What new parties would you like?

[T00ts]

You do know Thatcher refuted her own legacy don't you, sometime in 1993 she went on telly and basically said she expected the rich to be less greedy, and was 'sorry' that it hadn't worked out differently.

I see nothing wrong in believing your fellow citizens are inherently fair but, later being disappointed in the failings of some.
As a counter argument it was a fact that before Thatcher came to power 1979 the country was so different to today that it seems almost anachronistic: eg, it was illegal to put an extension lead on your phone, for example (you had to wait six weeks for a telephone extention instead); there was only one, state-approved, answering machine available, and there were limited "range" of phones.
Early Thatcher instigated many positive advances that too many of the dyed in the wool Luddite Left fought tooth and nail against...

yes, but those who paid for prescriptions paid twenty pence, at a time a pint of beer cost forty twopence, and a water board, electricity board and gas board chairman could expect a salary and pensions package hardly more than that of a medium sized tescos. And a brand new three bed terraced house pretty much anywhere outside london could be had for roughly two and a half times a science graduate's starting salary. And the rent tribunals and council housing meant that social housing was actually affordable as opposed to affordable on an MP's salary.

Sorry Patman, the destruction that bitch wreaked was not worth the right to buy and connect your own mickey mouse phone to the network. And none were as cool as my push button trimphone anyway

It's true it was a very different time but what particular destruction/s are you thinking of?

[johnofgwent]

You do know Thatcher refuted her own legacy don't you, sometime in 1993 she went on telly and basically said she expected the rich to be less greedy, and was 'sorry' that it hadn't worked out differently.

I see nothing wrong in believing your fellow citizens are inherently fair but, later being disappointed in the failings of some.
As a counter argument it was a fact that before Thatcher came to power 1979 the country was so different to today that it seems almost anachronistic: eg, it was illegal to put an extension lead on your phone, for example (you had to wait six weeks for a telephone extention instead); there was only one, state-approved, answering machine available, and there were limited "range" of phones.
Early Thatcher instigated many positive advances that too many of the dyed in the wool Luddite Left fought tooth and nail against...

yes, but those who paid for prescriptions paid twenty pence, at a time a pint of beer cost forty twopence, and a water board, electricity board and gas board chairman could expect a salary and pensions package hardly more than that of a medium sized tescos. And a brand new three bed terraced house pretty much anywhere outside london could be had for roughly two and a half times a science graduate's starting salary. And the rent tribunals and council housing meant that social housing was actually affordable as opposed to affordable on an MP's salary.

Sorry Patman, the destruction that bitch wreaked was not worth the right to buy and connect your own mickey mouse phone to the network. And none were as cool as my push button trimphone anyway

[Borg Refinery]

My priest has more than once offered to suspend me from the church bell, semi jokingly but with some anger.

I couldn't help adding it would do wonders for my circulation and you'd have a lovely view over hastings.

But would you have considered yourself tolled off...?

I'd have run like the clappers.

That was an interesting mental picture!   

That's what happens in Wales (or Kent) when you get too close with the sheep or other local wildlife. 

[T00ts]

My priest has more than once offered to suspend me from the church bell, semi jokingly but with some anger.

I couldn't help adding it would do wonders for my circulation and you'd have a lovely view over hastings.

But would you have considered yourself tolled off...?

I'd have run like the clappers.

That was an interesting mental picture!   

[Barry]

My priest has more than once offered to suspend me from the church bell, semi jokingly but with some anger.

I couldn't help adding it would do wonders for my circulation and you'd have a lovely view over hastings.

But would you have considered yourself tolled off...?

I'd have run like the clappers.

[T00ts]

My priest has more than once offered to suspend me from the church bell, semi jokingly but with some anger.

I couldn't help adding it would do wonders for my circulation and you'd have a lovely view over hastings.

But would you have considered yourself tolled off...?

More likely w rung out! 

[patman post]

My priest has more than once offered to suspend me from the church bell, semi jokingly but with some anger.

I couldn't help adding it would do wonders for my circulation and you'd have a lovely view over hastings.

But would you have considered yourself tolled off...?

[Borg Refinery]

It is a bit like when you are in church and the priest says that you are all sinners and you think am I really? And you are secretly pleased that you still have it in you, but of course the priest may be referring to that lucky sod behind you.

It is all a question of how you care to interpret these things.

If ever we are in church at the same time I must make sure where I sit!

My priest has more than once offered to suspend me from the church bell, semi jokingly but with some anger.

I couldn't help adding it would do wonders for my circulation and you'd have a lovely view over hastings.

[Borchester]

It isn't all wrong as an institution but Thomas is right the SNP have proved there can be breakthroughs........that all depends on people not voting as their parents always did and we've seen that with the fall of the red wall.

In 2005 I voted for the SNP, which would have surprised their canvasser, who effectively told me to take my Sassenach vote and shove it where the sun did not shine which was and indeed, still is, most of Scotland.

Since then the SNP appears to have raised its game, started listening to the electors and done quite well for itself. Meanwhile the Labour party refuses to play any game unless all the players are one legged ethnics, can't be bothered with the electorate because it thinks that the suffrage should be restricted to media types with degrees from the University of Fairyland and one way and another, is not doing so well.

[papasmurf]

we've seen that with the fall of the red wall.

Temporary fall of the Red Wall.

[cromwell]

Any realignment of British politics and the breaking through of new parties is made extremely difficult by the straight jacket of FPTP. For effective new parties to emerge we first need electoral reform.

I think many people agree with electoral reform , but the question is how do we achieve it?

You labour party had thirteen years to bring about electoral reform. They have been talking about abolishing or drastically reforming the lords for over a century  , yet have done little to nothing except feather the FPTP bed in their interests.

Electoral reform will never ever happen in a million years while the english public continue to vote lab/tory.

I say english public as england makes up 82% of westminster seats , and obviously i hope my country is long gone before it happens.

For effective new parties to emerge we first need electoral reform.

This is nonsense ,and the snp have proved it nonsense.

England is more than capable of producing new parties before any electoral reform happens. UKIP were on the verge of breakthrough before the tories stole their wind.

I predict as england sinks further and further , eventually a new party offering something different will break through and smash lab/tory tennis at westminster.

I often think of Westminster as pure theatre held in a cosy club,the show of reform has only resulted in an ever larger HoL and a HoC which IMO has too many MP's for what is required.

It isn't all wrong as an institution but Thomas is right the SNP have proved there can be breakthroughs........that all depends on people not voting as their parents always did and we've seen that with the fall of the red wall.

[Thomas]

There are those of us within Labour who support electoral reform. And many others prepared to concede it in the interests of intra-party cooperation in a hung parliament. Winning that argument in Labour, then have Labour leading in a hung parliament, is our best chance of electoral reform, which in turn is our best chance of a remaking of British politics that does not take 5 or 6 decades.

rubbish.

You are being inconsitent here steve.

You insinuate you have no say over labour policy , and have to wait and see what starmer announces before giving him further support , but here you somehow try and spin certain labour members support electoral reform as though ordinary grassroots members will actually have a say on it.?

The labour party leadership will not tolerate any electoral reform. The lords being a case in point , a century and counting and you have done nothing to reform the lords in any meaningfull way , yet all we hear is give us one more chance , next time it will be different we promise.

You must think people are feckin daft.!

[Thomas]

The SNP took decades before they achieved critical mass, in spite of being aided and abetted in their rise by Thatcher, New Labour coming on all Tory, and the Lib Dems jumping into bed with the Tories. England cannot afford to wait that long.

See this is nonsense. This is nothing more than your warped reinterpretation of history .

Of course the snp took decades to get to where they are. They didnt start off at the peak of indy support  , they started off as a party back in the thirties at the peak of the british identity in scotland.

They rose and fell over the decades , with many false dawns before finally cracking FPTP.

How were they aided and abetted with thatcher?

See this again as i say is your reinterpretation that historically scotland was all lovey dovey with labour , and thatcher then came along and sickened scotland with the union. Its simplistic nonsense.

Labour spent the entire 1980`s decades trying and for a while successfully blaming the snp for bringing down the labour government that led to thatcher.

You talk about the lib dems jumping into bed with the tories , yet somehow fail to mention the critical fact labour jumped into bed with the tories and continue to do so. So you are very much the architect of your own woes  to a degree in scotland.

Without making this into a history lesson on political develpment in scotland over the last century , why cant england afford to wait that long?

Scotland has waited 300+ years for independence , and as i often say , the indy movement has been constantly there in one way or another since the union of 1707.

You should be out starting a new party to suit your left wing views than sitting lamenting england cant wait and keep trusting labour with your vote and membership.

[Nalaar]

"You" refers to any individual, not you specifically

Sure. I thought that was the case. But I was just clarifying.

What you've written is not entirely clear, but I get the jist. Maybe you could expand? It's not often you and I exchange views, so I'm practicing what I wrote here

Sure, I'll try and expand on a new thread either this evening or tomorrow. My communication of the ideas is probably poor, but it something I've only been aware of myself for a few years and my trying to simplify what I know will almost inevitably lead to some incoherence.

[T00ts]

It is a bit like when you are in church and the priest says that you are all sinners and you think am I really? And you are secretly pleased that you still have it in you, but of course the priest may be referring to that lucky sod behind you.

It is all a question of how you care to interpret these things.

If ever we are in church at the same time I must make sure where I sit!