FT: Bojo to override WA

[Baff]

Ireland is not part of the EU in regards to trade.
Only Southern Ireland is.

Under the WA NI does remain in the UK single market, but it also remains in the EU single market, this is the only way to stop a border in NI and it is the only reason the EU signed the WA. Johnson declared the WA a great success, he signed the UK up to this. Lying now is expected from Johnson, and he's true to form.
The only way you can ensure goods coming into NI are complying with the particular NI situation is to check as it enters NI, so either at a NI port or UK port. Goods going from NI to the UK would move without checks.

The WA my Prime Minister signed does not put a trade border in the Irish Sea, the continued claims that he has done so has resulted in a clarification of this in a new bill.
One that has set your pants on fire, it seems.

No the new bill is set to undermine the agreement Johnson signed, the WA. Because he signed up for that and now wants to back out he thinks he can write a new law to break international law. It's just sad to see one man drag a countries reputation down.

If you do not approve of this, the correct course of action is perhaps to petition your MEP for the EU to annul the WA.

NO the correct course of action is for the EU to do two things.
First tell the UK it is acting as a untrustworthy 3rd country and if they continue to carry on this course then the EU parliament won't sign off on any trade deal agreed. SO talks will continue and then the deal (if agreed) gets parked until the WA issue is resolved.
Secondly tell the UK to change the bill by the end of the month or the EU will under the WA provisions start a grievance proceeding. This can finally result in getting a financial fine which can be very hefty.
The EU has now done both so all's good in my book.

The way things are going I don't see Johnson lasting very long.

In the WA please quote me the part where it says NI remains in the EU single market.

I appreciate this is a bit of an arsey question to ask you.
I haven't read all the WA. But the parts I have read made no mention of this.
Only the UK single market.

Which article mentions NI remaining in the EU single market please?

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/840655/Agreement_on_the_withdrawal_of_the_United_Kingdom_of_Great_Britain_and_Northern_Ireland_from_the_European_Union_and_the_European_Atomic_Energy_Community.pdf

Sorry to be so lazy, but it's a big document and I haven't found that part.



The UK already believes that the EU will not sign off on any trade deal.
So making that threat earns the EU no extra leverage in negotiations.
In fact this bill serves as a timely reminder to the EU that a trade deal is one way to resolve their issue.
And I repeat, this is not an issue for the UK at all. We really have no national interest in protecting the EU single market at all.

I do agree that the UK has offered to check goods headed for S Ireland at NI ports. And that this is an effective way to help protect the EU single market as it helps remove the need for S Ireland to make customs checks on the border.
The UK has offered to make a reasonable conscession to help the EU in this regard.
We have acted in good faith.

The threats to ban UK goods from being sold in NI however, is not an act of good faith at all and that in itself is a breach of WA agreement.
The breach of the WA agreement that has precipitated this new bill.
The EU has "broken international law" and the UK is responding accordingly.

[GerryT]

he uk hasnt left the eu , it is still in transition. You can repeat it over and over till your green in the face  me bhoy , but you wont convince anyone on this forum never mind uk wide.

16 weeks to go gerry.

On top of that , no northern ireland isnt a big issue for the average uk voter.

told you this many a time before.

The vast majority couldnt goive a feck about northern ireland , and would happily jettison the place , never mind let it keep england i nthe customs union. you are overplaying your extremely weak hand.

I hope northern ireland does hold the english to ransom over the eu , but i extremely doubt it.

Thats why i wouldnt get your knickers in a twist over it gerry , cause quite simply no can't gives a feck.

I do get your point about transition but there's no denying the UK has all ready left. I'll give an example, the WA allowed for a transition, the UK is now looking like it's breaking the WA. The EU could very easily and rightly cancel the WA once that bill is passed, possibly next week then it would be 1 week to go.

The mindset in IRL and around the EU is the UK has left, whether there's a trade deal or no trade deal gets as much attention and news as does the current EU trade discussions with Vietnam or Australia. Which is very little attention.

Don't underestimate the NI importance, if there's a hint that a border is needed in NI/ROI then the EU shutters will go up.

[GerryT]

Ireland is not part of the EU in regards to trade.
Only Southern Ireland is.

Under the WA NI does remain in the UK single market, but it also remains in the EU single market, this is the only way to stop a border in NI and it is the only reason the EU signed the WA. Johnson declared the WA a great success, he signed the UK up to this. Lying now is expected from Johnson, and he's true to form.
The only way you can ensure goods coming into NI are complying with the particular NI situation is to check as it enters NI, so either at a NI port or UK port. Goods going from NI to the UK would move without checks.

The WA my Prime Minister signed does not put a trade border in the Irish Sea, the continued claims that he has done so has resulted in a clarification of this in a new bill.
One that has set your pants on fire, it seems.

No the new bill is set to undermine the agreement Johnson signed, the WA. Because he signed up for that and now wants to back out he thinks he can write a new law to break international law. It's just sad to see one man drag a countries reputation down.

If you do not approve of this, the correct course of action is perhaps to petition your MEP for the EU to annul the WA.

NO the correct course of action is for the EU to do two things.
First tell the UK it is acting as a untrustworthy 3rd country and if they continue to carry on this course then the EU parliament won't sign off on any trade deal agreed. SO talks will continue and then the deal (if agreed) gets parked until the WA issue is resolved.
Secondly tell the UK to change the bill by the end of the month or the EU will under the WA provisions start a grievance proceeding. This can finally result in getting a financial fine which can be very hefty.
The EU has now done both so all's good in my book.

The way things are going I don't see Johnson lasting very long.

[Baff]

Bad laws should always be blatently disrespected.
Only in this way will they get changed.

In this specific example, I don't accept the premise that the UK has done so.
Although I would be very comfortable with it if that turns out to be the case.

[Good old]

The Chagos,  dispute was not ruled on until 2015. And is still in dispute. We have had Tories running the show since 2010. Plenty of time to put that right. Are you  still insisting that two wrongs make a right.?
The worlds perception of us is what it is , we don't need Boris, to reinforce any negative perception anyone might have due to history.  Just another of your diversions from discussing whether Boris is in any way justified to  override WA .
Past history of illegal actions plays no part . It could never justify more illegal activity . This is not just about our integrity it's a simple case of right or wrong. And if the law is broken it's wrong. So laugh , If you would prefer to see the law broken in such difficult times .

right but you said here and now when talking about the uks apparent mythical world renown over how superb its integrity and word of honour is , and so i gave you an example so stop wriggling.

Before the tories were elected , the uks infamous integrity was being laughed at over such issues as the iraq war . I mean pick a feckin decade and have a laugh at the nonsense you talk.

Kenya? Northern ireland?

The list is endless.

Boris johnson is just the latest in a long line of leaders acting as all brit pms have done over history , so stop talking nonsense or singling out a tory because it suits your rhetoric.

On top of that , stop squealing about brexit.

Its happening  so deal with it.

You sayt you are worried about how the world perceives you , but are more than happy to deceive and over turn a democratic vote by your own people to leave the eu?

What are you gibbering about laws being broken for?

Thje uk has broken the law many a time before. Whats different about now  ?

"leave the eu with honour!?

I havent heard such laughable shite on this forum in a long time. Feck honour.

Your such a man of the world Thomas,.  I have lived through a good deal of the events you rattle on about. And more. You talk as if your perception of those events holds some special significance.  There is no Empire to defend .this is not an insurrection to put down,.
Its a frigging trading deal , that we can only ask for. After rejecting close co-operation with the body we now seek a deal with.  The conduct of a British government , in  such negotiations may mean nothing to you . I heartily disagree .
In particular if they should blatantly ignore accepted international law .
I keep telling you two wrongs will never make a right. Boris, has no excuse if he wants to be a law breaker.
On top of that I can not wait to get out . No squealing from me, all in your overactive imagination.. I'm afraid.Thomas,.
I was more than happy that referendum did not become the way to rule this country. I was happy that those that tried to promote the very notion it could do so . There is no deal for me, and there is no going back. So something very important in your ramblings you got wrong.
So I say to you and Boris, stop frigging about reinforcing the idea  that Hastings ,description of you is 100% accurate and get the hell out without improving on the fact that offering  the electorate an oven ready deal was a lie. And if you are going to lie don't make it blatant. Thomas, you only prove to me you are someone who will accept a law breaker and a lie,  if it imposes what you want.  Now do another of your long winded replies . For me to ignore.

[Barry]

I was going to reply but Good Old did a nice job explaining the issue.
Maybe Gina Miller cn explain how the UK thinks it can ignore international law.

Maybe she cn.

The UK has published its own legal position on the Internal Market Bill, resting in part on Gina Miller's famous activist court case which asserted the sovereignty of Parliament.

[Borg Refinery]

We have different philosophies I guess.

Ok, so maybe I am a bit naive, idealistic and 'sound immature' here.

I still don't think I am wrong. I don't expect any of the reforms I have suggested to happen, but that doesn't mean they aren't the right thing.

Only idealism and aiming for a much higher standard improves anything by any way at all, you know history, you know what I mean.

But fair enoygh if you disagree.

my philosophy is called realism dynamis.

Idealism and fantasy was knocked out of me many years ago.

The world is a brutal place , and the naive have no place in it.

You are a fan, like me, of Connolly aren't you?

Do you not think he was a romanticist - a dreamer, an idealist who dreamed of a better way both for the Scots and the Irish? Don't you think that's the ONLY way in an insane world?

You can't be a realist in an unrealistic world - you can't do things sanely in an insane world. I'm 100% certain you agree on those last points at least, c'mon.. you know it's the truth.   

[Thomas]

We have different philosophies I guess.

Ok, so maybe I am a bit naive, idealistic and 'sound immature' here.

I still don't think I am wrong. I don't expect any of the reforms I have suggested to happen, but that doesn't mean they aren't the right thing.

Only idealism and aiming for a much higher standard improves anything by any way at all, you know history, you know what I mean.

But fair enoygh if you disagree.

my philosophy is called realism dynamis.

Idealism and fantasy was knocked out of me many years ago.

The world is a brutal place , and the naive have no place in it.

[Borg Refinery]

Not at all. I think referendums are useful, but IMHO just as the Scot indyref was a big cheat and stitch-up as you said yourself, so was AV and Brexit.

Every referrendum and political vote is the same. Are you suggesting if there is another scottish indyref it wont be the same?

Seriously?

Your problem is you want politics to be pure ,and that is never going to happen dyno.

Im not annoyed we got stitched up in 2014 , im just annoyed the brit s were better at it. Im a great believer in getting in the sty to wrestle with a pig and getting dirty.

I'm just saying they have to be fair - on all sides

No they dont. Thats bollocks frankly. You sound like some immature kid here dyno . Theres nothing fair about life never mind politics.

You need to open your eyes and live in the real world.

The In camp shouldn't have been allowed to cheat nor should the Leavers, but they both did. It makes it a huge farce.

i dont. political process in these islands have been a huge farce thoughout history. I dont remember anyone compalinging when tony blair won a large majority in parliament on less than 25% of the electorate , but let the public vote brexit , and all the imperfections that no one seemed to bother about before get brought up.

Thats too bad in my opinion.

When the next scot indy ref comes up , i couldnt give a feck how dirty it gets , as long as we win.

We have different philosophies I guess.

Ok, so maybe I am a bit naive, idealistic and 'sound immature' here.

I still don't think I am wrong. I don't expect any of the reforms I have suggested to happen, but that doesn't mean they aren't the right thing.

Only idealism and aiming for a much higher standard improves anything by any way at all, you know history, you know what I mean.

But fair enoygh if you disagree.

[Thomas]

Thomas, this needs to be constantly explained to you. The UK has left, that's England, Wales, Scotland and NI. There out, no going back.

If you think the NI "issue" is not a serious political issue your sadly mistaken. The WA was written to protect the GFA and the rights of the people of NI. IF the UK doesn't remove this recent legislation it has now been confirmed by the EU Parliament that there will be no trade deal, the the UK does act on the new legislation and say don't put in the sea border, that they said they would, then the EU response will be escalated.
To think the NI issue is a low priority shows the serious lack of understanding the UK has of the EU.
Tp get the EU parliament to make that statement would require the majority of all EU countries to agree with the current EU negotiating stance.

Meanwhile Sterling plummets.

the uk hasnt left the eu , it is still in transition. You can repeat it over and over till your green in the face  me bhoy , but you wont convince anyone on this forum never mind uk wide.

16 weeks to go gerry.

On top of that , no northern ireland isnt a big issue for the average uk voter.

told you this many a time before.

The vast majority couldnt goive a feck about northern ireland , and would happily jettison the place , never mind let it keep england i nthe customs union. you are overplaying your extremely weak hand.

I hope northern ireland does hold the english to ransom over the eu , but i extremely doubt it.

Thats why i wouldnt get your knickers in a twist over it gerry , cause quite simply no cant gives a feck.

[Thomas]

The Chagos,  dispute was not ruled on until 2015. And is still in dispute. We have had Tories running the show since 2010. Plenty of time to put that right. Are you  still insisting that two wrongs make a right.?
The worlds perception of us is what it is , we don't need Boris, to reinforce any negative perception anyone might have due to history.  Just another of your diversions from discussing whether Boris is in any way justified to  override WA .
Past history of illegal actions plays no part . It could never justify more illegal activity . This is not just about our integrity it's a simple case of right or wrong. And if the law is broken it's wrong. So laugh , If you would prefer to see the law broken in such difficult times .

right but you said here and now when talking about the uks apparent mythical world renown over how superb its integrity and word of honour is , and so i gave you an example so stop wriggling.

Before the tories were elected , the uks infamous integrity was being laughed at over such issues as the iraq war . I mean pick a feckin decade and have a laugh at the nonsense you talk.

Kenya? Northern ireland?

The list is endless.

Boris johnson is just the latest in a long line of leaders acting as all brit pms have done over history , so stop talking nonsense or singling out a tory because it suits your rhetoric.

On top of that , stop squealing about brexit.

Its happening  so deal with it.

You sayt you are worried about how the world perceives you , but are more than happy to deceive and over turn a democratic vote by your own people to leave the eu?

What are you gibbering about laws being broken for?

Thje uk has broken the law many a time before. Whats different about now  ?

"leave the eu with honour!?

I havent heard such laughable shite on this forum in a long time. Feck honour.

[Good old]

We just happen to be talking in terms of the world as it is now.

As am i.

You seriously hink the world as it is now thinks the uk has integrity?

Im laughing that hard here good old i can barely breathe.

A large part of the world ( over 110 countires) have just voted against the uk over its lack of integrity regarding the chagos islands as an example of how the world thinks of you just now.

You are regarded as a rogue state past and present that lacks , and always has lacked an ounce of integrity.

The Chagos,  dispute was not ruled on until 2015. And is still in dispute. We have had Tories running the show since 2010. Plenty of time to put that right. Are you  still insisting that two wrongs make a right.?
The worlds perception of us is what it is , we don't need Boris, to reinforce any negative perception anyone might have due to history.  Just another of your diversions from discussing whether Boris is in any way justified to  override WA .
Past history of illegal actions plays no part . It could never justify more illegal activity . This is not just about our integrity it's a simple case of right or wrong. And if the law is broken it's wrong. So laugh , If you would prefer to see the law broken in such difficult times .

[papasmurf]

Ireland is not part of the EU in regards to trade.
Only Southern Ireland is.
.

Really?

https://www.nisra.gov.uk/sites/nisra.gov.uk/files/publications/June-2020-Crib-Sheet-EU-Exit-Trade-Analysis.pdf

[Baff]

Ireland is not part of the EU in regards to trade.
Only Southern Ireland is.


The WA my Prime Minister signed does not put a trade border in the Irish Sea, the continued claims that he has done so has resulted in a clarification of this in a new bill.
One that has set your pants on fire, it seems.

If you do not approve of this, the correct course of action is perhaps to petition your MEP for the EU to annul the WA.

[GerryT]

IRL=EU=IRL.
In real life the EU equals in real life.

Ireland is a island off Great Britain.
The EU is a diplomatic institution governing a trade agreement between 27 nations.

Ireland and the EU are not the same thing.

And GB is a small island off the mainland, EU. Whats you point?
We are discussing trade ?