A Forum cabinet - just for fun

[Sheepy]

The labour party have simply burned too many bridges with too many people .

I confidently predict that you are wrong. People will tire of the Tories. They always do eventually. It is just a matter of time. Unless you actually believe the Tories will be in power permanently? In the latest polls Labour have been drawing level with the Tories. If you write Labour off so complacently and permanently, the day will come when you will have egg on your face.

I confidently predict, you will predict the same thing you have been predicting for over a decade, I also predict for all of the bombarding of the electorate in hard times and with the Chinese sniffles rife and the rise of mental health problems, the electorate will decide new labour are the same duplicitous bastards they have always been.

[Thomas]

I confidently predict that you are wrong. People will tire of the Tories. They always do eventually. It is just a matter of time. Unless you actually believe the Tories will be in power permanently? In the latest polls Labour have been drawing level with the Tories. If you write Labour off so complacently and permanently, the day will come when you will have egg on your face.

This is wrong on so many levels.

This is your masterplan steve........people getting tired of the tories so labour fall into power?

However much we both dislike tony blair , when blair won in 1997 , it wasnt just the fact he was facing an inept worn out tory administration. He was also offering something new and unheard of before in yookay politics.

Starmer  , like corbyn before him , and milliband before that , are offering more of the same old labour .

On top of that , what makes you think you wil always be able to fall into power simply because you are the only other option in a two horse race?

This is what i mean about labour never learning lessons. You were confident for years you would win scotland as you were the only alternative to the tories , and along came a third party....the snp , and put you right out on your arse till you were polling in fourth place never mind winning scotland?

You can't even contemplate similar happening in england with a third major english party who could sweep you and the tories aside.

Hell mend ye when it happens.

[srb7677]

The labour party have simply burned too many bridges with too many people .

I confidently predict that you are wrong. People will tire of the Tories. They always do eventually. It is just a matter of time. Unless you actually believe the Tories will be in power permanently? In the latest polls Labour have been drawing level with the Tories. If you write Labour off so complacently and permanently, the day will come when you will have egg on your face.

Tire of the tories? Probably,but turn to labour....well the young who haven't experienced the lies ,sleaze and broken promises might but the older ones who you appear to despise.....I don't think so.

That you've dismissed those of the red wall who voiced their displeasure and don't want them back I can only say I find that very strange,why do you think they voted the way they did?because they were tired of being patronised and ignored.

You think you'll get a majority without them? Dream on the metropolitan areas so beloved will not deliver it,TBH I find it all quite sad and being a liberal tosspot don't want to see those votes converted to the extremes at either end of the political spectrum.

New labour,well that's been tried and failed miserably,something new is needed but  don't see it coming from anyone in that party.

Let's make one thing clear, Cromwell. I do not despise older people. Neither do I despise you. I find it sad if you think I do.

[cromwell]

The labour party have simply burned too many bridges with too many people .

I confidently predict that you are wrong. People will tire of the Tories. They always do eventually. It is just a matter of time. Unless you actually believe the Tories will be in power permanently? In the latest polls Labour have been drawing level with the Tories. If you write Labour off so complacently and permanently, the day will come when you will have egg on your face.

Tire of the tories? Probably,but turn to labour....well the young who haven't experienced the lies ,sleaze and broken promises might but the older ones who you appear to despise.....I don't think so.

That you've dismissed those of the red wall who voiced their displeasure and don't want them back I can only say I find that very strange,why do you think they voted the way they did?because they were tired of being patronised and ignored.

You think you'll get a majority without them? Dream on the metropolitan areas so beloved will not deliver it,TBH I find it all quite sad and being a liberal tosspot don't want to see those votes converted to the extremes at either end of the political spectrum.

New labour,well that's been tried and failed miserably,something new is needed but  don't see it coming from anyone in that party.

[srb7677]

The labour party have simply burned too many bridges with too many people .

I confidently predict that you are wrong. People will tire of the Tories. They always do eventually. It is just a matter of time. Unless you actually believe the Tories will be in power permanently? In the latest polls Labour have been drawing level with the Tories. If you write Labour off so complacently and permanently, the day will come when you will have egg on your face.

[Thomas]

Even Starmer is now bleating about his "patriotism" and trying to show how he "loves his country"

I wonder why that could be deppity?

I think starmer is going to get torn to shreds at the next general election.......i said this many a time the guy has too much brexit baggage for the public to forget.

54% of the public in england who voted brexit wont trust him enough to vote him into power in case he takes england back into the eu or some sort of eu membership in everything but name , and the 56% of the scottish public who want indy wont touch him either.

The labour party have simply burned too many bridges with too many people .

[Thomas]

As it happens, the policies of our 2017 manifesto were very popular with my own people, as this polling evidence which I have shared before demonstrates....

https://www.businessinsider.com/poll-huge-public-support-for-jeremy-corbyns-manifesto-promises-2017-5?r=US&IR=T

We lost - fairly narrowly in 2017 - for other reasons. Leadership issues, disunity, Brexit, etc. We need to deal with the reasons we lost and build on our popular policies. But I fear that throwing the baby out with the bathwater is a serious risk.

We seem to be going around in circles steve. You keep mentioning the 2017 GE , whilst completely ignoring the 2019 GE result as though you are trying to block out what has happened in complete denial and disbelief.

I take your point regarding some of your policy in 2017. We discussed this before , but the fact remains despite your alleged popualr policy , labour came second in a two horse race.

So the alleged popualr polices of 2017 still werent enough for the public to vote you into power , against the worst conservative leader in history , and the worst tory GE campaign we have ever seen. The tory campagin was that bad it led to insinuations they were trying to throw it away to get out of dealing with brexit if you remember?

....and still you couldnt win.!

So i wouldnt be shouting about how allegedly popular your policies were in 2017 , because if true , it makes the result even more worse.

All this though steve was two general election results ago.

My point to you was you can't keep wishing for the scottish irish and welsh to hold your hands to get the english left into power......you need to convince your own people. You can't do that though ...can you?

Labour havent won a GE  majority in england since 2005 , so thats 15 years and counting your fellow countrymen have been rejecting you.

I keep saying this , it wasnt scottish votes that put blair into power in 97 ,01 ,05....it was england. Thats where you need to win , not scotland.

Instead of taking offence and argung with me about scotland and scottish votes to prop up english labour , maybe you should be listning to your former voters in yuor own country like deppity dawg , cromwell and many others who repeatedly tell you why you lost the white working class english vote.

If you dont listen to them , you wont learn , and will never get back into power.

[DeppityDawg]

We need to deal with the reasons we lost and build on our popular policies. But I fear that throwing the baby out with the bathwater is a serious risk

The reason you lost is because the white working class vote has rejected Labour. Even Starmer is now bleating about his "patriotism" and trying to show how he "loves his country". Meanwhile you said in another thread that you don't think getting them back is even worth it, (because they are all "right wing" or words to that effect). So in other words, the biggest demographic source of votes for your party, you don't even want?

Hey, SRB? Has it ever occured to you that they don't want you either?

[srb7677]

Its down to you to convince your own people in your own country of your left wing politics. If you cannot , then it shows how much you are out of touch politically with your own people.

As it happens, the policies of our 2017 manifesto were very popular with my own people, as this polling evidence which I have shared before demonstrates....

https://www.businessinsider.com/poll-huge-public-support-for-jeremy-corbyns-manifesto-promises-2017-5?r=US&IR=T

We lost - fairly narrowly in 2017 - for other reasons. Leadership issues, disunity, Brexit, etc. We need to deal with the reasons we lost and build on our popular policies. But I fear that throwing the baby out with the bathwater is a serious risk.

[Thomas]

I don't regard you as any kind of personal enemy either, and you are passionate for what you believe in, as am I.

sure steve that goes without saying. This is a political forum , and as you know fine well , people get passionate for what they believe in. It is nothing personal , at the end of the day its a load of people talking shite about politics on the interwebby.

As you have no doubt picked up upon, where I stand within Labour is in a state of flux as my exact position is wavering. I haven't yet made up my mind on my chosen path and to a large extent am awaiting developments. This lays me open to criticism for contradictory thinking, but such is my situation right now. I want to believe the Labour party will offer hope to the struggling millions because I cannot se anyone else doing so, at least not outside Scotland. I am reluctant to give up on that hope until I have to. Hence am awaiting developments on policy

Again i realise that , but as you would imagine i regard it as you waiting on yet another false dawn.

Are you my political enemy? I have thought about that and whilst no doubt most in my party would see you as a political enemy, I don't. I am not ideologically wedded to the union and understand why many in Scotland might have given up on it. I think if the Scots want to go their own way we should let them and do it with the hand of friendship. I see the SNP - and hence you - as potentially people we can and must work with in a hung parliament to serve our mutual interests on policy, including facilitating a referendum on independence. Personally, I would like to see the Scots in some way help to facilitate a progressive government of change for the entire UK, perhaps by the SNP cooperating with us in Westminster, but that is just a personal hope. Hoping for that does not make me see you as a political enemy. In any independence referendum I would rather my party stayed neutral.

See this is where we part company.  The labour party cannot be trusted ,and we have seen this over the years in scotland how they behave and how they backstab people.

I dont want the snp having anything to do with labour at any level. In scotland as i point out to you time and gain your party is in bed with the conservatives at every occassion to stop the snp , so the idea of the snp propping labour up at westminster is a fantasy.

I think it bad for the snp , and scotland , i dont want it to happen and the snp could never trust your party hierarchy to agree to another indyref it they did. The labour party are a british nationalist party who support the union......and it doesnt matter what members like you think on the matter , your party leaders will never contemplate scotland leaving.

You on the english left need to start learning to stand on your own two feet without the scottish irish or welsh holding your hands.

Scotland doesnt exist to prop up the english left , or provide voting fodder for british labour , and to be honest steve i and many millions of scots find it extremely offensive whenever this is insinuated to us.

If labour cant win power in england on their own  , then you dont deserve to be in power because you are weak and inept.

Its down to you to convince your own people in your own country of your left wing politics. If you cannot , then it shows how much you are out of touch politically with your own people.

[srb7677]

abolition of tuition fees,

1997, Labour: "We have no plans to introduce tuition fees".
(introduced tuition fees)

The facts about the history of tuition fees in Scotland are stark and unarguable:

– in 1997 when Labour came to power, higher education was free.

– the Labour government then introduced fees of £1000 a year across the UK, which meant a four-year degree in Scotland suddenly cost £4000.

– in 2000, the Labour-led Scottish Executive replaced said fees with a "graduate endowment", meaning that Scottish students paid £2000 retrospectively towards the cost of their education – half of what it had cost them under Labour's fees system in 1999, but still £2000 more than the £0 they'd been paying in 1997.

In the space of three years, then, while claiming to have "abolished" tuition fees, Labour had in fact increased the cost of a degree in Scotland from zero to £2000. Those are the cold, hard, unyielding truths.

Yet astonishingly, 15 years later, the party's education spokesman in Scotland is still trying to dance on the head of a semantic pin and insist that Labour abolished fees. The assumption, flying in the face of more than a decade of accumulated electoral evidence, appears to be that Scottish voters – including those who had to pay the "endowment" – are simple-minded idiots who can be fooled by a bit of wordplay

I actually agree that this kind of spin is both deplorable and counter-productive. Taking the Scots for idiots is bound to backfire.

Sadly though a certain wing of my party - which I oppose - has long been addicted to spin.

Though you will now no doubt attack me for trying to disassociate myself from it, rather than respecting a point of agreement as Major Sinic would. See the difference?

not at all steve , i respect what you are saying.


...but as i keep saying , all the wings of your party go hand in hand , so while i dont bear you any ill will on a personal level , you are of course politically my enemy.

I have absolutely no wish for any faction of labour to rule scotland and keep us part of your union as mere voting fodder to prop up the english left.

I don't regard you as any kind of personal enemy either, and you are passionate for what you believe in, as am I. As you have no doubt picked up upon, where I stand within Labour is in a state of flux as my exact position is wavering. I haven't yet made up my mind on my chosen path and to a large extent am awaiting developments. This lays me open to criticism for contradictory thinking, but such is my situation right now. I want to believe the Labour party will offer hope to the struggling millions because I cannot se anyone else doing so, at least not outside Scotland. I am reluctant to give up on that hope until I have to. Hence am awaiting developments on policy.

Are you my political enemy? I have thought about that and whilst no doubt most in my party would see you as a political enemy, I don't. I am not ideologically wedded to the union and understand why many in Scotland might have given up on it. I think if the Scots want to go their own way we should let them and do it with the hand of friendship. I see the SNP - and hence you - as potentially people we can and must work with in a hung parliament to serve our mutual interests on policy, including facilitating a referendum on independence. Personally, I would like to see the Scots in some way help to facilitate a progressive government of change for the entire UK, perhaps by the SNP cooperating with us in Westminster, but that is just a personal hope. Hoping for that does not make me see you as a political enemy. In any independence referendum I would rather my party stayed neutral.

[Thomas]

At the same time as Blair was bellowing his education, education, education mantra, Brown was systematically cutting finances to universities to force them to charge tuition fees and increase the percentage of overseas students whose governments were charged far more ...

I know because at the time Moira worked in admin in the admissions dept of our local 'uni' which was also being asset stripped in other ways...

I think it needs a thread on its own to go into in depth the damage the labour party did to the various education systems across the uk john. We certainly have been shouting about labours record over tuition fees etc etc from scottish rooftops over the years , and the scottish public have taken note.

Im just surprised john why the welsh still give labour the time of day.

Doesnt matter what your politics are , left right centre in or out the eu or uk , surely its time for something different?

Has the welsh people lives improved that dramatically under labour to justify their continued dominance of wales for all these years?

Seems to me the welsh are still stuck in tribal voting , voting labour cause their fathers did , and that is a recipe for disaster and decadence and corruption as we in scotland know fine well.

[johnofgwent]

abolition of tuition fees,

1997, Labour: "We have no plans to introduce tuition fees".
(introduced tuition fees)

The facts about the history of tuition fees in Scotland are stark and unarguable:

– in 1997 when Labour came to power, higher education was free.

– the Labour government then introduced fees of £1000 a year across the UK, which meant a four-year degree in Scotland suddenly cost £4000.

– in 2000, the Labour-led Scottish Executive replaced said fees with a "graduate endowment", meaning that Scottish students paid £2000 retrospectively towards the cost of their education – half of what it had cost them under Labour's fees system in 1999, but still £2000 more than the £0 they'd been paying in 1997.

In the space of three years, then, while claiming to have "abolished" tuition fees, Labour had in fact increased the cost of a degree in Scotland from zero to £2000. Those are the cold, hard, unyielding truths.

Yet astonishingly, 15 years later, the party's education spokesman in Scotland is still trying to dance on the head of a semantic pin and insist that Labour abolished fees. The assumption, flying in the face of more than a decade of accumulated electoral evidence, appears to be that Scottish voters – including those who had to pay the "endowment" – are simple-minded idiots who can be fooled by a bit of wordplay

At the same time as Blair was bellowing his education, education, education mantra, Brown was systematically cutting finances to universities to force them to charge tuition fees and increase the percentage of overseas students whose governments were charged far more ...

I know because at the time Moira worked in admin in the admissions dept of our local 'uni' which was also being asset stripped in other ways...

[T00ts]

I know Toots can't help it.. I can imagine her bellowing in a Thatcheresque manner, trying to assert her authority.

It's true I can call on a fairly strong voice when required when trying to teach a dance class with musical accompanyment.  A necessary evil I guess. Fortunately authority wasn't in question. 

[Sheepy]

Lets face it, your problems are convincing the majority of Scots the SNP and from Sturgeons viewpoint the EU is a better bet than the Union. The Labour party are not even in the running.

in or out the eu , anythng is better than your union. We are already polling in the mid 50 per centish , and rising every day sheep.

As soon a s bojo took charge , and started waffling the sweaties wouldnt be allowed to leave , indy support went though the roof.

Pretty much textbook brit nat stuff on how to lose an empire.

It ain't my union by the way, it was cobbled together by a few wealthy and royal types after generations of having us all at it.