yoo-kay: Worst Recession, Death Toll in Europe, Dev'd Nations,

[Borchester]

We already know the UK will be better off outside the EU.

Really?  I have yet to seen any credible evidence for that.

You would not understand it anyway. Just take Baff's word for it.

[papasmurf]

We already know the UK will be better off outside the EU.

Really?  I have yet to seen any credible evidence for that.

[Baff]

We already know the UK will be better off outside the EU.
6 months after we have left and history has already shown us that.

I didn't think we would be able to clearly tell.
How wrong I was.

We just dodged bailing out the EU for Covid.

A bill estimated to be 2,500 times as much as the EU's provisions from Brexit bailouts.
Our share of that alone, has just made leaving the EU the single smartest economic decision in the history of the world.

[Sheepy]

...

Some references Borkie -

https://resourcegovernance.org/blog/did-uk-miss-out-%C2%A3400-billion-worth-oil-revenue

"Norway has taken a different approach, with over 50 percent of production coming through Statoil (of which the state owns a majority) and state ownership of assets via the State Direct Financial Interest (SDFI), held through Petoro (wholly owned by the state). Norway generated more than double the revenue the U.K. did from each barrel it produced."

(I got my timeline wrong, Thatcher's Beuges speech was in '88 - https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/0b0afe92-ac40-11e8-8253-48106866cd8a - looks like the EU started to become more equality focused and it incensed her
....)

You remind of one of those Neo Liberals, we will jolly well listen now, but only if its what we want to hear.

[Borg Refinery]

...

Some references Borkie -

https://resourcegovernance.org/blog/did-uk-miss-out-%C2%A3400-billion-worth-oil-revenue

"Norway has taken a different approach, with over 50 percent of production coming through Statoil (of which the state owns a majority) and state ownership of assets via the State Direct Financial Interest (SDFI), held through Petoro (wholly owned by the state). Norway generated more than double the revenue the U.K. did from each barrel it produced."

(I got my timeline wrong, Thatcher's Beuges speech was in '88 - https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/0b0afe92-ac40-11e8-8253-48106866cd8a - looks like the EU started to become more equality focused and it incensed her
....)

[Borg Refinery]

The UK's ailments began years ago when it spent most of its Marshall Aid on military and memories of Empire, failed to take full advantage of EC and EU membership, relinquished most of its viable industry to foreign ownership, closed most of the rest, and decided to concentrate on finance and service industries.
Had the UK been more like Norway it would have use its oil and gas finds to set up a sovereign fund to invest in R&D, industry, and infrastructure — instead it sold off "the family jewels". It might even have been better if an independent Scotland had been in charge of its own resources and was paying its own way in the world.
Now the UK has the excuses of Brexit, Covid, Global Recession and the civil service to blame for its current and coming failures. Let's hope innovators and opinion leaders are able to convince government and investors of the opportunities of the digital and green future offer...

Dunno about that.

India was effectively the British Empire and it became independent in 1947,

Dunno about that..

a year before the introduction of the Marshall Plan. The UK spend the next decade or so winding down the Empire and military.

..Would you rather have held on to the empire?

Norway has a long history of arseless poverty and a population a twelfth that of the UK. So when the oil started to flow they could not spend it all and squirrelled it away for a rainy day. Britain spent its oil money on the Welfare State which was to the betterment of the population in general and the zillions of West Indians in particular who found working for the NHS a better deal than they were getting at home.

But surely you agree they have a great welfare state as well as a huge sovereign wealth fund.

The post war boom lasted the better part of thirty years so we must have been doing something right. When things got tough we decided to join the EU, which was not a clever idea because British unemployment rose steadily for the next twelve years.

But surely it doesn't necessarily follow that that was because of the EU.

Don't you think, for example, we could have better explpited our resources in the N Sea - also I read the botched  negotiations where we ceded larger amounts of N sea gas and oil to others played a part too - I'll try to find those refs later - And other botched negotiations with EEC member states?

But I like what the EU has become as of recently; from what I read of the EU back then I would have been a Brexiteer - they described us as the sick man of europe and prescribed asset-stripping neoliberal policies; which Thatcher supported as she was a big fan of them until about 1988 if memory serves..

And then the EU got the idea that it needed more Lebensraum and expanded to adsorb as many penniless East Europeans as it could.

There's no convincing proof I've seen that that lowered wages btw.

I don't know that the UK will be economically better off outside the EU,but history suggests that we won't be much worse.

The honesty is appreciated. 👍

Some fella on a different forum gave me an almost convincing reason for Brexit - "to take away an excuse for politicians; because they blame things on the EU as it means they can absolve themselves of responsibility". A line Baff also pushes... but they will just find another scapegoat surely?

[papasmurf]

I don't know that the UK will be economically better off outside the EU,but history suggests that we won't be much worse.

It will be lot worse there is Britain makes little to export and what is left will probably go soon after a hard Brexit.

[Borchester]

The UK's ailments began years ago when it spent most of its Marshall Aid on military and memories of Empire, failed to take full advantage of EC and EU membership, relinquished most of its viable industry to foreign ownership, closed most of the rest, and decided to concentrate on finance and service industries.
Had the UK been more like Norway it would have use its oil and gas finds to set up a sovereign fund to invest in R&D, industry, and infrastructure — instead it sold off "the family jewels". It might even have been better if an independent Scotland had been in charge of its own resources and was paying its own way in the world.
Now the UK has the excuses of Brexit, Covid, Global Recession and the civil service to blame for its current and coming failures. Let's hope innovators and opinion leaders are able to convince government and investors of the opportunities of the digital and green future offer...

Dunno about that.

India was effectively the British Empire and it became independent in 1947, a year before the introduction of the Marshall Plan. The UK spend the next decade or so winding down the Empire and military.

Norway has a long history of arseless poverty and a population a twelfth that of the UK. So when the oil started to flow they could not spend it all and squirrelled it away for a rainy day. Britain spent its oil money on the Welfare State which was to the betterment of the population in general and the zillions of West Indians in particular who found working for the NHS a better deal than they were getting at home.

The post war boom lasted the better part of thirty years so we must have been doing something right. When things got tough we decided to join the EU, which was not a clever idea because British unemployment rose steadily for the next twelve years. And then the EU got the idea that it needed more Lebensraum and expanded to adsorb as many penniless East Europeans as it could.

I don't know that the UK will be economically better off outside the EU,but history suggests that we won't be much worse.

[papasmurf]

Let's hope innovators and opinion leaders are able to convince government and investors of the opportunities of the digital and green future offer...

I expect I will see Elvis piloting a flying pig before that happens.
I am increasing left with no choice but buy things I need from foreign countries.

All to often from Wung Hung Lo's universal widget making factory deep in China.

[patman post]

The UK's ailments began years ago when it spent most of its Marshall Aid on military and memories of Empire, failed to take full advantage of EC and EU membership, relinquished most of its viable industry to foreign ownership, closed most of the rest, and decided to concentrate on finance and service industries.
Had the UK been more like Norway it would have use its oil and gas finds to set up a sovereign fund to invest in R&D, industry, and infrastructure — instead it sold off "the family jewels". It might even have been better if an independent Scotland had been in charge of its own resources and was paying its own way in the world.
Now the UK has the excuses of Brexit, Covid, Global Recession and the civil service to blame for its current and coming failures. Let's hope innovators and opinion leaders are able to convince government and investors of the opportunities of the digital and green future offer...

[Sheepy]

No contributor as large as the UK has left the EU. Stop making it up to suit Westminster politics and no starmer won't be getting the votes back.

[Borg Refinery]

Indeed papa, the potassium ferric excreta have plumbed the depths...

It's true that Brexit would've been alright had anyone but the Tories done it but...

I mean other countries left the EU with no big issue, why couldn't we? The Tories are incompetent. And that's it.

It really is as simple as that despite whatever the bleaty sheeple types are saying.

[Sheepy]

No you won't because you can't like smurfy you are all full of it, get off your EU knees it is embarrassing. Anyway you ignored my question why are the Germans being banned from marching against creeping Neo Liberal Fascism.

I only voted remain because I knew the Tories would make a complete bog of leave, and drop the country in a depth of poo that it will be next to impossible to get out of, if ever.

You told us it was because you had a leaky old mobile home in France, so best make up your mind , which is it? Now you have worked out we told you all along the only person stopping you using it was yourself.

[papasmurf]

No you won't because you can't like smurfy you are all full of it, get off your EU knees it is embarrassing. Anyway you ignored my question why are the Germans being banned from marching against creeping Neo Liberal Fascism.

I only voted remain because I knew the Tories would make a complete bog of leave, and drop the country in a depth of poo that it will be next to impossible to get out of, if ever.

[Sheepy]

Ooh kay, I'll make a note to neatly skip over every post of yours in future then. If you just want to bleat and not be replied to, I'll keep well away, suits you sir.

No you won't because you can't like smurfy you are all full of it, get off your EU knees it is embarrassing. Anyway you ignored my question why are the Germans being banned from marching against creeping Neo Liberal Fascism.