Why Labour lost.

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Another thread ruined by spamming and off topic posts. Thomas, especially, give it a rest.

Thread closed.

Update - spam and off topic deleted, thread remains closed as it has run its course.

[srb7677]

Now who's had a sense of humour bypass? Lol. I chose those carricatures deliberately for humorous effect, much as Dynamis seems to enjoy ribbing you with pictures of Rab C Nesbitt, which makes me chuckle somewhat.

Sense of humour by pass?

Well lets see what you said on here recently about the subject during one of your holier than thou moral crusades....

This long-winded "debate" over semantics is most tiresome.

Fact is that whilst some wrongdoers might accuse the police or their accusers of racism as some kind of attempt at a defence or mitigation, I think only a fool would try to claim that many stated experiences of racism are bullshit. They are likely to have been perceived as genuinely racist by the person on the receiving end in many cases. And anecdotal though it may be, the fact that many of us have witnessed with our own eyes and ears many racist incidents over the years does tend to suggest a certain degree of ubiquity.

In my view those trying to deny this and believing it is all bollocks generally have an interest in downplaying the reality of racism for whatever motive.

- the relatively widespread nature of often lower level racism, often of a verbal nature,

According to the surveys quoted nearly a fifth of the population think some races are are born less intelligent than others The inferences are obvious.

And I and everyone I know have witnessed numerous racist incidents, mostly of a verbal nature.

I am not saying that this means most Brits are racist as you seem to want to assume, but clearly there is a substantial minority who are.





So whilst every person accused of a racist crime is innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the law, the likelihood is that a majority of them are guilty and will be found to be such.

It is also notable that according to this evidence, reported incidents of hate crimes have greatly increased year on year since 2013. Do you not find this a worrying trend or will you bury your head in the sand about that too?

It is also obvious to anyone with a few brain cells that reported incidents will not include a lot of lower level verbal racist comments. As my first piece of linked evidence demonstrates, nearly a fifth of the population have overtly racist opinions.

These are overtly racist assumptions, signposting the prevalence of racist thinking. And the fact that these are the most staunchly anti-immigration types demonstrates a pattern.

If you cannot see that, then you are wilfully blind because you emotionally do not want to see it.
Yet you deny the prevalence of racist attitudes? In spite of my evidence, which you appear not to have read properly?

Labour has always been an anti-racist party - and that is one thing that unites both the left and the Blairites. We have also, however, always been a party that stands against oppression - which is the whole problem

I mean we could go on and on all day bringing up those nuggets of highly moralistic  gold you were spouting on this forum the other week  from the top of your ivery tower , then we see the real SRB , down in the dirt like the rest of us engaging in the very same prejudice he was lectuirng everyone else about.

Feckin comedy gold.

Thanks for giving fresh publicity to my views.

Though you are confusing my criticism of nasty racism with a little ribbing of your good self using caricature, because - frankly - you were asking for it. If you cannot take a bit of ribbing at your own expense you shouldn't dish it out, mocking my non-existent use of waccy baccie. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

[Sheepy]

Half the world knows I live in Hastings. I gave dynamis a hint with the Covid pavement. 1066 we never forget.

Feck sake sheep , that makes you half french. You are closer to paris than glasgow.

LOL but I was born 8 miles from the oldest known Briton, where they say his DNA is still rife. but don't tell anyone because the place will be filled with Neo Liberals before you can say Labour has zero chance.

[Thomas]

Now who's had a sense of humour bypass? Lol. I chose those carricatures deliberately for humorous effect, much as Dynamis seems to enjoy ribbing you with pictures of Rab C Nesbitt, which makes me chuckle somewhat.

Sense of humour by pass?

Well lets see what you said on here recently about the subject during one of your holier than thou moral crusades....

This long-winded "debate" over semantics is most tiresome.

Fact is that whilst some wrongdoers might accuse the police or their accusers of racism as some kind of attempt at a defence or mitigation, I think only a fool would try to claim that many stated experiences of racism are bullshit. They are likely to have been perceived as genuinely racist by the person on the receiving end in many cases. And anecdotal though it may be, the fact that many of us have witnessed with our own eyes and ears many racist incidents over the years does tend to suggest a certain degree of ubiquity.

In my view those trying to deny this and believing it is all bollocks generally have an interest in downplaying the reality of racism for whatever motive.

- the relatively widespread nature of often lower level racism, often of a verbal nature,

According to the surveys quoted nearly a fifth of the population think some races are are born less intelligent than others The inferences are obvious.

And I and everyone I know have witnessed numerous racist incidents, mostly of a verbal nature.

I am not saying that this means most Brits are racist as you seem to want to assume, but clearly there is a substantial minority who are.





So whilst every person accused of a racist crime is innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the law, the likelihood is that a majority of them are guilty and will be found to be such.

It is also notable that according to this evidence, reported incidents of hate crimes have greatly increased year on year since 2013. Do you not find this a worrying trend or will you bury your head in the sand about that too?

It is also obvious to anyone with a few brain cells that reported incidents will not include a lot of lower level verbal racist comments. As my first piece of linked evidence demonstrates, nearly a fifth of the population have overtly racist opinions.

These are overtly racist assumptions, signposting the prevalence of racist thinking. And the fact that these are the most staunchly anti-immigration types demonstrates a pattern.

If you cannot see that, then you are wilfully blind because you emotionally do not want to see it.
Yet you deny the prevalence of racist attitudes? In spite of my evidence, which you appear not to have read properly?

Labour has always been an anti-racist party - and that is one thing that unites both the left and the Blairites. We have also, however, always been a party that stands against oppression - which is the whole problem

I mean we could go on and on all day bringing up those nuggets of highly moralistic  gold you were spouting on this forum the other week  from the top of your ivery tower , then we see the real SRB , down in the dirt like the rest of us engaging in the very same prejudice he was lectuirng everyone else about.

Feckin comedy gold.

[Thomas]

Now who's had a sense of humour bypass?

See my post on the other thread.

Next time someone casually makes a joke about a black minority , i fully expect you not to get on your high horse and scweam wacist , or we might have to  remind you of your recent performance and tell you to get a sense of humour.

My how those high morals soon go out the window when it suits eh SRB?

By the way , i see your momentum buddy ricky leopard ( north british labour  branch manager in jockland) is scweaming the jocks are racist as they wont vote for him at election time.

LMFAO!

Nice but dim labour party msp james kelly politely took him to the side and told him its not because you are a sassunnach ricky , its because you are shite at your job.

[srb7677]

I can take a joke and a bit of ribbing to be sure  , but i can't help commenting on the anti scottish racism inherent in your post with all the old racist caricatures of the jocks from someone who was on the black lives matter thread lecturing me about racism  and prejudice.

Funny as feck  , and shows the utter duplicity of those on the left with their high strung morals about right and wrong and how easliy they are discarded aside when it suits.

Your a feckin fraud srb. like your party.

Now who's had a sense of humour bypass? Lol. I chose those carricatures deliberately for humorous effect, much as Dynamis seems to enjoy ribbing you with pictures of Rab C Nesbitt, which makes me chuckle somewhat.

Anyway, here's a wee song to cheer you up....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yw0bLHTOb0

[Borg Refinery]

. but I honestly and truthfully could not see him being any worse than Bojo.

The honest truth and you can take it as you like , i disagree.

I think corbyn was labours theresa may. I personally thought he was a disaster of a politician , more suited to the brothers and sisters conspiring down the pub than running a country.

Just my opinion.

We all have our political opinions ,and on occassion can admire political opponents. Corbyn wasnt one to admire in any way shape or form , and to my mind , while his heart may have been in the right place in terms of certain issues , his stupidity and naivety as a politician overrode everything else.

That's completely fair enough, a lot of people shared your opinion even here in Hastings who would normally vote Labour.

I accept I'm in a tiny minority here, and you lot on here are more tolerant than elsewhere, for whatever that's worth.. I know you guys just can't help ribbing people.

[Thomas]

. but I honestly and truthfully could not see him being any worse than Bojo.

The honest truth and you can take it as you like , i disagree.

I think corbyn was labours theresa may. I personally thought he was a disaster of a politician , more suited to the brothers and sisters conspiring down the pub than running a country.

Just my opinion.

We all have our political opinions ,and on occassion can admire political opponents. Corbyn wasnt one to admire in any way shape or form , and to my mind , while his heart may have been in the right place in terms of certain issues , his stupidity and naivety as a politician overrode everything else.

[Borg Refinery]

I don't really understand why there are so many theories as to why Labour lost and will continue to do so. It's simple.

The women saw through them. They watched as Corbyn promised the earth. They saw how unstable he was and that he could only lose his temper if crossed. They recognised a man who although skilled in whipping up a young audience gave little else and had only one script. They saw someone not fit to be PM on all sorts of fronts. His lack of respect to those institutions held dear in this country, his lack of statesmanship (although BJ can fudge that one well enough), his lack of tolerance and the risk of a party that had no effective leader and who played both sides to the middle on Brexit. They saw a party battling with itself and then they worked on the menfolk by pointing out in clear terms the Labour failings.

Many recognise the female ability to see character or lack of it. Labour lacked and women lead the country in their vote.  My mother voted Labour all her adult life - I am pretty certain that even she would not vote for Labour now. She was a very good judge of character.

It was wurzel v wurzel, the difference is that Corbyn's got some compassion even though he was very flawed, whereas Bojo is ruthless, incompetent and a buffoon all at once. Hey 2 out of 3 is better where that's concerned, when we're talking Corbyn.

I feel vindicated by Bojo's terrible actions..

Oh no I really can't see any way to justify that. Corbyn is a nonsense! His 'compassion' is highly selective and reserved for those whom he sees as the underdogs and fuel for his communist leanings. Power was his god not for the sake of the country but as validation of his ideology. He duped many with his dear old man facade which was designed to conceal his true incompetent, indecisive self. I thank our good luck and massive national common sense that he was not in No 10 to oversee Covid, because the puppeteers pulling his strings while Labour leader were even worse than him.

Fair enough if that's your view Toots.

I personally saw Corbyn as a bit misguided but compassionate - I accept he was surrounded by idiots in his shadow cab - but IMHO he wanted to make the country a better place for everyone in general. I feel a lot of the criticisms you make really apply more-so to Johnson, tbh.

Okay, maybe that does sound a bit naive and unicorn territory.. but I honestly and truthfully could not see him being any worse than Bojo.

[Thomas]

I don't disagree that I despise the Blairites, though that is as much because of their behaviour as to their policy positions.

I am in a jury still out mode in regards to Starmer. How much I oppose him or whether I do depends mostly on policy. But I will oppose any lurch to a Blairite right.

I will however add a little nuance. I am guilty of attributing the lazy name "Blairites" to the whole of New Labour, so should perhaps qualify my actual position. There are two types of New Labour politicians, the ideologues and the pragmatists. Both pursued Tory-lite policies and believed they had to accept Thatcherism as irremovable. But the ideologues - personified by Tony Blair - genuinely believed in being right of centre ideologically. The pragmatists - personified by Gordon Brown - remained leftist in their hearts and simply believed they had to be New Labour to win. This shows in policy. Much of the progressive stuff in those years was driven by Gordon Brown as chancellor whilst most of the right wing crap was more down to Blair and those around him.

I do not actually hate the New Labour pragmatists. They are eminently persuadable by demonstrated facts on the ground, like the polling popularity of many of our 2017 policies. But the New Labour ideologues will always oppose such policies come what may for ideological reasons. Blair himself put it this way. He said that even if he thought a left wing manifesto was the route to power he wouldn't take it. Brown on the other hand would jump at the chance. I oppose the ideological Blairites because they oppose me and everything I stand for. And they do it from within my own party.

Im not getting into an argument , im simply pointing out the massive hatred and division within labour. Thats all.

[srb7677]

I think you will find it was the other way around. The Blairite faction constantly stabbing us in the back, briefings in the Tory press, plottings, joining demos against their own party. Some left to attack us from outside, others on their way out urged their constituents to vote conservative. We were the ones being stabbed in the back. Starmer is where he is today purely because he was one of the few wise enough not to participate and to work with the former leadership.

i agree with you fully. I have told you this in the past , although i couldnt stand corbyn , i repeat i thought it despicable the way the blairites did everything within their power from the day he stood for election to the day he went out of office over five years to stab corbyn in the back.

I repeat i fully agree.

However you told me , or insinuated that you were going to do the same with starmer? You as in the "progressive left" of the labour party remember?

The poster good old told you not to cause infighting in the party , as it would only let the tories in , and you responded you hated the blairites as much if not more than the tories?!

So am i not right in what i said that...

while you and your momentum buddies were trying and failing to stab starmer and the blairites in the back , and causing general mayhem in labour with your bitter hatred of the blairite faction

that this has been the case within labour since the general election last year and corbyn stepping down that labour has been consumed internally with bitter infighting and hatred?

You said it yourself amny a time  on here , you utterly despise the blairites in labour and see them as nothing more than tories.

I don't disagree that I despise the Blairites, though that is as much because of their behaviour as to their policy positions.

I am in a jury still out mode in regards to Starmer. How much I oppose him or whether I do depends mostly on policy. But I will oppose any lurch to a Blairite right.

I will however add a little nuance. I am guilty of attributing the lazy name "Blairites" to the whole of New Labour, so should perhaps qualify my actual position. There are two types of New Labour politicians, the ideologues and the pragmatists. Both pursued Tory-lite policies and believed they had to accept Thatcherism as irremovable. But the ideologues - personified by Tony Blair - genuinely believed in being right of centre ideologically. The pragmatists - personified by Gordon Brown - remained leftist in their hearts and simply believed they had to be New Labour to win. This shows in policy. Much of the progressive stuff in those years was driven by Gordon Brown as chancellor whilst most of the right wing crap was more down to Blair and those around him.

I do not actually hate the New Labour pragmatists. They are eminently persuadable by demonstrated facts on the ground, like the polling popularity of many of our 2017 policies. But the New Labour ideologues will always oppose such policies come what may for ideological reasons. Blair himself put it this way. He said that even if he thought a left wing manifesto was the route to power he wouldn't take it. Brown on the other hand would jump at the chance. I oppose the ideological Blairites because they oppose me and everything I stand for. And they do it from within my own party.

[Sheepy]

Well I hear on the grapevine they are onto you neoliberal types, using corporate money for backing, while forming charities and getting rich quick schemes, while all the time the gap between rich and poor gets larger and you all become more fascist in your boardroom thinking. Just saying.

[Thomas]

I think you will find it was the other way around. The Blairite faction constantly stabbing us in the back, briefings in the Tory press, plottings, joining demos against their own party. Some left to attack us from outside, others on their way out urged their constituents to vote conservative. We were the ones being stabbed in the back. Starmer is where he is today purely because he was one of the few wise enough not to participate and to work with the former leadership.

i agree with you fully. I have told you this in the past , although i couldnt stand corbyn , i repeat i thought it despicable the way the blairites did everything within their power from the day he stood for election to the day he went out of office over five years to stab corbyn in the back.

I repeat i fully agree.

However you told me , or insinuated that you were going to do the same with starmer? You as in the "progressive left" of the labour party remember?

The poster good old told you not to cause infighting in the party , as it would only let the tories in , and you responded you hated the blairites as much if not more than the tories?!

So am i not right in what i said that...

while you and your momentum buddies were trying and failing to stab starmer and the blairites in the back , and causing general mayhem in labour with your bitter hatred of the blairite faction

that this has been the case within labour since the general election last year and corbyn stepping down that labour has been consumed internally with bitter infighting and hatred?

You said it yourself amny a time  on here , you utterly despise the blairites in labour and see them as nothing more than tories.

[T00ts]

Others on the right frequently have and do. I was just pre-empting you.

LOL That's risky! 

[srb7677]

I did not reference any link to Momentum and have no idea if you are. In fact I am not aware of ever responding to one of your posts before. I find it odd that you protest so much.

Others on the right frequently have and do. I was just pre-empting you.