilified the Labour government of 1997 to 2010. It was harder to ask for a vote for Labour when it had nothing good to say about the last time it commanded powe

Another favoured Corbynite alibi is Brexit. It is true that Brexit placed great stress on Labour's electoral coalition. The test of leadership was to manage those strains successfully. The fractures were instead made more acute because the leader was a furtive Brexiter whose unwillingness to pick a side reinforced the other doubts about his fitness to be prime minister. Labour's vote fell in Leave seats. It also went down in Remain seats. We should not forget that the Conservatives' electoral coalition was also stressed by Brexit. Recall that 21 Remainer Tory MPs were purged for rebelling before the election. The Conservatives won because they kept most of their vote together while also taking support off Labour. Millions of Tory Remainers backed Boris Johnson when they might have done something different had Labour been under more appealing and less scary leadership. As much as many of them found Brexit appalling, these critical voters found the idea of a Corbynite government even more repulsive

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/22/labour-has-no-hope-of-rebuilding-unless-it-breaks-cold-grip-of-the-hard-left


Good article in the guardian , much of it is literally word for word all the pie in the sky excuses , delusion and denial we are hearing from our very own momentum hard left friend( or should that be corbynite left - same thing) SRB.

That is too convenient for the many others who enabled this catastrophe by cheering him on as he led Labour towards the abyss, or were complicit by staying silent when they should have spoken up. Heaping all the culpability on one man will ultimately suit the continuity Corbynites seeking to install one of their own as the next leader. They will say there was nothing wrong with Corbynism except Corbyn. Brilliant experiment – shame about JC. We only have to get ourselves a Corbynite leader "without Jeremy's unfortunate baggage" and we are all set to win in 2024. This will be their version of the Marxist's favourite excuse for communism's multiple failures. There's nothing wrong with Corbynism; it just hasn't been tried properly.

So others contesting for the leadership need to be very clear with the party's members that there was a lot more wrong with Corbynism than its frontman. It was not solely his fault that Labour became so noxious to so many that it simultaneously repelled traditional supporters and swing voters. It was not just the man, it was the far-leftist ideology and the sectarian culture around that man that did it. Corbynism promised a "kinder, gentler" politics, only to make the party hideously nasty in the eyes of anyone who had not imbibed the cult's flavour of Kool-Aid. Corbynism promised a party answerable to the members only to concentrate all the power in the hands of a tiny cabal of pseudo-revolutionary socialists and fellow travellers. Corbynism fomented a sickness that facilitated the poisonous spread of antisemitism. Corbynism unleashed a factional zealotry that preferred to hunt down internal heretics who deviated from the true faith and brand them as "Tories" rather than try to win converts amongst the electorate. Corbynism preferred to be a glorified protest movement complacently luxuriating in a narcissistic conceit of its own moral superiority rather than do the hard and honest thinking required to secure office. Corbynism produced a fantasy programme that voters found literally incredible.

The election result was a comprehensive rejection not just of Jeremy Corbyn, but the ideology and culture to which he gave his name. Only if Labour confronts and grasps this truth will it have any hope of rebuilding itself as a serious contender for power

Far left ideology and sectarian culture which made the party hideaously nasty and sick in the eyes of those outside the momentum bubble.

Hard to argue against any of it.

[Thomas]

...and here is labour list posting an article attacking the new mometum leadership who blamed the election defeat not on thehard left or corbyn , but labour councils apparently implemeting tory austerity.

There people are feckin  nuts.

The new Momentum leadership, far from building a consensus for a future Labour government, has used one of its first media releases to attack Labour-led councils that have spent the last ten years fighting to protect services, save jobs and see Labour returned to power at a national, as well as local, level.

https://labourlist.org/2020/07/momentums-new-leadership-is-wrong-to-attack-labour-councils/

[Thomas]

Main reasons former labour voters ( like myself and deppity and many others)  backed other parties in december.....

one of the key reasons that led former Labour voters to back other parties. The main reasons in this poll were Jeremy Corbyn's leadership (35%), Brexit (19%), and policy/economic Incompetence (16%). These figures broadly correlate with a similar poll conducted by Lord Ashcroft, with the most popular reason record for defection being unhappiness with Corbyn's leadership. Again, Labour councils did not feature in the results.

SRB tells us policy was popular , jeremy was loved and the "moderates" on the hard left just really good guys .

Polling tells us the exact opposite.

Voters had clearly gone off Jeremy Corbyn

jeremy corbyn was a disaster who turned off the voting public.



Brexit policy as we know , but according to SRB other policy was popualr?

Not accroding to this poll...

"pie in the sky hard left policy that was not realistically deliverable...

But the party clearly struggled with other policies as well

With Brexit dominating the discussion so far, it is also important not to forget the importance of other policy areas, which was mentioned by 16% of those who abandoned Labour.   

In most cases, this was to do with the economic policies proposed in the manifesto and a feeling this time around that they are undeliverable and would cost too much.

This is consistent with polling before the election, which showed that the majority (63%) thought that Labour's policies are not realistically deliverable, and that the party would not deliver on its promises.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/12/23/their-own-words-why-voters-abandoned-labour

https://lordashcroftpolls.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/DIAGNOSIS-OF-DEFEAT-LORD-ASHCROFT-POLLS-1.pdf


Talk about being delusional. It was all brexit and the blairites fault SRB tells us , but further digging shows many flaws in the hard left corbyn momemtum labour that voters just did not feckin like , including the man himself and idiotic pie in the sky policy.

[Thomas]

   The idea that all Britain's Labour party needs to do to win is offer true socialism has been tested to destruction. Under Jeremy Corbyn's disastrous leadership, armed with his "radical and transformative" manifesto, the party sank to its lowest seat total since 1935. Already locked out of its traditional heartlands in Scotland, Labour's "red wall" of seats from north Wales across northern England crumbled.

   This was one of the most notable defeats in postwar British politics. The swing against the Labour party was huge. It lost votes in every part of the country, on the right to the Brexit and Conservative parties, in the centre to the Liberal Democrats and on the left to the Greens. As a parliamentary force it is hugely diminished; it may now be out of power for 15 years before it enters government again. The author of this defeat, above all, is Mr Corbyn.

....and the bit mr SRB and the "moderates" in hard left mometum just dont get..........

   

His leadership, and the hard left cult who surround him, have alienated potential supporters across the board. Traditional Labour voters were turned off by his leadership style and personal failings. His support for unsavoury authoritarian regimes and his grossly inadequate response to anti-Semitism in Labour's ranks added to the sense that he was unfit to be prime minister.

https://www.ft.com/content/168f5814-1dc6-11ea-9186-7348c2f183af


One of lives little constants is the fact labour never ever learn lessons..........its always the stupid voters fault that we werent bright enough to get their "moderate" hard left momemtum message.

[Thomas]

I wish you'd take your fingers out of your ears. For the umpteenth time we are not hard left but actually moderate left with a moderate manifesto containing many SNP policies for the whole UK.

And many of us are not "momentum types" either.

You are indulging in false caricature of people you clearly don't know and don't understand.

We are far less left wing than Labour was in 83

Well i disagree.

You keep trying to paint yourself as the "moderate left" , but then the mask keeps slipping with references to blairite scum , thatcherite policies or calling moderate northern nelgish folk like deppity dawg "a right winger" , a guy who is a working class council estate born and bred former labour voter like myself.

[Thomas]

Re any indyref in Scotland.

My own position on it is quite clear and I doubt whether the Labour left would disagree very much. The Blairites? Who knows.

But for me it seems morally and democratically obvious that if an SNP majority is elected to Holyrood with a mandate for an independence referendum, then one should be held. The SNP and the other parties and other individuals in general should be free to argue their case for or against independence. But it is the Scottish people who should decide. Whatever they decide, the vote should be honoured. If the Scots choose independence we should help them to facilitate that with good grace and good will. If they don't then their remaining in the union is settled - until or unless another Holyrood majority with a mandate to hold another referendum is elected.

It has been mooted that Scots living elsewhere in the UK should be included, a transparently obvious attempt to shore up the unionist vote. But what about Scots living outside the UK? Should it be a vote of all Scots regardless of where they live? Or all who live in Scotland only, regardless of where they were born? In my own personal opinion the latter makes more sense since these are people living in Scotland, working in Scotland, paying taxes in Scotland, and using Scottish roads and services and obeying Scottish laws (or facing Scottish justice if they don't). And people who would be living in an independent Scotland if it voted that way.

But that's just my opinion. I think the Scots themselves should determine who is eligible to vote.

You are right , it is just your opinion , and hard left labour wurzel and momentum have had more positions on independence than i have had hot dinners.

[Nalaar]

Mod Notice

Removed a number of posts.
Please keep on topic, and at the very least don't derail the thread by slinging personal insults back and forth.

[papasmurf]

Unless the Tories get to look like they're actually in control, and if Labour begin to look confident in the middle ground, the Tories might just get a bloody nose — and so might Johnson, him sooner than we think...

If a leaked government document in the Scum newspaper turns out to be accurate that could be sooner than you think.
Someone on another forum has just posted a rant about it:-

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12474511/emergency-plans-perfect-storm-no-deal-brexit-coronavirus-second-wave/

[patman post]

Voters in the UK seem basically conservative (small c) and reactionary, and appear not to fancy the upheaval that Socialism promises. That's why in the post war years they've chosen between Conservative and traditional Labour — they feel safer than with either the Hard Right or Hard Left.
Socialism has been usually left to motivated individuals and leaders in the Unions to espouse — and as any industrial (in)action invariably disrupts people's daily lives, Labour then suffers in the polls.
Corbyn's surge came mainly from idealistic young wanting change from the mantra of austerity not caring  about Blair and Brown's financial mismanagement.
Today's idealistic young are currently suffering the examination shambles, and are likely to be voting in the next general election.
And there's still Brexit, and Covid19.
Unless the Tories get to look like they're actually in control, and if Labour begin to look confident in the middle ground, the Tories might just get a bloody nose — and so might Johnson, him sooner than we think...