But wait the EU is just a trade body

[Borchester]

Britannia waives the rules.

That is right Gerry. Now, other than sending the Gardai to arrest the UK, what does the EU intend to do about it?

[GerryT]

Protecting it from what, the Provo's still sneaking around bandit country. I can assure you GB isn't going to start blowing people up

Protecting them not it. You do understand the GFA brought peace to NI, stopping both sides from killing each other. What GB is threatening to do is light a fuse in the area and break the GFA and WA. If people do return to killing each other that's totally on GB.
But the treaty is also more than just that, it guarantees anyone bore in NI can be Irish, British or both. It also allows people to move freely on the island without restriction and to work anywhere, trade anywhere.
It is a tricky situation for the UK but it put itself in that position it can dig itself out.

[GerryT]

Well it doesn%u2019t sell anything or make anything, in fact, as an entity it doesn%u2019t exist. The only thing that exists are the 27 countries and they are the only thing making money through buying and selling.

This should be interesting, where does the EU get the vast majority of its cash if not from its members?

Nick, your understanding of the EU is non existent. Of course the money comes from the 27 because the 27 are the EU. It's what the money gets spent on that matters. If you understood that then the EU might start making sense. But I'm not explaining it to you. Go read a book.

[GerryT]

Well everyone was told before the vote it was a UK wide vote not an area by area vote, politicians milked it for their own benefit as usual. The EU saw it as a way of keeping remain alive, which blew up in their face. Oh what a shame.

The EU had zero input in the brexit elections. Unlike the russians who seem to have been all over it.

[GerryT]

I didnt say otherwise. You are making things up again gerry .Go back over the discussion to see the point im making so i dont have to keep repeating myself.

I know what you said, and I disagree. The sos has no real say, he's just a pawn. The people of IRL decide, the procedure and process involves the sos calling for a vote, it's the people that drive the process not the process driving the people. I have to keep repeating that as you don't listen to what I'm saying.

It will if it made clear before any vote takes place to reflect the new reality of brexit.
What part of this are you not getting?

I do get it but you don't get to rewrite the GFA or the WA, there agreed and not for changing unless the UK asks to sit down with the EU and follow the procedures within the agreements. It's not for unilateral changing.

What your not understanding and you need to, is the GFA was brought in to protect the rights of the minority republican community, that was for decades being treated as second class citizens. Their rights were inshrined in that document and can't be voted away. As long as NI is part of the UK, nationalist in NI, no matter how few there are, are protected and have rights under the GFA. 

is that the best you could do on google?
Most irish people know this , and yet you appear again to flounder?

I can guarantee most Irish people wouldn't have a clue about the treaty of windsor. You obviously have no idea about what's thought in History in Ireland. From primary up to the Junior cert or in my day the Inter cert, history is compulsory. You can look at the syllabus if you want, no mention of this verv very important treaty.

https://www.curriculumonline.ie/getmedia/4b95f9d8-a307-4ef0-bbf0-b3b9047f31f0/PSEC03a_History_Curriculum.pdf
https://www.curriculumonline.ie/getmedia/ec03a6f7-5fb3-4bcb-b8bb-5bf3d9f8855b/JCSEC13_History_Syllabus.pdf

Ireland reneged on the treaty of windsor without coming to agreement with any other party so what are you talking about?
The irish high king sat down with  king henry , and signed the treaty , admittedly at swordpoint with bribery and blackmail enforcing him.
Just as the uk prime minsiter sat down in the 21 st century and signed the WA , admittedly at threat of economic warfare , bribery and blackmail enforcing it.

I think you'll find any treaty that's signed under threat of being killed isn't worth the paper it's written on. What we were taught in school was how IRL fought for 800 years to get away from occupation. But you should know that the treaty fell apart because Normans invaded and took the land that the Irish King was to pay taxes on. Then Henry got rid of the Irish king and made his son John lord of Ireland Not really the same thing as IRL broke the treaty now is it.More  like Henry decided to sack the other party to the agreement.

Johnson was not at treat of economic warefare, bribery and blackmail whats that about ? your loosing it now Thomas
The UK decided to leave and the UK has no right to a trade deal. WTO is a trade deal and the UK can trade that way if it wants.

Ireland reneged ,just as england can renege.

IRL didn't renege. England can't renege, your trying to draw a parallel that doesn't exist. But good that your admitting the UK is considering reneging.

The Yookay didnt come to help the irish gerry , as this was 6 centuries before the uk was formed. An irishman should of course know that.

Your being pedantic and you know full well what I meant. And your wrong, the UK wasn't formed until 1922, far more than 6 centuries. A British man should know that.

The principle is more important than the history to show you are of course talking absolutely cac regarding treaties.

Your right the principal is far more important. International law now exists, treaties are more involved than a note on the back of a piece of paper, done at gun point and the UK should consider the damage to it's international standing and reputation.

Britannia waives the rules.

[Nick]

protecting the people of NI with the WA which upholds the GFA

Protecting it from what, the Provo's still sneaking around bandit country. I can assure you GB isn't going to start blowing people up

[Nick]

You'd swear that you think that contributions pay for the running of the EU

Well it doesn't sell anything or make anything, in fact, as an entity it doesn't exist. The only thing that exists are the 27 countries and they are the only thing making money through buying and selling.

This should be interesting, where does the EU get the vast majority of its cash if not from its members?

[Sheepy]

Go off on all the tangents you like Gerry, I just tell you how it is,

The UK is selling NI down the river or trying to. It's the EU and ROI that has stood up for it, protecting the people of NI with the WA which upholds the GFA. Your not happy because the UK can't get a clean brexit as it's been help accountable for once in its history. No squirming out of this one. Frustrating for you I know.

Well everyone was told before the vote it was a UK wide vote not an area by area vote, politicians milked it for their own benefit as usual. The EU saw it as a way of keeping remain alive, which blew up in their face. Oh what a shame.

[Thomas]

It still doesn't change the fact a border poll is a decision for the people on the island of IRL, the SOS decides nothing, he only grants a vote.

I didnt say otherwise. You are making things up again gerry .Go back over the discussion to see the point im making so i dont have to keep repeating myself.

A vote to not reunify doesn't mean a border would go up.

It will if it made clear before any vote takes place to reflect the new reality of brexit.

What part of this are you not getting?

The UK does have a right and a means to get out of a treaty, it must sit down with the parties to the treaty in question and by agreement find a way to set aside the treaty. Like it's been said a thousand times, it can't be set aside or changed unilaterally.
The treaty of windsor 1175? broke down because Norman invaders to Ireland took over lands from the high king of IRL. Of course the UK didn't care much and didn't try coming to help the Irish, so the treaty fell apart. Maybe the UK should have took it up with the Norman invaders. King Henry decided to name his 10yr old son as Lord of all Ireland soon after, so who broke that treaty ?

is that the best you could do on google?

Most irish people know this , and yet you appear again to flounder?

Ireland reneged on the treaty of windsor without coming to agreement with any other party so what are you talking about?

The irish high king sat down with  king henry , and signed the treaty , admittedly at swordpoint with bribery and blackmail enforcing him.

Just as the uk prime minsiter sat down in the 21 st century and signed the WA , admittedly at threat of economic warfare , bribery and blackmail enforcing it.

Ireland reneged ,just as england can renege. The Yookay didnt come to help the irish gerry , as this was 6 centuries before the uk was formed. An irishman should of course know that.

The principle is more important than the history to show you are of course talking absolutely cac regarding treaties.

[GerryT]

( ...and gerry is off to read about irish history to see what he can some back at me on the international treaties ireland has broken. just like you couldnae spell craic , i bet you havnae heard anything about the treaty of windsor , basic irish history teaching or Ard Ri Ruadri Ua Conchobair!)

Google it gerry my anglo remainer friend.

Unfortunatly you haven't listed anything that even closly resembles a treaty. Maybe you should read the irish side of things.
UK history -- we went and helped the backward savage Irish.
Irish history -- the UK came killed and stole.
There was never any room for a treaty whan all the UK wanted was to dominate.

I can honestly say the treaty of windsor was NEVER taught in Irish schools as the invasion of this country was never seen as a treaty but an invasion. Your mixing up english schools.
I do remember the famine being covered at length, the coffin ships and later how the English released UK prisoners onto the streets of Dublin, called them the black and tans and let them rape and kill at will. The good old days

When you do come up with a treaty IRL broke, do let me know.

[GerryT]

You are talking rubbish. You said the people of northern ireland would decide , and i pointed out technically its the sos for ni who decides. Your pal doggy and i went over this last year.
There has been polls showing a majority for reunification now for a couple of years , and yet the sos for ni hasnt called a border poll as the platform leading to calling a border poll in the GFA is vague and meaningless.
As conor  pointed out on the old forum ,  and the brendan heading article i quoted , essentially its down to the sos for ni to make the call ,not the ni people as you suggested , and Johnson could instruct his sos for ni at any time to call a border poll if he so wished.

It still doesn't change the fact a border poll is a decision for the people on the island of IRL, the SOS decides nothing, he only grants a vote. So technically and every other way your wrong on this.  I've not heard a call for a vote in NI, you can be sure when the time is right Sinn Fein will be all over this demanding a vote. Sinn Fein have said the time for a vote might be in 5 yrs. Taken from the GFA
(ii) recognise that it is for the people of the island of Ireland alone, by agreement between the two parts respectively and without external impediment, to exercise their right of self-determination on the basis of consent, freely and concurrently given, North and South, to bring about a united Ireland, if that is their wish, accepting that this right must be achieved and exercised with and subject to the agreement and consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland;

There is also no provision to say in light of brexit ( twenty years after the GFA was signed) a border wouldnt go up in light of the new uk situation regarding the eu.
Im simply saying if this causes the eu and uk difficulty regarding ni , then a border poll to resolve the situation is the obvious answer , and shuts up all dissent one way or the other. Exccept you anti democratic remainers of course.

The EU doesn't have a difficulty regarding NI, it did, but that problem went away when Johnson signed the WA, we could debate the GFA and border provision and how the GFA can't be swept aside to suit Brexit, but that's why the WA was mandatory to the UK getting a trade deal. It totally solidified the spirit of the GFA by allowing the people of NI to choose Irish citizenship and live on the island of IRL with no barriers.
I do however see your point that if the people of NI did seek a border poll and if the result was reunify, that would help GB. but if it didn't we would be left with the situation we are in now. A vote to not reunify doesn't mean a border would go up.

The GFA has been supersceded by brexit. When it was signed , both the uk and ireland were in the eu and the signatories never envisaged a time when either side would be out of the eu. Thats day is approaching , so deal with it.
As barry said to you on another thread , one minute you argue treaties are inviolate when it suits , the next  , you bend them when you want.
Northern ireland is at the mercy of the uk and eu , and whatever they , either or both , decide will happen.
You are merely a small tool in the fight between larger sparring partners.

No the brexit vote does not wipe away the GFA and the UK's legal obligation to uphold it's treaties, which also now includes the WA. The fact the UK is preparing for a sea border would suggest that you need to deal with it. Also your wrong, you may think that NI is at the mercy of the EU but ROI is a member of the EU and the EU will defend it's own. That's good news for NI as the GFA provisions have now been enshrined in the WA so it looks like NI is been protected by the EU. It's GB that would very quickly run rough shot over NI if the EU turned a blind eye. Even if my opion is wrong, what has the EU done to lead you to think otherwise.
And it's not large sparring partners, its one very large player and a small sized island with big notions about itself, living in the past.

totally agree.
You no understandy gerry.
Thats exactly my argument....why let a place like northern Ireland cause any small issues for the uk leaving the eu when eventually it wont be part of the uk anyway?
Ditch it now johnson.!!!

Because what NI wants is so much more important than what GB wants. Nobody really cares what the UK wants. It can have all it want's once that doesn't encroach on what the EU wants.

and all nations have a right to withdraw from an international treaty.
How many international treaties have ireland either reneged on , or withdrawn from over the centuries?
The treaty of windsor 1175?
The treaty of limerick 1537?
The act of 1587?
The two treaties of limerick in 1691?
The treaty of union , and subsequent acts 1801?
Need i go on gerry?
Stop talking shite about breaking international treaties as ireland , the same as many other nations , has broken more international treaties than i have had hot dinners.

The UK does have a right and a means to get out of a treaty, it must sit down with the parties to the treaty in question and by agreement find a way to set aside the treaty. Like it's been said a thousand times, it can't be set aside or changed unilaterally.
The treaty of windsor 1175? broke down because Norman invaders to Ireland took over lands from the high king of IRL. Of course the UK didn't care much and didn't try coming to help the Irish, so the treaty fell apart. Maybe the UK should have took it up with the Norman invaders. King Henry decided to name his 10yr old son as Lord of all Ireland soon after, so who broke that treaty ?
The treaty of limerick 1537? It has been said that "the ink was not dry on the Treaty" before the English broke it—the civil articles were not honoured by the victorious Williamite government.
The act of 1587? Not a treaty but more UK dominance in Ireland and the Irish fighting to try get them out. You wouldn't call that a treaty.
The two treaties of limerick in 1691? Again a surrender treaty after IRL fought for freedom, which was enacted. List the breaches of the treaty, I don't see any clauses been broken, what are they.
The treaty of union , and subsequent acts 1801? That created the UK, and you could say that treaty ended when the UK and ROI sat down after the Easter rising of 1916 and subsequent withdrawal from IRL of the UK. Again no breach of the treaty.

Please do go on, I'd really like you to show where IRL signed a treaty -- willingly --  and not a gun point, "sign or die" UK tactis. Maybe thats what the UK should do with the EU, the good old days and how the UK used to negotiate. The UK may have broken many treaties but alas Ireland didn't because for most of IRL's history has been spent under capture by the UK. How you could in any way thing that was a "Treaty" is beyond me.

Today is very different to centuries ago. Today countries do not break international treaties and international law. But the UK plans on doing that as it heads in the direction of a rogue state. And the UK has the cheek to wag their finger at the Chinese.

[Thomas]

( ...and gerry is off to read about irish history to see what he can some back at me on the international treaties ireland has broken. just like you couldnae spell craic , i bet you havnae heard anything about the treaty of windsor , basic irish history teaching or Ard Ri Ruadri Ua Conchobair!)

Google it gerry my anglo remainer friend.

[GerryT]

Go off on all the tangents you like Gerry, I just tell you how it is,

The UK is selling NI down the river or trying to. It's the EU and ROI that has stood up for it, protecting the people of NI with the WA which upholds the GFA. Your not happy because the UK can't get a clean brexit as it's been help accountable for once in its history. No squirming out of this one. Frustrating for you I know.

[GerryT]

They have. EIRE's bill went up.
It is now a net tax payer too.

Baff you get nearly everything wrong. Contributions are based on a countries GDP, the better you do the more you pay as it's a percentage of your performance. There is no "bill". I could say more but I doubt it would sink in

[GerryT]

When one of the top contributors bails out you pay more regardless of how your economy is doing. Can't wait for the revised contributions to come out, they might have already.

You'd swear that you think that contributions pay for the running of the EU, what countries give is small money to pay for EU institutions that each country needs and it comes cheaper pooling that resourse and secondly for funds to promote growth in poorer regions of the EU.

To put it into context the total cost of the EU for the UK, since it joined is less than what the cost of brexit will be at yr end. You make a meal out of the cost of the EU. And that doesn't include the cost to the UK for the 50,000 customs officials and border infrastructure. Trying to make an argument in favour of brexit with finances is futile, it's been well established that brexit is a financial disaster.