Oh really is that so?

[Thomas]

You said the only reason their negotiating is to get a FTA, but that's not true.

From the uk perspective , of course its true.

The WA was the first step, without it there would be no FTA talks, if it's not honoured there will be no FTA.

Exactly what i am saying? So are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me?

Let me repeat , johnson signed up to the WA as he believed the eu were being sincere about negotiating a FTA , and when it became apparent they were simply stringing him along and had no intention of doing so , then he started saying he was going to rip up the WA much to the eu annoyance.

but the other side will just get on with it.

so again your mask slips , and you hint you "hope" he just gets on with things?

Off the top of my head for the UK in '22, close enough. The first Dail might have sat but it was only those Sinn Fein TD's that weren't in prison. At that time IRL was still under british rule. There was a long road, civil war and more before we became a free country.

22 is close enough?

The republic was an independent country by 1921. You should try and read up , not use wikipedia , on a countries history before claiming to be a citizen of that country gerry.,

The Irish free state which was formed with a constitution in '22 still had an oath of allegiance to the King, Ireland wasn't a free country.

The treaty between lloyd george and the republican government , whose negotiators were led by arthur griffith , was signed over the period of negotiations between june 1921 and december of that same year.

It set up an indpendent irish "free" state wihtin the commonwealth. Do you see the word free gerry?

Thats like saying australia , or canada , new zealand or any other independet country today that has the queen as head of state isnt an independent country. Stop talking cac.

Thats was the basic problem lloyd george had when negotiating the treaty in 1921 , was the fait accompli of irish independence. Do you understand what that means gerry...? somethng that had aleready happened.

It was the new constitution in '37 when Ireland became a free country, a democratic state.

No it wasnt. Everyone recognised the free state as an independent country. For example the olympic federation of ireland was formed in 1918 , and had international recognition by the IOC in 1922.

The free state was already an indpendent country , and what you are simply confusing by googling and using wikipedia is the internal politics of ireland at the time where de valera had split from sinn fein ( originally a pro monarchist party) and de valers went on to form fianna fail , a new republican party , which ad  a major problem with the oath of allegiance to the english crown. When fiannna fail first got votd into power in 1932 with a small majority , de valera began working on a new constitution for ireland , and went to the country in july 1937 asking for the countries approval for the new constitution where he won by 686 thousand votes to 528 thousand.

All that happened in 1937 was the irish constitution changed .

For example the snp are pro monarchist ( with republicans also in the party) and had we won in 2014 , and salmond went on to achieve independence but the queen  remained head of the scottish state , are you seriously trying to say we wouldnt have been indpendent?

You talk some serious nonsense gerry , as well as displaying a complete ignorance of irish history and politics outwith the lady bird book of irish history and politcs and general wikipedia nonsesne.

Ireland is the correct name for this country.

Hang on hang on .!

Ireland is the name of the entire island , or "eire" in irish. It means the land of the parts , with reference to the old five divisions of ireland.

Your ( alleged ) country is the republic , northern ireland , is part of the uk.

If you remember waffling on about the GFA and your ususal wikipedia references , the dail in dublin gave up any claim to northern ireland under the terms of the GFA.,

Calling the republic "Ireland" merely reflects the old claim the republic had to the whole of the island pre 1998.

Do keep up gerry , and when you are trying to impersonate someone  in another country , do try and be a little more realistic and knowledgable.

I have no clue why you put up that clip

,

You said you have no clue what the uk or england wants.

I gave you a list of reasons , (leaving cu , four freedoms  , european courts etc) then you replied with this cac..

I was looking for something a bit more official, not what you think. But what you say above prob is all the UK has, and you think this mess is the EU's fault.

my reply...

I do. The english dont want absorbed into some petty little fledgling empire. They have done the rght thing getting out now.

and you said ..

In your opinion.

and the graphic was to show it wasnt my opinion , it was to show that the majority of english people in the last panelbase poll i saw (52%) still wanted england to stay out of the eu.

[GerryT]

Eh?
When i say johnson and the uk government believed the negotiations were ultimately heading towards a FTA , you come back with yet more waffle which boils down to johnson is stupid and didnt know the details?
The proof of what he is doing backs up what im saying not you?

You said the only reason their negotiating is to get a FTA, but that's not true. The reason the EU sat down with the UK was two strands. One to agree the WA and secondly to agree the political declaration. A FTA would be a bonus but in no way was it the only reason. The WA and PD was prob a very low priority for the UK as it dragged it's heels, delayed and effectively left no time to talk trade. The UK would have liked to skip to trade but the EU's position was if we can't agree the WA and can't set a frame work for a FTA then there's no point in starting trade talks.
Well Johnson told everyone he got an oven ready deal and fixed Mays mistakes. He's not a details man, his oven ready deal is now causing a lot of problems.

I didn't say it was . You are again making things up. I'm saying he believed it was part of the path ahead to get to a FTA .

The WA was the first step, without it there would be no FTA talks, if it's not honoured there will be no FTA. The WA as valid whether a FTA is agreed or not, Johnson makes shapes that he can abandon the WA, but in reality he won't.  Like when he said there would be no Border in the Irish Sea, how he would tell the EU to get stuffed and then he quickly went about organise the border.

No , johnson is doing the right thing. Rip up the WA , and hard brexit in 14 weeks.  Then take it from there.

I know that's what he's saying out one side of his lying mouth, but the other side will just get on with it.

You need to stop reading wikipedia gerry , to inform you of irish history old son.
The current uk came into existence in 1920 due to the fourth irish home rule act. The northern ireland parliament came into being in may 1920 , and the dail eireann first sat in jan 21st 1919.
Subsequent treaties , such as lloyd georges treaty with the irish revolutionary government in 1921 was that partition , irish republican independence and the formation of the uk as it stands now was already a fait accompli.

Off the top of my head for the UK in '22, close enough. The first Dail might have sat but it was only those Sinn Fein TD's that weren't in prison. At that time IRL was still under british rule. There was a long road, civil war and more before we became a free country.

Ireland isnt a country mate , its the name of an island that is currently two seperate sovereign areas.
The republic essentially became independent in 1919, and this was made legal when the irish revolutionary delegation signed the article of agreement in decemebr 1921. That gave the republic independence within the british commonwealth as a dominion called the free state.......which it left in 1937 officially titled as a republic.

The Irish free state which was formed with a constitution in '22 still had an oath of allegiance to the King, Ireland wasn't a free country. It was the new constitution in '37 when Ireland became a free country, a democratic state. This is when Ireland became free and Eire was the name of the country, or in english Ireland. But not all ties to the UK were broke, that didn't happen to '49 when Eire or Ireland became a republic and all ties to the monarch was cut. But Art4 of the constitution states the name of our country is Ireland, the country is described as the Republic or Ireland, but you can say Ireland (the most accurate term), ROI or Eire.  The constitution laid claim to 32 counties, the full island and the 6 NI counties were seen as having a invading country occupying the area. That claim was removed in '98 with the GFA.
Ireland is the correct name for this country. And as any Irish man would know, when asked where he's from he would say Ireland, not the republic of Ireland. Ask any Irish man what's the name of his country and he'll say Ireland not ROI.  But ask an Irish man about some poxy british treaty forced on Ireland over 800yrs ago and he'll laugh at you.

not my opinion mate.

I have no clue why you put up that clip, you said the EU was an Empire. I said in your opinion and that's all it is. Your opinion, not based on fact or any substance of fact.

[Thomas]

Johnson has proven he's not a details man, if you don't know that your alone.

Eh?

When i say johnson and the uk government believed the negotiations were ultimately heading towards a FTA , you come back with yet more waffle which boils down to johnson is stupid and didnt know the details?

The proof is in what Johnson is doing.

The proof of what he is doing backs up what im saying not you?

The WA has nothing to do with a future trade deal.

I didnt say it was . You are again making things up. Im saying he believed it was part of the path ahead to get to a FTA .

The UK needs to lower it's expectations, inline with it's now position in the world order.

No , johnson is doing the right thing. Rip up the WA , and hard brexit in 14 weeks.

Then take it from there.

No the UK came into existence in 1922, I never said that's when Ireland became a country

You need to stop reading wikipedia gerry , to inform you of irish history old son.

The current uk came into existence in 1920 due to the fourth irish home rule act. The northern ireland parliament came into being in may 1920 , and the dail eireann first sat in jan 21st 1919.

Subsequent treaties , such as lloyd georges treaty with the irish revolutionary government in 1921 was that partition , irish republican independence and the formation of the uk as it stands now was already a fait accompli.

Really IRL came an independent country in 1937.

Ireland isnt a country mate , its the name of an island that is currently two seperate sovereign areas.

The republic essentially became independent in 1919, and this was made legal when the irish revolutionary delegation signed the article of agreement in decemebr 1921. That gave the republic independence within the british commonwealth as a dominion called the free state.......which it left in 1937 officially titled as a republic.

In your opinion.

not my opinion mate.

[GerryT]

Waiting while the UK does nothing.

And it waits while Hungary, Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovakia do even less.

The EU is good at waiting, probably because it can't do much else.

The EU is ready to talk with the UK, but the UK hasn't decided what it wants. Meanwhile the EU has moved on to other things, a deal with the UK would be great, but it's not critical

[GerryT]

prove it?
The only reason the uk and eu are actually talking and negotiating is to try and reach an agreement on FT.
The eu have strung may , and now johnson  , along for four half years , but now johnson is calling their bluff , they and you dont like it.
Good on him i say.

Johnson has proven he's not a details man, if you don't know that your alone. The proof is in what Johnson is doing. Telling everyone that the WA is a great in for the UK, it's an oven ready deal. When it's actually only dealing with settling your bill, NI having full access to the EU CU and being in the UK CU, maintaining the CTA. The WA has nothing to do with a future trade deal. That's Just more bull made up by Johnson for signing the WA.
The UK is the one dragging it's heels, about turns, agreeing things and then un-agreeing them. Not showing up prepared and lying alot. The UK needs to lower it's expectations, inline with it's now position in the world order.
I hear the UK now has 2 internal borders, one in the Irish sea and now one in Kent, the land of 7,000 lorries, nice one Johnson.

No you havent. You freely admit you dont know anything about it ( or most irish people you claim) and you didnt even know when your own country ( allegedly ) came into existence.
The breaking , reneging , riping up , call it what you will , of international treaties has been a constant throughout history.

No the UK came into existence in 1922, I never said that's when Ireland became a country. Really IRL came an independent country in 1937.

I do. The english dont want absorbed into some petty little fledgling empire. They have done the rght thing getting out now.

In your opinion.  The EU isn't an empire and never will be. It's 27 countries making decisions together, you don't get it, prob never will.
Will you ever stop focusing everything onto the EU. The EU is not to blame for anything that happened to the EU. The UK has always been an independent country, it decided on it's own to joing the EU. It wasn't forced into anything, it wasn't held at gun point and it wasn't held there. The UK could have left at any point, it was part to every decision the EU made with it's partners.
The UK has been in decline since the 1st world war, it was an empire but those days are gone. It needs to learn how to do things for itself rather than taking from the countries it controlled.
It's pathetic that you and many like you are still blaming the EU. The UK can't negotiate a deal-it's the EU's fault. The UK signed the GFA-it's the EU's fault it won't let the UK ignore it's commitments. The UK signed the WA-it's the EU's fault for being a bully, when there's no evidence of being a bully. We have a 7,000 lorry queue and two internal borders-It's the EU's fault for not giving us SM/CU access for nothing and abandoning their core principals.
When you understand that the UK has always been in full control you'll stop blaming everything on others outside the UK and start to hold those within your own country accountable, then you might get a got that does it's job. You do know you could have left at any point in the past 40 yrs, no one was keeping you there, the door was always open.

[Thomas]

You can join others in an echo chamber slagging off the EU and agreeing with each other.

its a feckin large echo chamber of millions of people across the uk gerry.

[Thomas]

Not trying to prove anything. It's a discussion forum and I have a different view to most on here.

should you no be back working at hmrc mate?

This never ending supply of sock puppets  dressed up as foreign nationals , ( check ma ip address .....lmfao....)who just happend to target this and our old forum ( unusually out of all the forums i frequent)giving us the new labour pro eu view of the world.

Frustration must really be getting to you !

[Thomas]

That's not what he believed,

prove it?

The only reason the uk and eu are actually talking and negotiating is to try and reach an agreement on FT.

The eu have strung may , and now johnson  , along for four half years , but now johnson is calling their bluff , they and you dont like it.

Good on him i say.

I've addressed your false accusations

No you havent. You freely admit you dont know anything about it ( or most irish people you claim) and you didnt even know when your own country ( allegedly ) came into existence.

The breaking , reneging , riping up , call it what you will , of international treaties has been a constant throughout history.

and you think this mess is the EU's fault.

I do. The english dont want absorbed into some petty little fledgling empire. They have done the rght thing getting out now.

Less than 2 weeks to go and it's all over.

Brilliant.

Party time.

[GerryT]

What are you actually trying to prove on this forum, Gerry?

Not trying to prove anything. It's a discussion forum and I have a different view to most on here. I live in a country that is predominately pro EU, If i'm going to discuss Brexit then no better place than with people from the UK. Of course we won't agree but isn't that the point.

I'm not sure, but I assume you are here to spread the gospel of bringing Europeans ever closer together, something the Brits have decided they don't want?
Is it the Communist policy of spreading wealth across a huge area of 500 million, making the richer poorer, and the poorer richer, whilst paying the politicians like Ursula over €28,000 a month?
Is it the policy to erase borders and water down national identities, whilst strengthening the protectionism of a larger bloc of countries?

I don't believe in communism either, I could start arguing that the EU is more democratic than the UK, a country that has a class system and gives it's power to a bunch of toffs, but your view of the EU is very different. The EU does invest in the poorer regions of the EU which is something the UK should have done back home, isn't that the right thing to do, help people to help themselves.

Whatever your intention is here, I'm not buying it. I voted to leave after giving the matter consideration and wavering.
After 4.5 years of waiting for implementation, I'm so glad I did vote to leave. Yes we have left, but so far it is BRINO. It will be a true exit come Hogmonay.
You are wasting your time preaching to us here.

You don't have to engage if you don't want to. You can join others in an echo chamber slagging off the EU and agreeing with each other.
The UK has a past time of slagging the EU, it's a pity the euromyths site has been closed down but it listed thousands and thousands of lies the UK media and politicians has told about the EU. People believed this and why wouldn't they, when a politician or newspaper says the EU is banning bendy bananas it would be right to think that's a bit nuts. But its a lie like thousands of other things written about the EU, such as how much the EU costs the UK, etc.

[GerryT]

They say we can have an FTA.
Then they say:

Have you agrreed to let us have your fish?

EU have asked for access, the UK can always say no. But the EU can say without that we're not interested in giving the UK full access to our 450m 18T market. That is negotiation.

Have you agreed to free movement of people?

This is not been looked for by the EU, so no problem.

Have you agreed to the mythical level playing field?

This was brougt up during the WA and it formed part of the political declaration. The UK agreed to both, so again your wrong.

Have you deposited the 40 billion into Brussels bank.com?

No because it's more like 30b now and you haven't sent it over yet, bt you will. You owe that money, its not a gift.

No. OK - see you in 15 days.
That's not negotiation.

15 days is too late, EU has been telling the UK it needs a deal by the end of Sept to get it ratified by the 27 countries. The UK as usual dragging it's heels and thinking Dec is time enough.

[Barry]

What are you actually trying to prove on this forum, Gerry?

I'm not sure, but I assume you are here to spread the gospel of bringing Europeans ever closer together, something the Brits have decided they don't want?
Is it the Communist policy of spreading wealth across a huge area of 500 million, making the richer poorer, and the poorer richer, whilst paying the politicians like Ursula over €28,000 a month?
Is it the policy to erase borders and water down national identities, whilst strengthening the protectionism of a larger bloc of countries?

Whatever your intention is here, I'm not buying it. I voted to leave after giving the matter consideration and wavering.
After 4.5 years of waiting for implementation, I'm so glad I did vote to leave. Yes we have left, but so far it is BRINO. It will be a true exit come Hogmonay.

You are wasting your time preaching to us here.

[Nick]

No more extensions for the UK no matter how many more times it asks

Oh no, what are we going to do. That only leaves us with 7 billion people to trade with. 😭

Why did we ever leave that 430 million? 😭 😭


2 things come out of that statement Gerry.
1 you don't understand why Brexit happened
2 you're a complete Euro barnpot.

Until you understand point 1 it is pointless discussing this with you.

[Borchester]

Waiting while the UK does nothing.

And it waits while Hungary, Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovakia do even less.

The EU is good at waiting, probably because it can't do much else.

[GerryT]

You are right of course. The EU doesn't negotiate it is a misnomer. What is worse is that they feign talks while all the time professing to be upright and straight forward. I cannot believe the naivety of those who trust them.

The EU compromised on the NI issue, allowing NI to access to the EU SM while not being in the SM. It hasn't done that for any other country in the world. WHat has the UK compromised on. The EU is waiting for the UK to show up with some info, their sitting there, well prepared and waiting, patiently. Waiting for the UK to give details on UK regulation so the EU can certify for 3rd country status. Waiting while the UK does nothing.

[papasmurf]

Go on, show a couple examples of the EU bullying the UK

Quite, it is the UK that has a reputation, for waiving the rules.