A Forum cabinet - just for fun

[Thomas]

Remember back in 2010  , starmers mate milliband told everyone he would bin tuition fees ( and replace them with a graduate tax?)

https://archive.vn/pdrgS

Why I'd bin tuition fees
Ed Miliband

Then reneged on it at the general election , where the plan was dumbed down to merely cut tuition fees down to £6000? Twice what they were in 2010?

You can't trust labour on education or any promises they make.


https://www.publicwhip.org.uk/policy.php?id=1052

Readers might feel entitled to take any Labour proclamation about fees with a very heavy pinch of salt. Under Tony Blair the party promised not to introduce the fees at all, then introduced them, then promised not to increase them but tripled them (a policy both Ed Miliband and Jim Murphy voted for).

[Thomas]

Back in 2008 , the snp government brought in the bill to abolish labours original tuition fees , both the labour party and the conservatives voted against it.

Students will no longer have to pay the graduate endowment fee when they finish university, after MSPs voted to abolish the charge.

Holyrood voted by 67 to 61 in favour of scrapping the one-off charge of £2,289.

Labour and the Conservatives voted against abolition, after they failed to force the Scottish Government to set up a review into university funding.

The labour parties problem is they think people are stupid or have short term memory loss.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7268101.stm

Who knew the Westminster party thinks we are all blithering idiots,

...and their daft supporters. Thatswhy when steve was wafflng about labour abolishing tuition fees , i couldnt help but remind everyone of what they said in 1997 . and what they did after.

How many times over the years have this party done a u turn over their cuddly feel good policies?

Labours problem is they now know everyone realises labours word is meaningless.

....and it is driving them crazy.

[Sheepy]

Back in 2008 , the snp government brought in the bill to abolish labours original tuition fees , both the labour party and the conservatives voted against it.

Students will no longer have to pay the graduate endowment fee when they finish university, after MSPs voted to abolish the charge.

Holyrood voted by 67 to 61 in favour of scrapping the one-off charge of £2,289.

Labour and the Conservatives voted against abolition, after they failed to force the Scottish Government to set up a review into university funding.

The labour parties problem is they think people are stupid or have short term memory loss.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7268101.stm

Who knew the Westminster party thinks we are all blithering idiots,

[Thomas]

Back in 2008 , the snp government brought in the bill to abolish labours original tuition fees , both the labour party and the conservatives voted against it.

Students will no longer have to pay the graduate endowment fee when they finish university, after MSPs voted to abolish the charge.

Holyrood voted by 67 to 61 in favour of scrapping the one-off charge of £2,289.

Labour and the Conservatives voted against abolition, after they failed to force the Scottish Government to set up a review into university funding.

The labour parties problem is they think people are stupid or have short term memory loss.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7268101.stm

[Thomas]

I've no idea what my politics are really, just a burning desire for some semblance of justice in an injust world. Probably no different from what you really want, or what Thomas and many others here really want.

It is different to what i want. Told you before dyno , while i dont necessarily disagree with much of what you say , i do stand by the fact i think you are an idealogical romantic that needs a dose of reality.

I think you are left wing , or centre left if you want to be pedantic .

You seem to be constantly searching for some utopia that doesnt and never will exist , while many of the rest of us are happy to work with what we have .

[Thomas]

abolition of tuition fees,

1997, Labour: "We have no plans to introduce tuition fees".
(introduced tuition fees)

The facts about the history of tuition fees in Scotland are stark and unarguable:

– in 1997 when Labour came to power, higher education was free.

– the Labour government then introduced fees of £1000 a year across the UK, which meant a four-year degree in Scotland suddenly cost £4000.

– in 2000, the Labour-led Scottish Executive replaced said fees with a "graduate endowment", meaning that Scottish students paid £2000 retrospectively towards the cost of their education – half of what it had cost them under Labour's fees system in 1999, but still £2000 more than the £0 they'd been paying in 1997.

In the space of three years, then, while claiming to have "abolished" tuition fees, Labour had in fact increased the cost of a degree in Scotland from zero to £2000. Those are the cold, hard, unyielding truths.

Yet astonishingly, 15 years later, the party's education spokesman in Scotland is still trying to dance on the head of a semantic pin and insist that Labour abolished fees. The assumption, flying in the face of more than a decade of accumulated electoral evidence, appears to be that Scottish voters – including those who had to pay the "endowment" – are simple-minded idiots who can be fooled by a bit of wordplay

[Borg Refinery]

I'm left wing?

Papa wants gunboats installed around the whole border area of the EU, and for a Brexit. He also wants large scale population reduction.

I want to live in an almost-monastic society in the woods of Siberia or Lebanon or somewhere like that in my ideal world.

Neither of us are left-wing, you are speaking for yourself. 

I'd say you are to the "left of centre" though? Would that be fair? Fwiw I think you are one of the most balanced posters on here. You don't seem to have any agendas and you engage others in rational discussion. If you were once left wing, then I'd say you are more the sort of person I remember who voted labour

The reason I stopped voting labour a long time ago, was because it has slowly been taken over by identity and grievance politics, to the point where they are becoming almost in the same category as the Greens in the woke league. I believe in what some would call "left wing" policies - affordable housing, employment protection and minimum wage, yet I also believe in law and order and a strong state - perhaps I'm closer to a model old style Soviet citizen than I think, as Sampan once pointed out 

Me and others like Cromwell being described by SRB as "right wing" is a measure of how far the other way rank and file labour has gone. We are "right wing" by any standard now because Labour has moved a country mile further to the left. Well, to be fair, Cromwell has become Ken Clarke and I've become Alf Garnett 

Anyway, thats my latest "rant" done with. Funny how left wingers get angry and passionate about subjects, while when their opponents do its called going on "rants" 

I've no idea what my politics are really, just a burning desire for some semblance of justice in an injust world. Probably no different from what you really want, or what Thomas and many others here really want.

Sadly, we can never really express our true beliefs, not in words anyway. I think it was Anne Frank who said people can just never say what they truly mean, or words to that effect.

The intensely contradictory (ie fekt up) nature of the world means I often find myself coming back to these pearlsof wisdom by Blaise Pascal...

"It would therefore be a good thing for us to obey laws and customs because they are laws: to know that there is no right and just law to be brought in, that we know nothing about it and should consequently only follow those already accepted. In this way we should never give them up. But the people are not amenable to this doctrine, and thus, believing that truth can be found and resides in laws and customs, they believe them and take their antiquity as a proof of their truth (and not just of their authority, without truth). Thus they obey them but are liable to revolt as soon as they are shown to be worth nothing, which can happen with all laws if they are looked at from a certain point of view."
― Blaise Pascal

"If they [Plato and Aristotle] wrote about politics it was as if to lay down rules for a madhouse."

Another good one;

https://oll.libertyfund.org/quotes/374

Of philosophy he said..

"the whole of Philosophy was not worth a single hour's pain"

[Sheepy]

It has nothing to do with who does or does not support the Labour Party. I have not always supported the Labour Party. And might not do so in the future. Plenty of left wingers at large out there do not support the Labour Party. And Deppity Dawg and Cromwell might well have supported Labour in the past but are hardly left wingers today. The Dawg reads the Daily Fail FFS! You are mistaking political leanings for party allegiance, which is all the more misplaced when referencing past leanings when it is present ones being referred to.

There simply are many more right wingers than left wingers here. That is not a whinge by the way, merely an observation

Sorry steve i completely disagree with you.

Reading this , anyone who is slightly to the right of the hard left is a right winger in your opinion.

...and cromwell not being left wing?

I don't think Cromwell is left wing now no. He has moved to the right as he has gotten older. Though he is not part of the rabid club of right wingers. He is generally reasonable. As is the Dawg, if a bit verbosely ranty on occasion.

But if you don't think the right greatly outnumbers the left on this forum, then can you tell me who the other left wingers are besides Papasmurf and Dynamis? The latter incidentally most of the time doesn't vote Labour, thereby demonstrating that you don't have to vote Labour to be left wing

I'm left wing?

Papa wants gunboats installed around the whole border area of the EU, and for a Brexit. He also wants large scale population reduction.

I want to live in an almost-monastic society in the woods of Siberia or Lebanon or somewhere like that in my ideal world.

Neither of us are left-wing, you are speaking for yourself. 

LOL but you are a remainer looking for another direction Dyno and you are backing Starner in that hope, while using every opportunity to attack the Tories. While bigging Starmer up, if it is any consolation it has all been tried before by smarter people in Westminster.

[Thomas]

again totally agree. Glad it isnt just me noticeing this.

Its like listening to stalin or some other dictator from history portraying his politics and behaviour as moderate as he shepherds all the riff raff , undesireables and politically aware not part of the cult off to the gulags.

Steve is taking the word moderate and redefining what it means to suit his agenda.

I have had my ups and downs with you , and cromwell and many others.........but i dont think at any point in the heat of deabte i have ever insinuated either of you were "right wingers".

Its laughable listening to it.

Thats true! You've called me lots of things over the years Thomas, but never "right wing" 

Seriously though, though we had many disagreements, we each respected the others point of view, even if we disagreed with it.

But consider this - you are  Scottish Nationalist - you believe strongly in your country's right to self determination, you identify strongly with your country, its history and heritage, its culture and its values. You don't have any hang ups about it. We are not all that different in this respect, yet if I were to describe myself as an "English Nationalist", can you imagine the howls of anguish from the left?

This is the bit I struggle with Labour/Left on. The way "Right Wing", or "Nationalist" for instance, are now vilified and used pejoritively. Look at the way Left wingers wish death on Conservatives (no names no pack drill) - ok, all parties have cranks but the party Labour had when Thatcher died, you'd think Pol Pot had died. I mean, I'd describe Borchester as right wing, but he's not an evil Bond Villain....daft auld c**t yes, but villain no 

The labour party despite their protestations are british nationalists , which is why they despise scottish or english nationalism as we know.

I think we discussed the nationalist thing many a time over the years on the old forum , and generally put to the sword the idea all nationalism is evil and bad .

Over the years there have been very few out and out right wingers i have come across on dffering forums. Bit of a difference between small c conservatives and centre right people as you say than what the left rant about when they talk "right wing".

We had emily thornberry and her sneering disgust at white van man in essex.....with the insinuation that he was a nasty right wing evil nationalist , and she did the same thing with the snp.........and now steve tells me the snp are good and labour are copying their policies? We are no longer nasty nationalist tartan tories , but icons for the left!



The smears get made up as they go along , and im the same as you , over the years i have come to despise labour and the british left for what they are. I suppose i am more angry with myself for ever being taken in by them in the first place.

I think the reason they are increasingly becoming more and more angry  , shouty and desperate is the fact they know they are becoming irrelevant to the majority of the voting public.

People just dont listen to them , and when they do , they dont believe a word of the lies that comes out labours mouths.

[DeppityDawg]

again totally agree. Glad it isnt just me noticeing this.

Its like listening to stalin or some other dictator from history portraying his politics and behaviour as moderate as he shepherds all the riff raff , undesireables and politically aware not part of the cult off to the gulags.

Steve is taking the word moderate and redefining what it means to suit his agenda.

I have had my ups and downs with you , and cromwell and many others.........but i dont think at any point in the heat of deabte i have ever insinuated either of you were "right wingers".

Its laughable listening to it.

Thats true! You've called me lots of things over the years Thomas, but never "right wing" 

Seriously though, though we had many disagreements, we each respected the others point of view, even if we disagreed with it.

But consider this - you are  Scottish Nationalist - you believe strongly in your country's right to self determination, you identify strongly with your country, its history and heritage, its culture and its values. You don't have any hang ups about it. We are not all that different in this respect, yet if I were to describe myself as an "English Nationalist", can you imagine the howls of anguish from the left?

This is the bit I struggle with Labour/Left on. The way "Right Wing", or "Nationalist" for instance, are now vilified and used pejoritively. Look at the way Left wingers wish death on Conservatives (no names no pack drill) - ok, all parties have cranks but the party Labour had when Thatcher died, you'd think Pol Pot had died. I mean, I'd describe Borchester as right wing, but he's not an evil Bond Villain....daft auld c**t yes, but villain no 

[Thomas]

Me and others like Cromwell being described by SRB as "right wing" is a measure of how far the other way rank and file labour has gone. We are "right wing" by any standard now because Labour has moved a country mile further to the left. Well, to be fair, Cromwell has become Ken Clarke and I've become Alf Garnett 

again totally agree. Glad it isnt just me noticeing this.

Its like listening to stalin or some other dictator from history portraying his politics and behaviour as moderate as he shepherds all the riff raff , undesireables and politically aware not part of the cult off to the gulags.

Steve is taking the word moderate and redefining what it means to suit his agenda.

I have had my ups and downs with you , and cromwell and many others.........but i dont think at any point in the heat of deabte i have ever insinuated either of you were "right wingers".

Its laughable listening to it.

[Barry]

Did anyone see the thread title - just for fun?
*rolls eyes*

We are having fun, Victor Meldrum. Chill bro 

Down, boy!

[DeppityDawg]

Did anyone see the thread title - just for fun?
*rolls eyes*

We are having fun, Victor Meldrum. Chill bro 

[Thomas]

Did anyone see the thread title - just for fun?
*rolls eyes*

alright barry i take your point, but i couldnt let go the nonsense steve was spouting on page 2 post#27.

If he wishes to carry on discussing it we will take it elsehwere.

[DeppityDawg]

I'm left wing?

Papa wants gunboats installed around the whole border area of the EU, and for a Brexit. He also wants large scale population reduction.

I want to live in an almost-monastic society in the woods of Siberia or Lebanon or somewhere like that in my ideal world.

Neither of us are left-wing, you are speaking for yourself. 

I'd say you are to the "left of centre" though? Would that be fair? Fwiw I think you are one of the most balanced posters on here. You don't seem to have any agendas and you engage others in rational discussion. If you were once left wing, then I'd say you are more the sort of person I remember who voted labour

The reason I stopped voting labour a long time ago, was because it has slowly been taken over by identity and grievance politics, to the point where they are becoming almost in the same category as the Greens in the woke league. I believe in what some would call "left wing" policies - affordable housing, employment protection and minimum wage, yet I also believe in law and order and a strong state - perhaps I'm closer to a model old style Soviet citizen than I think, as Sampan once pointed out 

Me and others like Cromwell being described by SRB as "right wing" is a measure of how far the other way rank and file labour has gone. We are "right wing" by any standard now because Labour has moved a country mile further to the left. Well, to be fair, Cromwell has become Ken Clarke and I've become Alf Garnett 

Anyway, thats my latest "rant" done with. Funny how left wingers get angry and passionate about subjects, while when their opponents do its called going on "rants"