Why Labour lost.

[papasmurf]

Much as it makes me feel dirty to reference the Daily Mail:-

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8677977/Conservatives-Labour-LEVEL-new-opinion-poll.html

Conservatives and Labour are now LEVEL in new opinion poll with just half of voters backing the Government's handling of coronavirus
Labour and the Tories are now level in a shock new survey by pollster Opinium
It marks the first time the Conservatives have not been ahead of Sir Keir Starmer's Labour Party in an Opinium survey for 13 months
New poll comes as MPs prepare to return to Westminster on Tuesday, with furious Conservatives accusing the Government of being rudderless
By JACK WRIGHT FOR MAILONLINE

PUBLISHED: 02:06, 30 August 202

[Sheepy]

This is a good article from 8 years ago regarding the slow destruction of the labour party and the pitfalls of their "groupthink...

The eight symptoms of groupthink were listed by Janis as:

    Illusion of invulnerability – Creates excessive optimism that encourages taking extreme risks.

    Collective rationalization – Members discount warnings and do not reconsider their assumptions.

    Belief in inherent morality – Members believe in the rightness of their cause and therefore ignore the ethical or moral consequences of their decisions.

    Stereotyped views of other groups – Negative views of "enemy" make effective responses to conflict seem unnecessary.

    Direct pressure on dissenters – Members are under pressure not to express arguments against any of the group's views.

    Self-censorship – Doubts and deviations from the perceived group consensus are not expressed.

    Illusion of unanimity – The majority view and judgments are assumed to be unanimous.

    Self-appointed 'mindguards' – Members protect the group and the leader from information that is problematic or contradictory to the group's cohesiveness, view, and/or decisions.



Any of this sound familiar? Let's see if we can spot any of the symptoms in Scottish Labour's well-documented modus operandi.

The primary socially-negative cost of groupthink is the loss of individual creativity, uniqueness, and independent reasoning. Labour has become infected with the groupthink mentality, talking amongst themselves rather than listening to the public. They fail to grasp that it's not that the public aren't listening to them – Labour's problem is that it is, and it doesn't like what it sees anymore

https://wingsoverscotland.com/weekend-essay-groupthink-the-bay-of-pigs-and-the-scottish-labour-party/


This is still as relevant today as it was 8 years ago..

They fail to grasp that it's not that the public aren't listening to them – Labour's problem is that it is, and it doesn't like what it sees anymore

Dumb as rocks ain't they, the working class has fought for democracy for generation after generation and left the blood to prove it, then they think they can use unions to tell them how to vote, best not cross populist red lines then.

[Thomas]

This is a good article from 8 years ago regarding the slow destruction of the labour party and the pitfalls of their "groupthink...

The eight symptoms of groupthink were listed by Janis as:

    Illusion of invulnerability – Creates excessive optimism that encourages taking extreme risks.

    Collective rationalization – Members discount warnings and do not reconsider their assumptions.

    Belief in inherent morality – Members believe in the rightness of their cause and therefore ignore the ethical or moral consequences of their decisions.

    Stereotyped views of other groups – Negative views of "enemy" make effective responses to conflict seem unnecessary.

    Direct pressure on dissenters – Members are under pressure not to express arguments against any of the group's views.

    Self-censorship – Doubts and deviations from the perceived group consensus are not expressed.

    Illusion of unanimity – The majority view and judgments are assumed to be unanimous.

    Self-appointed 'mindguards' – Members protect the group and the leader from information that is problematic or contradictory to the group's cohesiveness, view, and/or decisions.



Any of this sound familiar? Let's see if we can spot any of the symptoms in Scottish Labour's well-documented modus operandi.

The primary socially-negative cost of groupthink is the loss of individual creativity, uniqueness, and independent reasoning. Labour has become infected with the groupthink mentality, talking amongst themselves rather than listening to the public. They fail to grasp that it's not that the public aren't listening to them – Labour's problem is that it is, and it doesn't like what it sees anymore

https://wingsoverscotland.com/weekend-essay-groupthink-the-bay-of-pigs-and-the-scottish-labour-party/


This is still as relevant today as it was 8 years ago..

They fail to grasp that it's not that the public aren't listening to them – Labour's problem is that it is, and it doesn't like what it sees anymore

[Thomas]

Now they desperately want their votes back and will say and do anything to get them, they ain't getting them back. New parties or no new parties.

It all sounds good preaching to the converted down the plymouth labour club , but out in the real world , the folk in the council estates dont want to hear about the evils of blairism , or the migrants in dinghies getting a council house on their estate  , or how they were too stupid to vote for brexit and their vote must be overturned by those who know better.

They dont want labours pity either.

All i can say is this constant brit left navel gazing shows that labour or whoever represents the british left have a feckin long way to go before the actually get to understand the voting public.

[Sheepy]

You just dont understand people do you?

Of course they do, they have gotten away with treating the working class as complete idiots for decades, simply by asking them how they think, telling them they think the same, then doing whatever they had as an original plan in the first place and laughing about it all the way, they ain't laughing now.

Exactly sheep.

Labour spent decades punting idealistic fantasy to the gullible and relying solely on" my father voted labour so i will too" mantra.

Then the world changed , new voters came on the electoral role  , who werent prepared to listen to their bullshit , and labour got left behind unable to come to terms with the modern world about them .

All they want to talk about is saving the poor , helping the oppressed and the nhs ( just not in wales).

Its laughable listening to it , and when the big arguments come along  like scot indy , brexit , migrants in dinghies etc etc labour are on the opposite side to the public and get squashed.

When you trawl back over labours record the few times they have actually been in power , the only argument you ever hear is to blame all the bad things on blair .

More sense out of listening to a broken down record.

Now they desperately want their votes back and will say and do anything to get them, they ain't getting them back. New parties or no new parties.

[Thomas]

You just dont understand people do you?

Of course they do, they have gotten away with treating the working class as complete idiots for decades, simply by asking them how they think, telling them they think the same, then doing whatever they had as an original plan in the first place and laughing about it all the way, they ain't laughing now.

Exactly sheep.

Labour spent decades punting idealistic fantasy to the gullible and relying solely on" my father voted labour so i will too" mantra.

Then the world changed , new voters came on the electoral role  , who werent prepared to listen to their bullshit , and labour got left behind unable to come to terms with the modern world about them .

All they want to talk about is saving the poor , helping the oppressed and the nhs ( just not in wales).

Its laughable listening to it , and when the big arguments come along  like scot indy , brexit , migrants in dinghies etc etc labour are on the opposite side to the public and get squashed.

When you trawl back over labours record the few times they have actually been in power , the only argument you ever hear is to blame all the bad things on blair .

More sense out of listening to a broken down record.

[Sheepy]

You just dont understand people do you?

Of course they do, they have gotten away with treating the working class as complete idiots for decades, simply by asking them how they think, telling them they think the same, then doing whatever they had as an original plan in the first place and laughing about it all the way, they ain't laughing now.

[DeppityDawg]

But where I do take some issue though is in your apparent claim to be speaking for the white working classes. You are just one person.

I don't think I claimed to be speaking for the 'white working class' did I? I was expressing an opinion (which tends to happen on discussion forums). This extends to (for example) what I hear around me from peers and those I know, to such things as media articles and comments. I'm not aware that me expressing an opinion precludes you from expressing yours?

I've lived in the North East of England for 25 years now - these communities are heavily white working class - I don't "speak" for these communities either, but I'm familiar with a lot of their views and concerns. One of which frequently heard is that the Labour party are now the "party of the Middle class" or in a similar vein "lives and breathes in London" These are all opinions too. If one person states an opinion, its one opinion. If you hear the same or similar opinions a hundred times, then its "common opinion". What is hard to understand?

EDIT - btw the North East (remember that many of these seats have never been conservative) demonstrated that feeling clearly and unmistakably at the last election by voting out Labour in a way never before seen

[Thomas]

To some extent I agree, and Blairism/ New Labourism is riven with notions of middle class triumphalism.

if i had a pound for every time you blamed blairism for the worlds evils srb , i would be a very rich man.

Deppity has made it very clear over the last four or five years of debating with him his feelings on jeremy corbyn , not a blairite , corbyns henchmen and moderate hard left labour .

Deppity seems to have more of a problem with non blairite labour from what i have read than blairite labour , and generally is disgusted by middle class left wing attitude and liberalism.

Wurzel was seen by all and sundry as an islington multi millionaire champagne socialist , and that term was coined many a year ago long before tony blair took control of the labour party.

But where I do take some issue though is in your apparent claim to be speaking for the white working classes

He seems to be more in tune with the white english working class than you do.

If your political view is a majority opinion , why did your politics fail so very badly at the last election?

Theres only so much mileage you can get out of blaming blairism brexit and all the rest.

[Thomas]

That leaves a significant amount of people who do care according to your own numbers.

Ahhh!. That famous word from the british left......."significant". Significant isnt a majority though is it dyno...?

If the british left want to chase the 41% of the vote who dont want to dump norn ireland to get brexit , and the tories get to play with the other 59 % , i wonder what will happen election time?

Thats of course you making a large leap in faith here as well , and that the 41% do actualy care about the northern irish , rather than folk who just like the idea of england still owning foreign countries. A bit like a child with an old toy they never play with , but dont want anyone else to have.....

And it doesn't matter, because the whole point is to convince people by showing them the history.

Convince them?

What like BLM protests , you are going to shove irish history down peoples throats wether they are interested or not?

The totalitarian brit left strike again!

We have an old saying in scotland , about taking a horse to water but not being able to make it drink.

Your own info states just 6% know the history - and if they did, they would probably feel differently.

You are making the presumption the other 94% want to learn , which you dont in any way know for sure.......and then making the further presumption if they did all learn , they would come out on northern irelands side.( and then vote labour )

But it's the principle of standing up for what's right.

Exactly what i am saying. The british left are yet again standing up for a seemingly "oppressed minority" , while the tories are telling the english electorate we are standing up for you ,the english people and labour are against you.

No wonder the brit left are serial losers , and the tories an election winning machine with this childlike naivety on display here.

- I expect them to bring this issue up and fight for the rights of everyone, including NI Catholics, and to support independence for Scotland.

...but i dont want you to dyno. Dont you see , what we want is for you , and your fellow countrymen , left right centrist or whoever , to keep your beaks out of our affairs.

If you spent more time concentrating on your own country , you might be in a better place.

If there's anything more heroically stupid than that, I can't think of it, but they will get there eventually I'm sure of it.

Borkie is right though isnt he?

While the british left are spouting idealistic fantasy to the public , the tories are getting right to the nub of the issue and jumping on the publics side and winning elections.

You know like december.

We had the british left telling all and sundry you cant have brexit , we are disrespecting your 2016 vote , its for your own good you know , while the tories cleared all the remain puppets out their party and told the public, we are on your side vote for us , and you had labours northern english red wall running to the voting booths to vote tory.

You just dont understand people do you?

[srb7677]

There is a huge feeling among the white working class that Labour is the party of middle class liberals and no longer represents us.

To some extent I agree, and Blairism/ New Labourism is riven with notions of middle class triumphalism.

But where I do take some issue though is in your apparent claim to be speaking for the white working classes. You are just one person. I too am white working class, why should my claims to be speaking for them count for any more nor any less than yours? And I have been fighting for progressive left wing policies that effectively address many working class concerns re housing, job security, and pay. This too can be viewed as fighting for the white working class - indeed the working class of all colours - from inside the party. We are in danger of losing that fight right now and may struggle to win working class support in consequence. Our party has not learnt all the right lessons from our defeat I fear but has learned many wrong ones I also fear.

[DeppityDawg]

Frankly I have never understood Northern Ireland

Clearly, along with 94% of the rest of the population

Anyway I would prefer a new party to Labour, we need a new party that reflects England. I don't think Labour can deliver anything, there's too much infighting and bad history.

I agree. There is a huge feeling among the white working class that Labour is the party of middle class liberals and no longer represents us. So where would this new party lie on the spectrum though? How do you appeal to the white working class without attracting the usual 'racist' accusations from the woke liberal left?

[srb7677]

The truth is, England needs new parties.

I kind of agree with you. Problem is FPTP massively suppresses the rise of new parties. For this to be viable we first need electoral reform with a much more proportional voting system. Labour alone is two parties in one - a centrist grouping of left of centre social democrats and right of centre Blairites comfortable with Thatcherism-lite - and a more steadfastly socialist and anti-Thatcherite left. Neither will leave Labour because FPTP guarantees electoral oblivion if they do. So instead the fight for control and for power takes place within the party.

If you want new political parties to arise, you first need electoral reform. The Tories will never embrace that. The only chance is for the argument in favour of that to be won in Labour where strong elements support it. And for a Labour government at some point, probably in alliance with other supporting parties on the issue, to introduce it. The media and the Tories will scream to high heaven about it of course. But ultimately we need PR for new parties to arise, and we need at least some of the existing parties to deliver that. This is the crux of our dilemma.

[papasmurf]

Its a pity Frank Kitson didn't have you there to put him right isn't it? It would all have been over in five minutes and we could have all fecked off back to Germany for beer and schnitzls

Frankly I have never understood Northern Ireland. (Does anyone.)  As for Frank Kitson I doubt the truth will ever be known.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/british-general-faces-lawsuit-over-death-of-catholic-during-troubles-1.2190032

[Borg Refinery]

Brits increasingly don't care whether Northern Ireland remains in UK

It appears there is significant disinterest amongst the British public regarding the future of Northern Ireland, as more than half of all Brits (54%) say they would not be bothered either way by the region leaving the UK.

Not only do many Brits feel distant from the island of Ireland, the subject of Irish history is something few seem to have engaged in. Just 6% of the public say they have studied Irish Home Rule and the Troubles whilst at school

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/04/22/brits-increasingly-dont-care-whether-northern-irel

So the british left are going all out to plead the moral high ground for an area that the majority couldnt care less about in the rest of the yookay , especially england.

Yep definite winning formula there dyno.

That leaves a significant amount of people who do care according to your own numbers. And it doesn't matter, because the whole point is to convince people by showing them the history.

Your own info states just 6% know the history - and if they did, they would probably feel differently.

I feel that adequately proves my point. But it's the principle of standing up for what's right.

Anyway I would prefer a new party to Labour, we need a new party that reflects England. I don't think Labour can deliver anything, there's too much infighting and bad history.

So I have no 'electoral strategy' for Labour. But any future party I support - I expect them to bring this issue up and fight for the rights of everyone, including NI Catholics, and to support independence for Scotland.

A policy so heroically stupid that I can't see how the brothers and sisters can possibly resist it 

It's not quite up there with sacrificing oneself for herd immunity. Dan Patrick of Texas would be proud..

If there's anything more heroically stupid than that, I can't think of it, but they will get there eventually I'm sure of it.

The truth is, England needs new parties.