Have I lost the plot?

[papasmurf]

Don't forget the fish processing industry is bigger than the fish catching industry.

The problem being a lot of fish processing is carried out at sea on the larger fishing boats and factory ships.

[BeElBeeBub]

Your right beelbub , there is little difference at the moment between what flag a ship sails and fishes under in British waters . Its one of the reasons that the fishing communities were in the main pro leave .
Fishing is a subject that gets the blood pressure rising even for a land lubber like myself who gets a glimpse of the English Channel from the pub window on the annual outing to the Dorset fish fare .

Which is sort of my point. Fishing has an outsized *emotional* resonance (the image of a proud weatherbeaten fisherman setting out in his little boat from a.small Cornish fishing village like his father and grandfather before him plays well in the heart strings but isn't really that close to reality). In fairness, this affliction is not just British. All the coastal EU countries have the same issue, hence fisheries having an impact on trade negotiations w
ay above their economic importance.

And the lack of difference between the boats if variousnfoags, and nationalities is related to when it comes to *sell* the catch (a vital part of the fishing process)

The ability to catch the fish in the first place is related to the quotas.  Those quotas were originally all given to British fishermen. Over time some have chosen to sell their quotas to others, including foreign captains.  This was explicitly allowed (encouraged even) by the UK government. Other EU nations had conditions on the sake of quotas. The UK chose not to and the captains chose to sell.

I dont therefore pretend to know the ins and outs of the fishing industry but what I do know is that we should support what our fishermen want as they and our coastal ports seem to have had the roughest of deals from our EU membership .

Yet despite having "one of the roughest deals" the UK fishing fleet is one of the largest in the EU (by displacement) and has one of the largest catches.

Fishing was always going to decline over the 2nd ½ of the C20th.  Overfishing meant we either had to reduce our fleets or see them vanish completely.  Increasing automation means fewer fishermen can catch more fish.  The two together mean fishing employment was *always* going to fall.

Norway, who have had control over their fisheries and for who fishing is an equally (if not more) emotive topic, have seen a decline in fishermen over the same time period.

They (the fishermen) do know their industry though and are not like many of us land lubbers ( sink the French bastards ) and are happy to see compromises that just reinstate what they see as a fair deal . Something like  legislation that sees 60% of UK boats actually  British owned  and crewed  along with 60% of fish landed sold and processed in the UK  .

to do so would require a buy back of quotas from the current non-british holders. Entirely feasible and entirely in the UK government's court.

The bigger problem is that catching fish is no good if you can't sell them.

The fish we can catch in the UK are not to UK tastes.  We export a large chunk of our catch.

That will now be more difficult.

As I say all we can do is support them and hope the government doesnt let them down in their one chance to put right the awful deals of the past commonly known as the Common fisheries policy

Yes, we can support them, but they have already been let down.  They have served their usefulness in delivering the brexit vote so are no longer of concern to the government. Remember, Nigel Farage was on the EU fisheries committee, where he could have made a real difference for the fishermen he claims to care about, but he went to 1 out of 42 meetings.

Ironically, a deal on fishing (which would almost certainly require the UK to agree to the EU quota negotiation system) in exchange for continued access to their biggest export market would be in the fishing industry's best interests.

Don't forget the fish processing industry is bigger than the fish catching industry.

[papasmurf]

British can't be blamed for not buying shellfish if it's not available.

There is just not the demand.  If it doesn't come pre-prepared and packaged next to no-one wants it.

(A few years ago my wife and I ordered mussels in a local pub, they came out with a knife and fork. Now a knife an fork to eat mussels in the shell was so farcical I nearly feel off of my chair.)

[patman post]

They can but UK consumers don't buy much shellfish, so the catch can be landed in the UK and it won't all sell.

British can't be blamed for not buying shellfish if it's not available. Even I in my thirties can remember whelk stalls, cockles and mussels sold outside pubs and at greyhound tracks. These days most fish is sold through supermarkets, which offer limited choice of (often farmed) fish. There are few dedicated seafood outlets (apart from the chippie which is now usually selling more fried chicken, pies, and Chinese dishes). Oysters seem to retail at between 80p and £1 each — in France they're often less than £5 a dozen.
We've got three fishmongers in walking distance. One sells mostly sea bass an sea bream with a whole ranch of frozen packs. Another's kosher so doesn't offer shellfish, and the third charges like a wounded bull, though it has a wide selection of fresh seafood.
Seems strange that the UK is surrounded by sea, but offers its population such a limited selection of seafood at such high prices...

[Streetwalker]

If they can't work out a deal on those terms then its no deal and if we had any bollocks no permits .

No permits no market in Europe for UK fresh fish and live shellfish. That will devastate where I live and cause severe hardship.

Theres no reason that Europe can't buy our produce from Newlyn dock . They just can't take it out of the water 4 miles off  Lizard point . The local economy will at worst remain unchanged and at best become  the thriving industry it once was , and some .

There are lots of reasons why that will be less likely to happen.

Right now there is very little difference between a fish caught by a French vessel or a British vessel and very little difference between a fish landed in the UK and one in France.

Come January the UK vessels will face restrictions landing in EU ports and fish landed in the UK will face tariffs and paperwork restrictions if they are exported to Europe.

For example, frozen mackerel faxes a 20% tariff. Fresh mackerel doesn't (0%) but is obviously much more susceptible to transport delays, which will be a problem if the mackerel has to be landed in UK, then transported to Europe by road/ferry/road with holdups at ports to complete paperwork (mackerel keeps 4-5 days unless frozen)

Your right beelbub , there is little difference at the moment between what flag a ship sails and fishes under in British waters . Its one of the reasons that the fishing communities were in the main pro leave .
Fishing is a subject that gets the blood pressure rising even for a land lubber like myself who gets a glimpse of the English Channel from the pub window on the annual outing to the Dorset fish fare .

I dont therefore pretend to know the ins and outs of the fishing industry but what I do know is that we should support what our fishermen want as they and our coastal ports seem to have had the roughest of deals from our EU membership .

They (the fishermen) do know their industry though and are not like many of us land lubbers ( sink the French bastards ) and are happy to see compromises that just reinstate what they see as a fair deal . Something like  legislation that sees 60% of UK boats actually  British owned  and crewed  along with 60% of fish landed sold and processed in the UK  .

As I say all we can do is support them and hope the government doesnt let them down in their one chance to put right the awful deals of the past commonly known as the Common fisheries policy

[Forum admin]

Moderation Notice

Several personal comments removed. Please discuss the topic and stop making it about a forum member.
A warning was given on Sunday, infractions WILL follow this time.

[BeElBeeBub]

If they can't work out a deal on those terms then its no deal and if we had any bollocks no permits .

No permits no market in Europe for UK fresh fish and live shellfish. That will devastate where I live and cause severe hardship.

Theres no reason that Europe can't buy our produce from Newlyn dock . They just can't take it out of the water 4 miles off  Lizard point . The local economy will at worst remain unchanged and at best become  the thriving industry it once was , and some .

There are lots of reasons why that will be less likely to happen.

Right now there is very little difference between a fish caught by a French vessel or a British vessel and very little difference between a fish landed in the UK and one in France.

Come January the UK vessels will face restrictions landing in EU ports and fish landed in the UK will face tariffs and paperwork restrictions if they are exported to Europe.

For example, frozen mackerel faxes a 20% tariff. Fresh mackerel doesn't (0%) but is obviously much more susceptible to transport delays, which will be a problem if the mackerel has to be landed in UK, then transported to Europe by road/ferry/road with holdups at ports to complete paperwork (mackerel keeps 4-5 days unless frozen)

[Borg Refinery]

The bedbug craps are really trying to push the fishing argument even though they want to sacrifice it completely - Bojo has hinted as much. Yes the Tories in govt are pushing that argument that they want to 'save' fishing but simultaneously lying to your face.

It is true - it is worth too small a % of GDP to be worth saving according to them.

Beetlejuice is correct, and this backs up his points;

Here's the Brexiteers' dishonesty. Each country is free to share out its national quota as it chooses – but free-market Britain, unlike others, let fishers sell their quotas abroad. The Dutch ship Cornelis Vrolijk, registered in Caterham, owns 23% of the entire UK quota. "Slipper skippers" sold their quotas abroad – it was easier to put their feet up than to fish. Could Gove seize it back post-Brexit? No more than Jeremy Corbyn could seize back rail or energy companies from foreign owners without hefty compensation. It's not prevented by the EU, but by basic property law.



As hard Brexiteers want no deal, fishing is their perfect pretext – though no deal would be the fishermen's apocalypse

Gove could redistribute quotas between our own big ships and small boats. In Britain, 77% of the boats are less than 10 metres long, employing most of the UK's 12,000 fishers, yet owning just 4% of local quota. A key article in the CFP says quotas should be allocated transparently and objectively, and include "social, economic and environmental criteria". Small boats matter most for coastal life and do least environmental harm, so should take priority. Talk to Joy long enough about all the complexities of different fish quotas and treaties, and his most pressing need is for the British government to take from the big boats and give to the under-10m flotilla

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/23/propaganda-brexit-fish-eu-britain-fishing-rights

[GerryT]

Not the entire fishing industry but the inshore "day boats," will be finished with no market for their premium product fresh fish and live shellfish.
The bulk of which goes to France and Spain with local British market of around 5% of their catch.
Once the day boats go bust, which will be with days not months, there will be no going back.

Surely they can sell their catch in the UK — or are they expecting local buyers to match French prices..?

They can but UK consumers don't buy much shellfish, so the catch can be landed in the UK and it won't all sell.

[patman post]

Not the entire fishing industry but the inshore "day boats," will be finished with no market for their premium product fresh fish and live shellfish.
The bulk of which goes to France and Spain with local British market of around 5% of their catch.
Once the day boats go bust, which will be with days not months, there will be no going back.

Surely they can sell their catch in the UK — or are they expecting local buyers to match French prices..?

[Borg Refinery]

Aw come on guys I was asking a genuine question don't let it descend into another playground squabble. If you can't get on, ignore one another!

I don't see why our fishing industry should be written off forever. Why can't we expect them to recover, get an entrepreneurial spirit once the French etc clear out and stop stripping the fish? I have heard enough complaints from fishermen bewailing their hard luck stories in the past. Now is their chance to show the rest of us what they are really made of. The same goes for every other business.

The answer is very simple.

https://metro.co.uk/2020/03/01/top-government-aide-said-britain-doesnt-need-farmers-fishermen-12327758/amp/

Because the govt plans to abandon them to their fate.

[BeElBeeBub]

Aw come on guys I was asking a genuine question don't let it descend into another playground squabble. If you can't get on, ignore one another!

I don't see why our fishing industry should be written off forever. Why can't we expect them to recover, get an entrepreneurial spirit once the French etc clear out and stop stripping the fish? I have heard enough complaints from fishermen bewailing their hard luck stories in the past. Now is their chance to show the rest of us what they are really made of. The same goes for every other business.

In the spirt of genuine questioning.

The French (via the EU) are entitled to propose whatever they want. Just as we can propose whatever we like.

Neither side has to agree to the other side's proposal.  If neither side budges then there will be no agreement. Hopefully there will be movement from both side so we can come to agreement.

However, I suspect you will be disappointed with the outcome.

Firstly, the right to fish UK waters is tied to the famous quotas.  Basically licences to take X amount of a certain fish.  The overall quota for a country (eg France or UK) is set out by international agreements beyond the EU, the divvying up.of that quota amongst a given county's fishermen's is a matter for each country.  The UK decided that it was permissable for UK fishermen to sell their quotas, which they did - to Dutch, French and Spanish fishermen.  Those fishermen own the licences in the same way they might own a shop in London or restaurant in Leeds.  The UK can't just "repossess" those quotas.

So it is unlikely UK fishermen will get possession of those quotas in the first place (unless the government buys them off the EU fishermen and gives them back to UK fishermen, presumably with some sort of ban on selling them again)

Secondly, a large  of the UK fishing industry isn't catching fish for the UK market. It's either catching fish for the EU market (herring is a big part of the UK catch and almost all is exported) or it's processing seafood caught elsewhere into products to be exported to the EU.

Both of those parts of the fishing industry will be heavily impacted by no deal, and badly impacted by a tariff only deal.

Unfortunately the fishing industry has been sold a pup.

[Sheepy]

All psychology toots, if we give in the likes of Smurf and the EU will say what was the point of leaving.

[GerryT]

The question that needs to be asked is where are the fish consumed. For example if 80% of the fish is sold in the EU because it's not what British consumers typically consume (shellfish etc) then it's in the interest of the UK to keep that line of sale open. That may mean compromise, allow the EU a quota and over time transfer more quota to the UK fishermen if that can be negotiated. If its mainly consumed in the UK then you can do what you want, its UK fishing waters. The only other consideration would be existing deals that may precede the EEC/EU and may be still in force post 2020, getting out of those may not be so easy.

[papasmurf]

I don't see why our fishing industry should be written off forever.

Not the entire fishing industry but the inshore "day boats," will be finished with no market for their premium product fresh fish and live shellfish.
The bulk of which goes to France and Spain with local British market of around 5% of their catch.
Once the day boats go bust, which will be with days not months, there will be no going back.