Tory Voters More Likely 'Dont care' if Scot Indy Happens

[Thomas]

I think if we are going to have referendum in Scotland every time  it's called for until they get the nod for independence

Eh?

Do you understand democracy and how it works good old?

I know you labour types dont like it , but heres how it goes.

You stand on a mandate , issue your promises and manifesto , and folk vote for you in an election , and if you win you take power.

When in government , you hold a referendum if thats what you are mandated to do. Once the result is know , you implement it.

Democracy by its very nature is one big neverendum.

What you labour remainer types seem to forget , is the bit where the results are implemented wether you agree or not.

[Thomas]

You can twitter on about any number of past injustices, and ancient reasons for Scots to want independence.

I havent mentioned any past injustices. I gave you a brief history lesson , and scotland gave england over the centuries as good as it got.

I dont want independence because of some past "injustice" or ancient battle. I want independence as it is the norm for all countries around the world.

But for the best part of three hundred years  they have stayed in the union.

We have , but not through choice.

I already told you from 1707 to 1820 , the was constant armed uprising and rebellion aimed at breaking free . The twentieth century similarly was full of political manouvering aimed at taking scotland out of the union.

So for the majority of the three hundred years , there has barely been a time when scotland hasnt wanted independence.

Certainly in the twentieth century  union with England was never seriously questioned, to the degree it was ever likely to happen.

Macintyre won the first snp seat in 1945 , and the party treasurer john maccormack established the scottish convention , a body aimed at mobilising scottish opinion in pursuit of home rule.

Cormack established what became known as the (new) national covenant in 1949 , which garnered over 2 million signatures in favour of scottish home rule. Westminster attemtped to ignore it and brush it under the carpet.

We had winie ewing winning the famous by election result against labour in 1967 , and then the party doubled its vote in 1970. so thorughout the 60s and 70s the snp and support for indy was gradually growing ,and eventually we had the 1979 devolution fiasco and stitch up by labour where a yes to devolution vote became a no vote.

We had the SDA and other scottish political groups and figures appealing to the council of europe in the nineties , which then led to devolution being implented , and you tell me the union was never seriously questioned in the twentieth century?

Again you know nothing about history and politics beyond your own narrow fantasies.

Just a few years ago the little lady leader of the SNP couldn't get anyone to take a pamphlet from her on the streets.

Eh?

The SNP have been in power since 2007. This is now 2020. What are you gibbering  about now?

Devolution , pricked a bubble

What bubble?

and a bankers crisis followed by Tory austerity made a few ears go up.

More new labour revisionism.

Scotland has suffered more at the hands of labour in my opinion than any tory austerity.

Every area  , country or region you touch , you bring down into the cesspits with you.

If tory austerity is the reason why "a few ears have went up" in your weak opinion , why hasnt scotland ran into the arms of labour?

The question must have been in many minds , are the cracks appearing in our financial security in the U.K.

what financial security?

The question is now in many minds we can no longer afford to be in the uk as it is draining us dry.

Remember when lord jock macconnel , labour first minister of scotland , stepped over the poor begging in the streets of glasgow and handed back 2 billion of scottish taxpayers monery to blair and brown , and told them he couldnt spend it and was rewarded with ermine for services to the union and labour?

That financial security?

Even so a referendum still didn't show history  driving everyone in Scotland ,to independence.

I didnt say history did drive everyone in scotland to independence . You were the one blagging on about the dambusters and world war two and how we are all british fighting the germans in the never ending brit nat loop of talking about WW2.

300 years on though , and 62 % of scottish people still identifiy as scottish only in terms of national id. While your british identity can only manage 6%.

But then , came the great Tory , lie. Stay in the U K, and stay in the EU.

Nope that was the labour party.

Are you stupid?

Darling and milliband  ,along with labourites like blair macdougall , were the ones punting the lies to scotland. The tories funded them , and labour did the dirty work on the ground .Why do you think labour went on to lose 40/41 seats in the following election after the referendum?

But still to this day  we don't have an unmistakable wish for full independence 

Should Scotland be an independent country? (Survation, 2nd-7th September 2020)
Yes 53% (+3)
No 47% (-3)

"Ministers are increasingly nervous that a Scottish breakaway is on the cards (the cabinet was recently briefed that the latest opinion polls show 56% of Scots would vote for independence, and 44% to stay in the UK).

And even if recent polls show it could happen it's pretty narrow

Well we were told in 2014 55% no was "overwhelming , and now 56% Yes is narrow? 

.which means people are still divided history or otherwise.

show me a vote where people arent divided? There is never 100% in anything.

However , if independence won by 70% , you would still bleat about division , same as you are trying to bleat  about 52% somehow not being enough.

I dont recall you labour types moaning when tony blair won a landslide on less than 25% of 44.5 million people wo win the 2001 GE.

The thing  is Thomas, you might have known for years what you want for Scotland, but up to now it's not been what the Majority of Scots  would sanction

sure , but the majority of scots dont want what you want either.

. And the numbers would suggest a not very united Scotland.

More united than your country.

At least we indepdentists in scotland could take losing with grace , and accept the result and take our medicine , unlike you anti democrats in england who cant handle losing and have been whinging non stop about taking your medicine since 2016.

[patman post]

This is all about choice. I think I knew that ,Pat.  Am I supposed to accept that as long as that's the case all choice is the right choice.?
I think if we are going to have referendum in Scotland every time  it's called for until they get the nod for independence , Then I think we should all do the honourable thing and put  the union flag in the bin.  It would have served its purpose.

Whether any choice is the right choice or not is the responsibility of those who make the choice, no one else — unless they interfered to influence the outcome. I believe the Scots were lied to in the run up to their last referendum — particularly when they were told the surest way to remain in the EU was to remain in the UK...
Whether there's another referendum on Scottish independence should depend on enough people putting forward a sufficiently compelling case to persuade everyone who has a significant stake in the outcome...

[Good old]

I understand  where you go there. But what I see is a desperate response to the fact that the U.K. now virtually stands alone. It's not a recipe for a better future Just a retreat into a condition left behind three hundred years ago.
I think it's a bit much to equate the continuance of the U.K. with a life in the past. Every modern  nation is built to one degree or another on the past.  Let's face it  breaking the Union is retrograde to some extent. The whole of Europe could leap back to its past simply by breaking up Germany , Spain Italy, even France.

If the UK now stands alone, it's the the UK's own choice — it has chosen to step back from its bespoke membership of the EU. It is now able to choose its own destiny and forge new alliances. Whether other EU members choose something similar, and whether individual members choose to revert to their once individual independent regional states before they became unified nations, is also their choice.

What's wrong with Tories who support the Scottish call for an independence referendum, waving the ? Tories don't have a non-Union Flag carrying equivalent of the Red Flag, the black and yellow of the SNP, Y Ddraig Goch, etc. The majority of the rest of the world recognises the Union Jack for GB, the UK and even England. So it could still be the flag even if Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales all leave the UK...

This is all about choice. I think I knew that ,Pat.  Am I supposed to accept that as long as that's the case all choice is the right choice.?
I think if we are going to have referendum in Scotland every time  it's called for until they get the nod for independence , Then I think we should all do the honourable thing and put  the union flag in the bin.  It would have served its purpose.

[patman post]

I understand  where you go there. But what I see is a desperate response to the fact that the U.K. now virtually stands alone. It's not a recipe for a better future Just a retreat into a condition left behind three hundred years ago.
I think it's a bit much to equate the continuance of the U.K. with a life in the past. Every modern  nation is built to one degree or another on the past.  Let's face it  breaking the Union is retrograde to some extent. The whole of Europe could leap back to its past simply by breaking up Germany , Spain Italy, even France.

If the UK now stands alone, it's the the UK's own choice — it has chosen to step back from its bespoke membership of the EU. It is now able to choose its own destiny and forge new alliances. Whether other EU members choose something similar, and whether individual members choose to revert to their once individual independent regional states before they became unified nations, is also their choice.

What's wrong with Tories who support the Scottish call for an independence referendum, waving the ? Tories don't have a non-Union Flag carrying equivalent of the Red Flag, the black and yellow of the SNP, Y Ddraig Goch, etc. The majority of the rest of the world recognises the Union Jack for GB, the UK and even England. So it could still be the flag even if Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales all leave the UK...

[Good old]

Where the hell have I said I was not aware of the actions of England ,

The english people arent my enemy , for the umpteenth time.

Your parliament is my enemy.

I'm well aware of our past history

quite clearly you arent listening to all your we won the war and bled together shite previously.

yet it has taken the Scots nation 300 fecking years to finally question what you say is plain unadulterated historical truth.

No it hasnt. This is exactly what im talking about , you dont have a feckin clue outwith we invented the welfare state , we won the war , blah blah blah brit nat brit nat.

For the first 120 years of union , there was constant armed uprising and rebellion . Then throughout the 20th century , there was political agitation in many forms for home rule , including mass petitions , the snp being formed , and of course the infamour 1979 devolution referendum labour stitched us up over.

So what are you talking  about three hundred years for? There has barely been a decade of without struggle against the union.

The Bonny prince , was a dynastic and religious blip.

The stewarts were hated in scotland. If you remeber  jamesy boy got his crown taken from him by the scottish , and charlie boy only got scottish support purely because he agreed to end the political union with england is he became monarch again.

So what are you talking about now?

Are you saying , the Union was not fought for in two World wars.

yep thts exactly what i am saying.

In that case why did my grandfather spend 48 hrs backing up a famous Scots battalion inWW1

oops dambuster tune on .

...and my grandpa signed up because he had n o job no feckin money , life was hel  ,and ended up getting slaughtered at st valery along with the other scottish rearguard while british troops fled at dunkirk.

He certainly wasnt there to preserve any feckin union.

Next?

considering what they should do with this union in the future?i

right so you come out wiht all the old historical sentimental cac like we won the war together , and when someone reminds scots how we saved france from england ,at the battle of bauge , we get told thats history and isnt relevant to the future?

What I said was that the people not Scots , who are thought to be Tories , should consider what there ancestors put into the union.

and people like you who are labour couldnt give a feck about scotland outwith voting fodder to prop up your political party.

Those days are long gone .

I have lived and loved the U.K. my people have lived loved and died for the Union.

and i similarly for my country. I couldnt give a feck about yours  anymore than any other country on earth.

The scottish people have been poltically culturally and economically united with many nations over the centuries such as norway , ireland , and france , for a far far longer period of time than the wee three hunner years wae your country in your one sided union that you keep us hostage in.

so dont give me all your sentimental cac.

You can twitter on about any number of past injustices, and ancient reasons for Scots to want independence. But for the best part of three hundred years  they have stayed in the union. Certainly in the twentieth century  union with England was never seriously questioned, to the degree it was ever likely to happen.
Just a few years ago the little lady leader of the SNP couldn't get anyone to take a pamphlet from her on the streets.
Devolution , pricked a bubble , and a bankers crisis followed by Tory austerity made a few ears go up. The question must have been in many minds , are the cracks appearing in our financial security in the U.K. Even so a referendum still didn't show history  driving everyone in Scotland ,to independence. But then , came the great Tory , lie. Stay in the U K, and stay in the EU. That would not have gone unnoticed . But still to this day  we don't have an unmistakable wish for full independence .  And even if recent polls show it could happen it's pretty narrow .which means people are still divided history or otherwise.   The thing  is Thomas, you might have known for years what you want for Scotland, but up to now it's not been what the Majority of Scots  would sanction . And the numbers would suggest a not very united Scotland.

[Borg Refinery]

You weren't exactly compromising in your own language..

"As our fore fathers fought tooth and nail to preserve not just our democracy , but our  United Kingdom.It should be no surprise some of us still would honour their sacrifices,"

I assumed you were at least in part aiming that at me and anyone who's 'anti union'. Surely you can understand it's riling for me too when you lead an aggressive charge with a post like that?

I'll respond perfectly nicely as long as others do same. I don't see that as unreasonable.

Anyway, you painted yourself as a new labour guy, and like I said.. they were all over the place position wise. They IMHO were faceless neoliberals that would do or say anything to gain the popular vote.

To me, that's not really good enough.. theywere pro union, pro federalism, anti fedeealism, anti nationalist (it's racist), pro nationzlist (the early years, then for a while Blunkett's policies..) etc.

[Good old]

But the point was GO, that Nu Lab red Tory types are just as bad for that as Tories are.

Are you now going to yet again revise the history of Nu Lab for us?

The thing is ,Dyna, go back to your summing up of your OP. And then look again at my response.
I didn't say the Scots shouldn't seek to be independent. I didn't say that they had always been treated in good faith.
What I said was in effect that Tories  should never wave a union flag , if  they encourage the breaking of the union.
As you say the Tory party waves the union  flag at every opportunity. It's so often a sham.
I don't have to revise anything for N Labour.  Thousands of socialists throughout the years have fully supported the union flag it's not the Tories  possession as they would have people believe. And I carry no label, I go where I want.
I will say your comment riled me, because it seemed to be completely misjudging what was actually intended. my response was over the top. I am not your troll or anyone else's.

[Thomas]

Where the hell have I said I was not aware of the actions of England ,

The english people arent my enemy , for the umpteenth time.

Your parliament is my enemy.

I'm well aware of our past history

quite clearly you arent listening to all your we won the war and bled together shite previously.

yet it has taken the Scots nation 300 fecking years to finally question what you say is plain unadulterated historical truth.

No it hasnt. This is exactly what im talking about , you dont have a feckin clue outwith we invented the welfare state , we won the war , blah blah blah brit nat brit nat.

For the first 120 years of union , there was constant armed uprising and rebellion . Then throughout the 20th century , there was political agitation in many forms for home rule , including mass petitions , the snp being formed , and of course the infamour 1979 devolution referendum labour stitched us up over.

So what are you talking  about three hundred years for? There has barely been a decade of without struggle against the union.

The Bonny prince , was a dynastic and religious blip.

The stewarts were hated in scotland. If you remeber  jamesy boy got his crown taken from him by the scottish , and charlie boy only got scottish support purely because he agreed to end the political union with england is he became monarch again.

So what are you talking about now?

Are you saying , the Union was not fought for in two World wars.

yep thts exactly what i am saying.

In that case why did my grandfather spend 48 hrs backing up a famous Scots battalion inWW1

oops dambuster tune on .

...and my grandpa signed up because he had n o job no feckin money , life was hel  ,and ended up getting slaughtered at st valery along with the other scottish rearguard while british troops fled at dunkirk.

He certainly wasnt there to preserve any feckin union.

Next?

considering what they should do with this union in the future?i

right so you come out wiht all the old historical sentimental cac like we won the war together , and when someone reminds scots how we saved france from england ,at the battle of bauge , we get told thats history and isnt relevant to the future?

What I said was that the people not Scots , who are thought to be Tories , should consider what there ancestors put into the union.

and people like you who are labour couldnt give a feck about scotland outwith voting fodder to prop up your political party.

Those days are long gone .

I have lived and loved the U.K. my people have lived loved and died for the Union.

and i similarly for my country. I couldnt give a feck about yours  anymore than any other country on earth.

The scottish people have been poltically culturally and economically united with many nations over the centuries such as norway , ireland , and france , for a far far longer period of time than the wee three hunner years wae your country in your one sided union that you keep us hostage in.

so dont give me all your sentimental cac.

[Borg Refinery]

But the point was GO, that Nu Lab red Tory types are just as bad for that as Tories are.

Are you now going to yet again revise the history of Nu Lab for us?

[Good old]

I don't do surrender. Is that supposed to be mature comment.

sure you surrender. The whole thread has been one big surrender on your part , where yet agin you are shown up to not having a feckin clue about what you are talking about.

We have went from this british nationalist cac..

As our fore fathers fought tooth and nail to preserve not just our democracy , but our  United Kingdom.It should be no surprise some of us still would honour their sacrifices,

and this

[quote author=Good old link=topic=1778.msg37722#msg37722 date=

Thats what bwitish history is , one big fucken revision fest and fantasy .

You dont have a clue good old. You havent caught up with devolution yet never mind  scotlands history .

Where the hell have I said I was not aware of the actions of England , Or the U.K., with regard to all of its dealings .
I'm well aware of our past history ,not every last inch of it but enough to know it was only ever conducted to suit those at Westminster.
That doesn't alter  what we get from you is a narrative that  you say is plain fact, yet it has taken the Scots nation 300 fecking years to finally question what you say is plain unadulterated historical truth.
The Bonny prince , was a dynastic and religious blip.
Yes people were removed in Scotland and Ireland. And what did most of them do. Go round the world  displacing  indigenous populations . Many by armed force. The US army was full of Irish, destroying the nations of N America, the Scots didn't mind taking the land .Irony Ah!
Are you saying , the Union was not fought for in two World wars. In that case why did my grandfather spend 48 hrs backing up a famous Scots battalion inWW1? It's you that is blind to the facts of that situation. Are you seriously saying that no one need consider why their grandfather gave life and limb. When considering what they should do with this union in the future?i
British history is one big F.—-ing revision, so what it is no real secret everyone knows that. Dyna,, says Stalin,  said , history is written by the winners . Stalin!. Just about everyone  repeats that . The fecking world never knew that until Joe, thought it up.
Nowhere here do I say the Scots haven't got reason to question the last three hundred years. What I said was that the people not Scots , who are thought to be Tories , should consider what there ancestors put into the union. And if they can not support the idea of union, then don't wave a union flag it's totally insincere.i
What I get from you is nothing but a constant tirade , aimed at turning everything put to you into an imagined all out assault on the idea of Scots Independence.
I have lived and loved the U.K. my people have lived loved and died for the Union. Some of which were Scots,. I will revere all those that have fought and died for the Union,.  And I will not renounce it's history. Because it suits those that would not support it.

[Thomas]

That's exactly it though, that's what I've been saying.

And as I discussed with a historian many many months back, most history is just bloody revision. What is it Stalin said? "the winners write history", he wasn't wrong was he.

As someone who's been threatened both physically in person and otherwize more times than I can feckin count, by Brit Nats and all kinds of others just for having an opinion, nothing surprises me anymore.

There's literally no low that people who hate me and others like me will sink to to try and discredit contrary opinions.

Sure but british history seems to be an hours lecture on the romans , two hours lecture on the saxons( who were by and large irrelevant to scotland ireland and wales) a few rapes and pillages of the vikings , normans then a big grey uncomforatble area till the nice easy things like the empire , how nasty we were to black people as slaves , and then a non stop loop about world war two , and a few tidbits about the trenches in the first one.

So in britains case , its not even the fact history is written by the winners ( its is , for example glasgow labour council for years tries to hide the grave of the executed scottish republican martyrs baird and hardie in sighthill cemetry) but the fact there are such large unjoinable gaps in british history which show the uncomfortable truth  that they dont even try over most of it , but merely ignore the majority pre 1707.

Good old is just a product of that brainwashing and doesnt like it when it gets laid bare.

[Borg Refinery]

Thats what bwitish history is , one big fucken revision fest and fantasy .

.... You havent caught up with devolution yet never mind  scotlands history .

That's exactly it though, that's what I've been saying.

And as I discussed with a historian many many months back, most history is just bloody revision. What is it Stalin said? "the winners write history", he wasn't wrong was he.

As someone who's been threatened both physically in person and otherwize more times than I can feckin count, by Brit Nats and all kinds of others just for having an opinion, nothing surprises me anymore.

There's literally no low that people who hate me and others like me will sink to to try and discredit contrary opinions.

[Thomas]

I don't do surrender. Is that supposed to be mature comment.

sure you surrender. The whole thread has been one big surrender on your part , where yet agin you are shown up to not having a feckin clue about what you are talking about.

We have went from this british nationalist cac..

As our fore fathers fought tooth and nail to preserve not just our democracy , but our  United Kingdom.It should be no surprise some of us still would honour their sacrifices,

and this

Is that all you can say, to the generations of people of all the countries of the U.K. that have given life and limb, for the preservation of the U.K. I wish I could revise history as the should never have wasted life on you.

I mean revise history?

Thats what bwitish history is , one big fucken revision fest and fantasy .

You dont have a clue good old. You havent caught up with devolution yet never mind  scotlands history .

[Good old]

I don't do surrender. Is that supposed to be mature comment.