Unconscious Bias Doesn't exist per Tory MPs

[Borchester]

Well call it what you like,unconscious bias or never judge a book by its cover ( or colour in this next case) but when I read things like this you wonder at the human race and why some people react the way they do
https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-54238642

Quite right Ollie.

A black guy tries to bundle a screaming white kid into his car and a concerned bystander intervenes. There was a misunderstanding, but as I am sure you will be the first to agree, the lass acted in an extremely public spirited fashion and BBC should organise a public whip round and buy the lady a bunch of flowers and a box of chocolates.

But sadly, that is not Auntie's style.

[T00ts]

Well call it what you like,unconscious bias or never judge a book by its cover ( or colour in this next case) but when I read things like this you wonder at the human race and why some people react the way they do
https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-54238642

My friend's daughter (white) has married a man (black) and lives in USA. They have adopted an entire family of 7 black children aged 2 up to about 15. On top of that they foster others and at one point early this year had 14 altogether. Some were white some mixed race and others black. It sounds crazy and I am always amazed when I hear their story. Since BLM they have chosen to home school because they are becoming a little frightened by what they see as a backlash against the black population. They are fairly wealthy but that makes no difference. My friend worries a lot and her daughter who moved to US just before they married is sometimes quite frightened for her boys. I don't think they feel it's an unconscious bias.

[cromwell]

Well call it what you like,unconscious bias or never judge a book by its cover ( or colour in this next case) but when I read things like this you wonder at the human race and why some people react the way they do
https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-54238642

[Borg Refinery]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-54281111

I've heard several Tory MPs take to the airwaves to say that they will refuse to undertake unconscious bias training as it doesn't exist and it's a brainwashing marxist plot.

Perhaps they should try telling this to the barrister in this story (and the people in countless other similar incidents every day).

It did strike me unfortunately that anyone who claims that it doesn't exist, is probably the person who is absolutely in the most need of it, and also perhaps some general education given that the clue is in the word "unconscious".

I have been on several of those courses and even helped set one or two up.The basic premise is that men are giving women a shit deal and if the girlies were black then they were getting a shit deal with  cherry on the top.

All good fun. We got a day off to attend (which had to be better than working) and as often as not the lady instructors seemed to think that we were taking notice.

Inspector Javert reminds me of the music union boss interviewed about the miming ban on top of the pops in the 70's. Completely oblivious to what was really going on and expecting his "really quite somewhat forceful rhetoric" to win out against nonplussed bands who simply don't care one way or the other.

[Borchester]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-54281111

I've heard several Tory MPs take to the airwaves to say that they will refuse to undertake unconscious bias training as it doesn't exist and it's a brainwashing marxist plot.

Perhaps they should try telling this to the barrister in this story (and the people in countless other similar incidents every day).

It did strike me unfortunately that anyone who claims that it doesn't exist, is probably the person who is absolutely in the most need of it, and also perhaps some general education given that the clue is in the word "unconscious".

I have been on several of those courses and even helped set one or two up.The basic premise is that men are giving women a shit deal and if the girlies were black then they were getting a shit deal with  cherry on the top.

All good fun. We got a day off to attend (which had to be better than working) and as often as not the lady instructors seemed to think that we were taking notice. 

[DeppityDawg]

Like Nelson Mandela for example?

Nelson Mandela? You mean the man whose wife and followers murdered rural police officers and government officials by setting fire to car tyres filled with petrol tied around their victims necks? Sure, he was a lawyer. What of it?

Mind you, this post clearly demonstrates a different thing which is conscious rather than unconscious bias against all lawyers, and is therefore rather ironic given the point being made.

I'm sure those (predominantly well educated, white middle class) lawyers will suffer all sorts of adverse affects because some old bloke in a northern town who likes a bet and a pint or three, thinks they're the old school tie brigade - but ironic? No, I don't think so Javert.

See, I don't pretend to be some bastion of morality, and never have. There is nothing unconscious about most of my biases, they are perfectly conscious. Like my dislike of middle class liberals like you. I sometimes try to fight it, but you know, every time you put pudgy little fingers to keyboard you remind me again why I'm always destined to lose that fight 

[Javert]

The example used is of the legal system and "barristers", lawyers etc. Basically, the legal profession. If ever there was a profession steeped in prejudice, snobbery and "old school ties", then that's it. And that isn't unconscious bias, its conscious. They are snobby ***s. If you don't tick the right boxes, black white or fecking sky blue pink, you don't get in, end of. Still, I reckon Javert has never been near a court, let alone as a defendant, in all his born days, so he wouldn't know Jack

Like Nelson Mandela for example?

Mind you, this post clearly demonstrates a different thing which is conscious rather than unconscious bias against all lawyers, and is therefore rather ironic given the point being made.

[Javert]

Very well.

What would you say to Thomas's articles then?

I don't have access to the FT.

The other one, what I think is that the premise of that article is that the training and measures taken are somehow removing diversity and trying to brainwash everyone in being the same.

Any unconscious bias training I've seen has not been attempting that - it is attempting to be a starting point to get people to understand that unconscious bias exists in everybody and we are all prone to it, and it should not be focussed only on racial prejudice or any one type of discrimination.  This then should be simply a starting point for a discussion about how to attempt that the organisation is making decisions based on rational merit and not based on unconscious prejudice of any kind.

Any kind of unconscious bias education should be the starting point for future conversations rather than a tick box quick fix - which is actually what I think he is saying in last paragraph after all of the clickbait stuff.

[Borg Refinery]

Confirmation bias is merely a fancy feckin left wing liberal bullshit word for prejudice , and yer prejudice exists.

Indeed, it does exist. The poor female barrister that was subjected to such an incredible display of prejudice; she was treated like shite. And she shouldn't have to go through that.

We need a better way of combating prejudice, because we can't just accept it exists, and say to people: "shut up and live with it" (I'm not suggesting you are); this BS unconscious bias training doesn't work and we need new solutions, but I have no idea where to start?

In south korea you get voyeurs who enjoy spying on men and women shoving spycams in toilets (just weird) but women are treated like shit there... you'd think these weirdies would have day jobs beyond pro spy instead of being creepy little pervo doggos, but it seems not- anyway, the south korean govt brought in sweeping legislation to rule that out, and it really helped. Every society has unique, bizarre and complex problems that need ironing out and bespoke solutions are required.

Maybe Inspector Javert will use his considerable knowledge where he (and I along with him due to a RIF fail ("Reading Is Fundamental") mistook 0.8 for 8% and tell us how to fix this.

[DeppityDawg]

Sounds like yet more liberal left guff if you ask me. Javert , do i need to take a knee before posting this?

Absolutely Rob Roy - just a few things to add

The example used is of the legal system and "barristers", lawyers etc. Basically, the legal profession. If ever there was a profession steeped in prejudice, snobbery and "old school ties", then that's it. And that isn't unconscious bias, its conscious. They are snobby ***s. If you don't tick the right boxes, black white or fecking sky blue pink, you don't get in, end of. Still, I reckon Javert has never been near a court, let alone as a defendant, in all his born days, so he wouldn't know Jack

The day I'll go on an "unconscious bias" course, is the day snotty Liberals also have to go on one for using terms like "white privilege" and "toxic masculinity" - whats the bias difference between automatically assuming someone who is white is privileged, and someone who is black being a "defendant"

I mean, I've been mistaken for lots of things in my life, as I'm sure you have too ( ) but I'm sure I never had a week off work because of exhaustion over it 

[Thomas]

This is what I call "doing a Javert" -"would you consider that to be an optimal way to run your company?"

No I wouldn't and I suggested nothing like that...

..earlier I said that unconscious bias exists but the solutions being used only make the problem worse.

yep thats doing a javert...something he is famous for on this forum.

[Thomas]

but that's not what these Tory MPs were saying - they were claiming that unconscious bias doesn't exist.

... and who says this then javert?

From everything i have read , the 40 tories are questioning pandering to the woke agenda , with some claiming its a waste of taxpayers money and the science behind the training is extremely shaky as you admit.

Who says it doesnt exist?

Confirmation bias is merely a fancy feckin left wing liberal bullshit word for prejudice , and yer prejudice exists.

#the question these tories mps and others seem to be asking is wether getting some social worker type into a conference room at the taxpeyers expense to lecture mps in general about prejudice is a worthwile use of taxpayers money , never mind does it actually feckin work.

'WOKE AGENDA' '40' Tory MPs refuse to take part in Parliament's 'unconscious' bias training

DOZENS of Tory MPs are refusing to take part in Parliament's 'unconscious bias' training - accusing the Commons authorities of "pandering to the woke agenda"

But up to 40 Tory MPs from the right-leaning European Research Group have dubbed themselves the 'Common Sense Group' and are refusing to take part.

One of the MPs who is snubbing the workshop told The Times: "I would really rather gouge my eyes out with a blunt stick than sit through that Marxist, snake oil crap."

Tory MP for Ipswich Tom Hunt said: "Whoever is pushing this forward now is trying to pander to the woke agenda — I won't be.

"I don't think the vast majority of my constituents would want me to waste two hours on a pointless unconscious bias session that will have no effectiveness whatsoever."

Fellow Tory Ben Bradley said the seminars would echo the "kind of nonsense language that we keep hearing around things like the Black Lives Matter agenda"

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12732923/tory-mps-refuse-unconscious-bias-training/

[papasmurf]

Perhaps I didn't explain well enough. The programme was exactly what you are talking about. It was about a school which took an Unconscious Bias programme organised in USA schools and the originator of the course 'taught' it in a UK school. The kids were segregated for a part of the teaching programme. It was a 2 part series as I remember not that long ago.

Too much cultural difference.  Some years ago I took a series of tests that just did not transport well from America to the UK.
The language differences rendered some of the tests unintelligible.

[T00ts]

I watched the TV programme showing how the kids responded to this very carefully and was shocked. Not only did it create 2 separate groups to be taught but forced those who were mixed race/Asian to ask for their own group because they realised that they didn't fit into either category. It was the 'privileged whites' surrounded by predominately black teachers that felt belittled and were scared to voice any opinions. The agenda was not all kids are equal but that non-whites were automatically under-privileged. The visits to their homes proved that not to be true. The 'training' is warped.

If that is anything like what is being rolled out then it needs careful oversight by those who don't have an agenda.

Sorry but I've no idea what you mean - my OP was about unconscious bias - I'm not aware of TV programs about children being segregated in schools so I couldn't really comment further on that.

Perhaps I didn't explain well enough. The programme was exactly what you are talking about. It was about a school which took an Unconscious Bias programme organised in USA schools and the originator of the course 'taught' it in a UK school. The kids were segregated for a part of the teaching programme. It was a 3 part series as I remember not that long ago.

'The school that tried to end racism'

[Borg Refinery]

This is what I call "doing a Javert" -"would you consider that to be an optimal way to run your company?"

No I wouldn't and I suggested nothing like that...

..earlier I said that unconscious bias exists but the solutions being used only make the problem worse.

So the point which you have completely skipped over in your usual dismissive way, whilst telling us we've said things we haven't said (ie 'doing a Javert'), is that none of these solutions are working.

So we need a different way to tackle this clearly, we need new solutions.

But the article you linked, as far as I could tell, had nothing at all to do with unconscious bias.  In fact, it appeared to me to be saying that if anything police were being trained to reinforce and continue bias - that's not the purpose of unconscious bias training, obviously.

So you didn't get the point.

The point was that unconscious bias training also is doing the same thing - did you read Thomas's articles?

And also I didn't say that you said anything in particular - I just made a different analogy for the point that I myself was making.

Very well.

What would you say to Thomas's articles then?