FT: Bojo to override WA

[GerryT]

Nah. The worst was probably Anthony Eden (1955-1957). As Churchill said, he should not have invaded Suez and once he did he should not have withdrawn. A nice bloke, but ineffectual. Or maybe Gordon Brown. Gordon had some good ideas but he could never carry his party or get much done.

I note that the Irish Times and Independent are full of articles telling all and sundry that Boris is shit in an iron bucket, but neither have any ideas how they will stop him doing what he wants. So at looks at this stage as though Johnson can do pretty much what he likes.

Every country has a list of poor PM's but I would say their heart was in the right place and would put their country first. Johnson is doing sever damage internationally to the UK reputation, once lost this is very hard to get back.
I've no reason to think that anyone in IRL or the EU has a way to stop Johnson. He can do what he wants, but answers to the people of the UK. If their happy with the course he's taking then that's what the UK wants. If not they need to voice their concern.  I haven't heard what Starmer has to say on recent developments, I presume he will rally those voices, or he should. The conversation needs to loose the rhetoric of leavers and remainers. As the UK has left that "battle" has past, it's now about the UK getting the best deals around the world for itself. The decision for you and the rest of the UK is, who's the best man/woman to make that happen

[Borchester]

Johnson is prob the worst PM the UK has ever had and will ever have.

Nah. The worst was probably Anthony Eden (1955-1957). As Churchill said, he should not have invaded Suez and once he did he should not have withdrawn. A nice bloke, but ineffectual. Or maybe Gordon Brown. Gordon had some good ideas but he could never carry his party or get much done.

I note that the Irish Times and Independent are full of articles telling all and sundry that Boris is shit in an iron bucket, but neither have any ideas how they will stop him doing what he wants. So at looks at this stage as though Johnson can do pretty much what he likes.

[GerryT]

Ireland aside the EU have not been negotiating in good faith since talks began . They have insisted on negotiations following ECHR and EU protocols . They seem to have forgotten that we have left and have our own set of rules to follow . It is not the way that trade agreements are made .

So David Davis showing up 4 times in a yr is good faith ?  agreeing a treaty and breaking it soon after is good faith. You don't know the meaning of good faith. The EU have not insisted on anything regarding the talks, the first meeting back in 2016 was to agree the format and process for brexit, the 2 parties at that meeting EU/UK agreed the way forward. Stop bleating on that you now don't like what you agreed. Give one example of where the EU has not negotiated in good faith.

Article 184 of the WA says the talks should proceed in good faith , I have seen little of that . What I have seen is stubborn people who if we locked them in a room for 4 years would not be able to agree the price of fish let alone who can catch it .

So you say but haven't shown how the EU has not proceeded in good faith. Being in the room trying to agree is the point. Agreeing and later unilaterally breaking that agreement is the best example of proceeding in bad faith

For me the WA became null and void almost as soon as the ink was dry with the attitude of Barnier  who refused to discuss anything until we agreed with him .

Totally wrong, the EU and UK agreed the process. on day 1. No-one told anyone what to do.

Johnsons tweaking with the N Ireland protocol is as we have said a sign that we will walk and are prepared in the event of a no deal . The  legality  of what he is up to is still to be proven one way or the other but for sure his case is not helped with all the usual suspects coming out in support of what are in effect our opponents in trade talks .

Johnson is a liar and has broken international law, He can't "tweak" the GFA, its not in his power. It's this attitude of UK superiority has the UK where it is. The GFA is agreed, if the UK wants to change it there is a mechanism to do so. He has zero power to make any changes on his own

Still thats enough of supporting the conservatives for one day from me . It could all be political game and probably is where the picture of doom and gloom is painted by the remoaners and Johnson comes to the rescue at the last minute with such a crap deal that the remoaners rejoice and those that voted leave accept it as the best deal we will get .

Its how we got into this mess in the first place .

Johnson is prob the worst PM the UK has ever had and will ever have. He has not the capacity or wit to secure a deal. Don't you realise his action today has stopped any chance of a deal. The EU will now start to play hardball, you might think they have up to now but they have been trying to help the UK. But that day has past.

[GerryT]

War in Ireland over EU membership.

Dream on.

I'll fix that for you:
war in the UK over EU membership     Dream on.

Because that's what it would be, NI is a part, for now, of the UK and under the control/protection of Johnson.

[Streetwalker]

Ireland aside the EU have not been negotiating in good faith since talks began . They have insisted on negotiations following ECHR and EU protocols . They seem to have forgotten that we have left and have our own set of rules to follow . It is not the way that trade agreements are made .

Article 184 of the WA says the talks should proceed in good faith , I have seen little of that . What I have seen is stubborn people who if we locked them in a room for 4 years would not be able to agree the price of fish let alone who can catch it .

For me the WA became null and void almost as soon as the ink was dry with the attitude of Barnier  who refused to discuss anything until we agreed with him . Johnsons tweaking with the N Ireland protocol is as we have said a sign that we will walk and are prepared in the event of a no deal . The  legality  of what he is up to is still to be proven one way or the other but for sure his case is not helped with all the usual suspects coming out in support of what are in effect our opponents in trade talks .

Still thats enough of supporting the conservatives for one day from me . It could all be political game and probably is where the picture of doom and gloom is painted by the remoaners and Johnson comes to the rescue at the last minute with such a crap deal that the remoaners rejoice and those that voted leave accept it as the best deal we will get .

Its how we got into this mess in the first place .

[Baff]

War in Ireland over EU membership.

Dream on.

[GerryT]

Nope,
Thiose who seek to destabilise that in the hope of staying in the EU or uniting Ireland wish to paint it that way.
Those who wish to overthrow the Tories the same.
But it's not very believeable.

Just the same old same old fom the same old people.

You don't make any sense, what's not believable ?

[Sheepy]

Thomas must have cashed his shares.

[Baff]

Your all one sided Gerry the most important part of the GFA for some WAS the recognition by Eire that the six counties were UK sovereign territory  and is exactly what it was brought in for . We already had the common travel area since the 1920's that gave free movement and the only reason for any border was because of a load of nutters running around with M1 Carbines .
Thankfully those days are behind us but any borders  pre the GFA were Irish home made .

I'll agree for some that ROI not having a claim on NI was important to them, but that's not in the GFA, but the GFA did make that happen, the ROI had to amend our constitution through a peoples referendum to take that clause out of our constitution (claiming a right to NI).
The GFA itself did a number of things, it created self govt with Stormount, with oversight from both ROI and UK govt's, not just the UK. Which was a big issue for republicans and not swearing an oath to the King/Queen that has to be done in Westminster. It gave rights to people in NI that could get Irish citizenship and have that recognised legally by UK and ROI. The agreement also prevented any future barriers to trade/travel/work on the Island. Finally it allows for a vote to be taken where NI can elect to rejoin ROI, this can't be over ruled by Westminster and NI doesn't have to ask permission to hold a vote.
Those days are behind up, because of all these things, a treaty that satisfied both sides and provides a balance. Once the UK doesn't change that then fine, but it's looking like the UK is doing exactly that.

Nope,
Thiose who seek to destabilise that in the hope of staying in the EU or uniting Ireland wish to paint it that way.
Those who wish to overthrow the Tories the same.
But it's not very believeable.

Just the same old same old fom the same old people.

[Sheepy]

Your all one sided Gerry the most important part of the GFA for some WAS the recognition by Eire that the six counties were UK sovereign territory  and is exactly what it was brought in for . We already had the common travel area since the 1920's that gave free movement and the only reason for any border was because of a load of nutters running around with M1 Carbines .
Thankfully those days are behind us but any borders  pre the GFA were Irish home made .

I'll agree for some that ROI not having a claim on NI was important to them, but that's not in the GFA, but the GFA did make that happen, the ROI had to amend our constitution through a peoples referendum to take that clause out of our constitution (claiming a right to NI).
The GFA itself did a number of things, it created self govt with Stormount, with oversight from both ROI and UK govt's, not just the UK. Which was a big issue for republicans and not swearing an oath to the King/Queen that has to be done in Westminster. It gave rights to people in NI that could get Irish citizenship and have that recognised legally by UK and ROI. The agreement also prevented any future barriers to trade/travel/work on the Island. Finally it allows for a vote to be taken where NI can elect to rejoin ROI, this can't be over ruled by Westminster and NI doesn't have to ask permission to hold a vote.
Those days are behind up, because of all these things, a treaty that satisfied both sides and provides a balance. Once the UK doesn't change that then fine, but it's looking like the UK is doing exactly that.

Well you know what they say Gerry, nobody is untouchable,
https://uk.yahoo.com/finance/news/elon-musks-wealth-plunges-16-105240999.html

[GerryT]

Your all one sided Gerry the most important part of the GFA for some WAS the recognition by Eire that the six counties were UK sovereign territory  and is exactly what it was brought in for . We already had the common travel area since the 1920's that gave free movement and the only reason for any border was because of a load of nutters running around with M1 Carbines .
Thankfully those days are behind us but any borders  pre the GFA were Irish home made .

I'll agree for some that ROI not having a claim on NI was important to them, but that's not in the GFA, but the GFA did make that happen, the ROI had to amend our constitution through a peoples referendum to take that clause out of our constitution (claiming a right to NI).
The GFA itself did a number of things, it created self govt with Stormount, with oversight from both ROI and UK govt's, not just the UK. Which was a big issue for republicans and not swearing an oath to the King/Queen that has to be done in Westminster. It gave rights to people in NI that could get Irish citizenship and have that recognised legally by UK and ROI. The agreement also prevented any future barriers to trade/travel/work on the Island. Finally it allows for a vote to be taken where NI can elect to rejoin ROI, this can't be over ruled by Westminster and NI doesn't have to ask permission to hold a vote.
Those days are behind up, because of all these things, a treaty that satisfied both sides and provides a balance. Once the UK doesn't change that then fine, but it's looking like the UK is doing exactly that.

[Streetwalker]

The withdrawal agreement was a supposed willingness on both sides  for a smooth exit and a  bla bla bla  free trade agreement at its core .. As that is looking as far away as its ever been  I guess you could say the agreement is null and void . Johnson  however is just using a line from the Mayhem agreement of '' room for minor alterations '' it his attempt to make it fit for a no deal brexit
The UK will uphold the GFA  part of which states that all parties recognise that  Northern Ireland is part of  UK  sovereign territory .

You have it totally backward and that's a fact. The WA is specifically written to protect UK and EU citizens rights, the NI protocol and such things as the single electricity market in ireland, the divorce bill. The purpose of this agreement was to make sure these areas were agreed in a treaty BEFORE the UK left, so that in the event there were only a limited or NO FTA that these areas were all ready dealt with. If there were a fully comprehensive FTA then there would be no need for the WA. SO in total opposition to what you think, the WA is there to cover any eventuality that there is either a limited FTA or no FTA.
The political declaration, a separate document was about the future relationship, it wasn't binding, it was aspirational.

There are mechanisms to alter the WA, this is by using the mechanism within the WA itself, which is first a joining committee and if that fails a arbitration panel. It's all spelt out in the WA. Nowhere does it say, "this doesn't suit our narrative anymore so we're changing it".

Yes the GFA does state that NI is part of the UK but that's not what the GFA was brought in for. It states that NI and ROI shall have no barriers to trade, employment, people movements, the right for all NI people to be citizens of ROI by birth etc.... If the WA is broken in the manner being discussed then that will break the GFA.

Your all one sided Gerry the most important part of the GFA for some WAS the recognition by Eire that the six counties were UK sovereign territory  and is exactly what it was brought in for . We already had the common travel area since the 1920's that gave free movement and the only reason for any border was because of a load of nutters running around with M1 Carbines .
Thankfully those days are behind us but any borders  pre the GFA were Irish home made .

[GerryT]

No, when leaving the worst position is world war.
The next worst is civil war.
The next worse is not leaving at all.
The next worse is leaving in name only.
The next worse is a bad deal.
The next worse is no deal.
And the best is a good deal.

Leaving on WTO is actually one of the considerably better options out there.

Baff your loosing in, first a world war has nothing to do with brexit, that doesn't count. Secondly you can leave by staying, so that's also out. leaving with no deal is WTO, so thats also out as their the same, any deal is better than WTO so that's wrong. Maybe you don't understand WTO. The UK economy is 80% service based. That means on WTO, which doesn't cover services you have no agreed mechanism for your export service market and most if not all countries close that door. SO tell me how is that not really bad for the UK

[GerryT]

The withdrawal agreement was a supposed willingness on both sides  for a smooth exit and a  bla bla bla  free trade agreement at its core .. As that is looking as far away as its ever been  I guess you could say the agreement is null and void . Johnson  however is just using a line from the Mayhem agreement of '' room for minor alterations '' it his attempt to make it fit for a no deal brexit
The UK will uphold the GFA  part of which states that all parties recognise that  Northern Ireland is part of  UK  sovereign territory . 

You have it totally backward and that's a fact. The WA is specifically written to protect UK and EU citizens rights, the NI protocol and such things as the single electricity market in ireland, the divorce bill. The purpose of this agreement was to make sure these areas were agreed in a treaty BEFORE the UK left, so that in the event there were only a limited or NO FTA that these areas were all ready dealt with. If there were a fully comprehensive FTA then there would be no need for the WA. SO in total opposition to what you think, the WA is there to cover any eventuality that there is either a limited FTA or no FTA.
The political declaration, a separate document was about the future relationship, it wasn't binding, it was aspirational.

There are mechanisms to alter the WA, this is by using the mechanism within the WA itself, which is first a joining committee and if that fails a arbitration panel. It's all spelt out in the WA. Nowhere does it say, "this doesn't suit our narrative anymore so we're changing it".

Yes the GFA does state that NI is part of the UK but that's not what the GFA was brought in for. It states that NI and ROI shall have no barriers to trade, employment, people movements, the right for all NI people to be citizens of ROI by birth etc.... If the WA is broken in the manner being discussed then that will break the GFA.

[Baff]

That's not even close to "the worst scenario".

When leaving the worst position is WTO, any trade deal is an improvement on that. SO yes on day one that is the worst position. After that it can get far worse, ie no country signs a trade deal with the UK, that then makes it far worse.

No, when leaving the worst position is world war.
The next worst is civil war.
The next worse is not leaving at all.
The next worse is leaving in name only.
The next worse is a bad deal.
The next worse is no deal.
And the best is a good deal.

Leaving on WTO is actually one of the considerably better options out there.