Time-wasting UK makes post-Brexit deal unlikely, says Barnier

[Borg Refinery]

You seem to be reading the exemption rules for agriculture and extrapolating that to apply to all regulations and trade.

There are presumably ways of explpiting that loophole so the exemption can be applied to other things, you're smart and I'm sure you recognise what I mean.

[Baff]

I'm hitting the nail on the head as far as I can see.

I'm reading directly from the Irish Protocol.

You seem to be reading the exemption rules for agriculture and extrapolating that to apply to all regulations and trade.
It does not.


Boris Johnson has been very clear that NI will have alignment with EU agricultural regulations. And that they will be set by the EU.
And that NI will have the opportunity to veto that alignment every 4 years.

Those who have an anti Boris agenda, such as "The Institute for Government" are attempting to spin this into him having lied and that NI is remaining in the EU/ having a border in the Irish Sea.
None of those statements are true.

It's just bog typical partisan spin doctoring of the kind we expect from political oppositions.
To whit. Lies. Propaganda. Half truths.



The EU provision over UK military was included in Mrs May's attemtps to make a WA.
it was removed by Boris Johnson.

There is no annexation of NI by the EU.
The border is not in Irish sea. It is still between N and S Ireland.

There most certainly is an element of EU law still applicable to NI proposed. NI will be the final arbitor of whether or not they agree to it.
To sell this as "being part of the EU single market", however, is to overplay that relationship significantly.
It is an exemption only for limited and specific area's of the economy. Namely agriculture.


I can understand that this might upset unionists, if it does they have a mechanism available to cancel it. It is ulitmately a democratic decision for NI to make.
The Johnson administration and the EU both agree it is a sensible one for NI. But neither of them will be arbitors of that decision.

[GerryT]

I agree with you that this is what "The Institute of Government" think should happen.

But what has that got to do with anything?
The Irish Protocol has been agreed (and linked for you) and "The Institute of Government" has no say in the matter at all.


The facts.
The link I have provided you is from the UK govt website. The same can be found on the EU's website.
The link you have provided me is not. It is from a remainer activist organisation's website, (sponsored by Lord Sainsbury).

Your deflecting. Straight from the agreement.

Article 5 section 3
Legislation as defined in point (2) of Article 5 of Regulation (EU) No 952/2013 shall apply to and
in the United Kingdom in respect of Northern Ireland

That regulation is the laws pertaining to the EU customs union -- ie will apply to NI.

Article 5 section 4
The provisions of Union law listed in Annex 2 to this Protocol shall also apply, under the
conditions set out in that Annex, to and in the United Kingdom in respect of Northern Ireland.

Have a look at Annex 2, it lists all the EU rules and regulations NI will have to comply with. From page 17 to 50, thats 34 pages of EU rules and regulations that NI will follow from Jan1 2021. GB won't. Hence the UK border.
This covers all trade related matters, not just a couple of agriculture movements from GB to NI. You may not agree so I advise you to take a look.

You were wrong in saying:
--No annexation of NI by the EU. We know there is a BG - NI border
--No authority over UK military for the EU. It was never suggested or in any document, well done Johnson for removing nothing.
And now your wrong in saying that the EU has nothing to do in NI, Annex 2 coves so much, for example the EU rules and regs will apply in NI in these areas:
Trade defence, goods, motor vehicles incl agri & forestry, Gas appliances, pressure vessels, instruments, Electrical & radio equipment, construction products/machinery/cableways/PPE,  cosmetics/toys, recreational craft, explosives & pyrotechnic, Medicinal products, Medical devices, Substance of human origin, Chemicals, Pesticides, Waste, Environment/Energy, Marine Eq, Rail Transport, Food-general, Food-hygiene, Food ingredients/traces/residues, Food-contact material, Food-other, Feed-products&hygiene, GMO's, Live animals & products of animal origin, Animal disease control, Animal id, Animal breeding, Animal Welfare, Plant health, plant reproductive material, Vet checks, Sanitary & phytosanitary, intellectual property, Fisheries,

Your told that Johnson will set the rules & regs in NI, what he's not telling you is all the above rules and regs for NI will be given to him by the EU and he's just passing them on to the people, a middle man.

[Baff]

I agree with you that this is what "The Institute of Government" think should happen.

But what has that got to do with anything?
The Irish Protocol has been agreed (and linked for you) and "The Institute of Government" has no say in the matter at all.


The facts.
The link I have provided you is from the UK govt website. The same can be found on the EU's website.
The link you have provided me is not. It is from a remainer activist organisation's website, (sponsored by Lord Sainsbury).

[GerryT]

To get a layman version and summary of the document this is a better reference:

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/brexit-deal-northern-ireland-protocol

A couple of snippet's from this:
Regulation
In order to avoid the need for regulatory checks in Ireland, Northern Ireland will have to stay in line with some Single Market rules for goods, including the level playing field.  As the rest of Britain could diverge, there will need to be some checks on goods moving from Great Britain to Northern Ireland, but both sides agree to look at ways of easing the compliance burden.  For goods like agri-food, these checks are likely to be significant – although some checks already take place.
Enforcement
The UK has agreed that the European Commission and the European Court of Justice will have jurisdiction to enforce EU rules in Northern Ireland. However, UK bodies will often be tasked with enforcement duties on the ground.  The European Commission will have wide-ranging rights to ask for information and intervene in the way UK enforcement bodies are acting.
Customs, movement of goods
The dual tariff regime has replaced the customs union in the original backstop.  This would introduce customs checks between GB and NI, whereas the previous deal included a customs union so there was no need for tariffs or rules of origin checks.  Northern Ireland will still be subject to most of the EU's customs rules as in the 2018 protocol.

Your opinion is not based on fact, the above is taken from a UK Gov site.  The simple fact is Johnson threw NI overboard, it's effectively remaining in the EU as it will continue to be under EU rules/regulations. Manufacturing in NI will follow EU rules, it has to. That will not be the case for GB. NI will also be in the UK customs union, so it's a great result for NI, they get the best of both worlds and great for them, about time they got an advantage.

[Baff]

The GFA refers to physical barriers.
Militarised check points.

And in line with that none have been built. Nor will be.

The EU may follow whatever rules it likes.
We are not in the EU.

I have no reason to explain to you why there is no border between the EU and the UK.
There is one.
And we will be using it.

Whether or not the EU "insists on it" is beside the point.
It exists.
They may choose to, or not to, enforce their side of it if they so wish.





Here is the NI protocol.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/840230/Revised_Protocol_to_the_Withdrawal_Agreement.pdf


There is no mention whatsoever in it that NI is part of the EU single market.
None.

It is absolutely clear in it that NI is part of the UK single market and customs union.


Free movement of people is indeed provided for in the protocol as are agricultural alignments.
All the techincal details you refer to are exclusive to those explicit agricultural alignments. Nothing more.
(Standards, state aid, rules of origin, checks etc).

The existing UK/ SI border will continue to operate.
On one side you will use the Euro and EU rules, on the other side you will use the Pound and UK rules.
As long as NI agree's.... Both sides will use some of the same agricultural standards, as defined by the EU but in NI's case, enforced by the UK.

NI will not be part of the EU single market.
It will however probably maintain a market alignment on agricultural produce destined for the EU.

[GerryT]

Only some agriculture is covered in the NI protocol.
No manufacturing.

No one cares if the EU "doesn't trust us".
They are welcome to check whatever they like. What they do in their own territory is their own concern.
If our producers wish to sell in the EU, it is up to them to meet EU standards. And up to the EU to enforce it's standards.

And equally if EU produce doesn't meet our standards, they won't be selling it here.
We will still be checking.

Maybe you weren't paying attention, the primary concern in the WA was the provision in the GFA to have no barriers to trade or movement of people moving from NI to ROI and visa versa. It's why any British person born in NI can have a Irish passport, that doesn't apply in GB.
This is why there will be a border in the Irish sea and not one between NI and ROI. The only way around that is with alignment on regulations and standards. If not the EU would insist on a border between the North and South. Taken from the UK site it shows where NI needs to align:
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/brexit-deal-northern-ireland-protocol

In particular, it will have to stick to the rules of the EU's Single Market, in areas such as technical regulation of goods, agricultural and environmental production and regulation, state aid and other areas of north–south co-operation

it goes on to say about when the EU changes its regulations:
Northern Ireland would need to automatically adopt any changes to these regulations made by the EU.


Your correct to say that NI is in the UK customs union but at the same time it will be in the EU single market, and will follow EU rules and regulation.

If you still disagree, then can you explain how there will be no border between the EU and UK (NI and Southern ireland) when you know what the EU is like in following rules. How can two separate markets have no border ?
I've explained, whats your explanation.

[Baff]

Only some agriculture is covered in the NI protocol.
No manufacturing.

No one cares if the EU "doesn't trust us".
They are welcome to check whatever they like. What they do in their own territory is their own concern.
If our producers wish to sell in the EU, it is up to them to meet EU standards. And up to the EU to enforce it's standards.

And equally if EU produce doesn't meet our standards, they won't be selling it here.
We will still be checking.

[GerryT]

Yes, the UK has agreed to do the checks.

Checks which the EU has no oversight of.
But just has to take our word for it that we are doing it.

We probably even get to keep their taxes. And they ours perhaps?


NI is to keep some agricultural standards aligned with the EU, unless NI assembly vetoes this.
So they may be able to sell their food into EU's high price markets. I expect they will till face tariffs however when they do.

It's not just checks, its keeping all NI manufacturing (not just agriculture) aligned with EU standards, because there is no border/checks on the island of Ireland NI production has to be fully aligned. It's not a trust system, that's not how the EU works. Like I said Johnson sold the UK a pup and NI down the toilet (if your a unionist).
This also stretches to level playing field, that's state aid, workers rights, employment protection, taxation etc...

[Thomas]

All the UK has done is waste time since 2016 tbh.

aye and you remainers wasted most of it....

[Baff]

Yes, the UK has agreed to do the checks.

Checks which the EU has no oversight of.
But just has to take our word for it that we are doing it.

We probably even get to keep their taxes. And they ours perhaps?


NI is to keep some agricultural standards aligned with the EU, unless NI assembly vetoes this.
So they may be able to sell their food into EU's high price markets. I expect they will till face tariffs however when they do.

[GerryT]

NI doesn't remain aligned with the EU customs union.
Sorry EU.

Your right not the SM but NI will stay somewhat aligned with the EU customs union. There will be checks between NI and GB and these will be in the "Irish Sea", there will be zero checks between NI and the republic of Ireland.

NI will have to comply with some EU customs union rules, this Will include the "level playing field" rules. If GB makes any divergence from today's standards (EU standards) then checks from GB to NI will be put in place by the UK. That's the agreement that Johnson signed. It's an international agreement, not a promise.

Your points were no annexation of NI by the EU and some nonsense about EU army's. Both points were wrong. So what else did Johnson do with May's withdrawal agreement. He sold parliament and the people of the UK a pup.

[Baff]

NI doesn't remain aligned with the EU customs union.

It remains aligned with the UK customs union.
Tariffs for goods crossing the Irish border will be applicable.

There are no tariffs due for goods destined to NI from GB, or for goods destined for GB from NI.
The UK is a single market and customs union.

[GerryT]

Some pretty massive changes in WA from Boris.
No annexation of NI by the EU.
No authority over UK military for the EU.

That's not how I remember it. Yes the NI "back-stop" was removed, this kept NI aligned with the EU customs union only if an alternative arrangement (which the UK said was easy peasey) couldn't be found. This would effectively keep the whole of the UK in the EU CU, as T.May wouldn't allow a border within the UK.

This was replaced with what we called the Johnson "front-stop", so from day one there would be no alternative arrangement and NI would remain aligned with the EU customs union, but not the rest of the UK. This arrangement could be changed if the people of NI want to do that, but only the people of NI can make that decision every 4 or 8 years by vote of the elected assembly. The only way this can work is with a border down the middle of the UK in the Irish Sea. Johnson has done exactly what you say he removed, he annexed NI from the UK. Goods can travel from NI to GB unhindered but goods travelling from ROI to GB travelling through NI will go through tariffs at UK ports. There are no stops/checks/tariffs from ROI to NI as NI is staying aligned with the EU. This gives NI an envious position of being in the EU SM and UK SM at the same time, hopefully it brings them much needed investment from abroad.

There was nothing in T Mays WA regarding EU authority over UK military, have no idea what that's about.

The other change Johnson did was to remove workers rights protection saying that the UK will maintain the same or better workers rights post brexit. Me thinks he's lying again.

The level playing field clause was removed, but it doesn't much matter as the EU won't do a trade deal without this anyway, so a mute point.

You could say Johnson's changes made the WA worse for the UK. I'll concede Johnson is good at spin.

[Baff]

Some pretty massive changes in WA from Boris.
No annexation of NI by the EU.
No authority over UK military for the EU.

Basically the really outrageous stuff that remainers signed us up for in the hope of frightening us into not leaving at all

And yes, the rest of the WA was shit too.

But the really stark raving bonkers stuff, like a border in the Irish Sea and UK entry into a Euro Army, Boris got rid of.
There were a couple of other signifcant changes too. Game changers that meant it could now pass through parliament.
Not that he was in charge of much until he won a majority.

But he got there.
With all those forces bent to prevent him, he got there.
Job done.