Unconscious Bias Doesn't exist per Tory MPs

[Javert]

This is what I call "doing a Javert" -"would you consider that to be an optimal way to run your company?"

No I wouldn't and I suggested nothing like that...

..earlier I said that unconscious bias exists but the solutions being used only make the problem worse.

So the point which you have completely skipped over in your usual dismissive way, whilst telling us we've said things we haven't said (ie 'doing a Javert'), is that none of these solutions are working.

So we need a different way to tackle this clearly, we need new solutions.

But the article you linked, as far as I could tell, had nothing at all to do with unconscious bias.  In fact, it appeared to me to be saying that if anything police were being trained to reinforce and continue bias - that's not the purpose of unconscious bias training, obviously.

And also I didn't say that you said anything in particular - I just made a different analogy for the point that I myself was making.

As an aside, one of the odd things about this forum compared to other forums I've been on (not necessarily political ones) is that it seems to be assumed that if you reply to a post, you are directly addressing that particular poster and criticising them as if it's some kind of private message conversation - in my mind we are in a group conversation so all comments and statements are directed at everyone who is reading that thread.

[Borg Refinery]

This is what I call "doing a Javert" -"would you consider that to be an optimal way to run your company?"

No I wouldn't and I suggested nothing like that...

..earlier I said that unconscious bias exists but the solutions being used only make the problem worse.

So the point which you have completely skipped over in your usual dismissive way, whilst telling us we've said things we haven't said (ie 'doing a Javert'), is that none of these solutions are working.

So we need a different way to tackle this clearly, we need new solutions.

[Javert]

The problem in many cases is that the "solution providers" are part of the problem that reperpetuates the issues in our society.

Read this as well -

https://theintercept.com/2020/08/09/new-york-police-reform-lexipol/

The 'reforms' make them even worse in many cases, that's when they're not being taught neck restraint techniques by Israeli IDF... 🤔

I know I've wandered off the topic a bit, but I think you can appreciate the gist.

Well not exactly because that article you link doesn't seem to have anything about unconscious bias in it - it claims that police are actually being retrained to effectively escalate situations rather than de-escalate them, which is completely contrary to all rational findings by crowd management scientists in recent decades, but also has little to do with unconscious bias.

I certainly don't expect that rolling out an unconscious bias training as a tick box exercise will fix anything or have any effect - it has to be part of an overall program.

However, if you were a business owner or manager, if you knew that your departments were not hiring the best people for the job, but sometimes hiring the person whose face most fit into their unconscious tribe, even if they weren't the best qualified person, would you consider that to be an optimal way to run your company?

If business owners would train their staff in how to do their jobs better in all sorts of other, often technical, ways, why is training them to avoid unconscious and irrational bias against people with a certain skin colour or accent or whatever, any different?

To address it in a different way, if I took a 3 year training in how to be a plumber and changed my career, have I been brainwashed with propaganda bout how to unblock pipes?  If not, why is it any different to be trained in how to recognise people solely on the grounds of their character and abilities rather than where they came from, what school they want to, or any other hogwash?

Finally, if you are 100% certain you are not biased and everything is fine, how can you be brainwashed by such an information sharing course?  You didn't have any bias in the first place so obviously it will have no impact on you.

[Javert]

I watched the TV programme showing how the kids responded to this very carefully and was shocked. Not only did it create 2 separate groups to be taught but forced those who were mixed race/Asian to ask for their own group because they realised that they didn't fit into either category. It was the 'privileged whites' surrounded by predominately black teachers that felt belittled and were scared to voice any opinions. The agenda was not all kids are equal but that non-whites were automatically under-privileged. The visits to their homes proved that not to be true. The 'training' is warped.

If that is anything like what is being rolled out then it needs careful oversight by those who don't have an agenda.

Sorry but I've no idea what you mean - my OP was about unconscious bias - I'm not aware of TV programs about children being segregated in schools so I couldn't really comment further on that.

[Sheepy]

interesting article here toots.



   

There is just one problem. While unconscious bias training can raise awareness, there is little evidence it changes behaviour, and some showing it can backfire. In one study, students gave a tougher rating to older job hunters after watching a diversity training video that asked them to suppress unfavourable ideas about the elderly. It is also thought bigots can adopt a "moral license" to discriminate after training, once they are back in the office.

https://www.ft.com/content/899c3ee0-d37f-11e8-a9f2-7574db66bcd5


Sounds like yet more liberal left guff if you ask me. Javert , do i need to take a knee before posting this?

If i had to go on one of these courses , i would sit and smile throughout ,then crack on as normal once it was all over and ignore.

I'm aware that there is controversy around the efficacy of such training, but that's not what these Tory MPs were saying - they were claiming that unconscious bias doesn't exist.

The problem in many cases is that the "solution providers" are part of the problem that reperpetuates the issues in our society.

Read this as well -

https://theintercept.com/2020/08/09/new-york-police-reform-lexipol/

The 'reforms' make them even worse in many cases, that's when they're not being taught neck restraint techniques by Israeli IDF... 🤔

I know I've wandered off the topic a bit, but I think you can appreciate the gist.

I get it dyno, there is a massive culture clash, which populists have been warning about for years. Which for some reason the neo liberals call you a racist.

[Borg Refinery]

interesting article here toots.



   

There is just one problem. While unconscious bias training can raise awareness, there is little evidence it changes behaviour, and some showing it can backfire. In one study, students gave a tougher rating to older job hunters after watching a diversity training video that asked them to suppress unfavourable ideas about the elderly. It is also thought bigots can adopt a "moral license" to discriminate after training, once they are back in the office.

https://www.ft.com/content/899c3ee0-d37f-11e8-a9f2-7574db66bcd5


Sounds like yet more liberal left guff if you ask me. Javert , do i need to take a knee before posting this?

If i had to go on one of these courses , i would sit and smile throughout ,then crack on as normal once it was all over and ignore.

I'm aware that there is controversy around the efficacy of such training, but that's not what these Tory MPs were saying - they were claiming that unconscious bias doesn't exist.

The problem in many cases is that the "solution providers" are part of the problem that reperpetuates the issues in our society.

Read this as well -

https://theintercept.com/2020/08/09/new-york-police-reform-lexipol/

The 'reforms' make them even worse in many cases, that's when they're not being taught neck restraint techniques by Israeli IDF... 🤔

I know I've wandered off the topic a bit, but I think you can appreciate the gist.

[papasmurf]

I'm aware that there is controversy around the efficacy of such training, but that's not what these Tory MPs were saying - they were claiming that unconscious bias doesn't exist.

Which is precisely why they need the training.

[T00ts]

I watched the TV programme showing how the kids responded to this very carefully and was shocked. Not only did it create 2 separate groups to be taught but forced those who were mixed race/Asian to ask for their own group because they realised that they didn't fit into either category. It was the 'privileged whites' surrounded by predominately black teachers that felt belittled and were scared to voice any opinions. The agenda was not all kids are equal but that non-whites were automatically under-privileged. The visits to their homes proved that not to be true. The 'training' is warped.

If that is anything like what is being rolled out then it needs careful oversight by those who don't have an agenda.

[Javert]

interesting article here toots.



   

There is just one problem. While unconscious bias training can raise awareness, there is little evidence it changes behaviour, and some showing it can backfire. In one study, students gave a tougher rating to older job hunters after watching a diversity training video that asked them to suppress unfavourable ideas about the elderly. It is also thought bigots can adopt a "moral license" to discriminate after training, once they are back in the office.

https://www.ft.com/content/899c3ee0-d37f-11e8-a9f2-7574db66bcd5


Sounds like yet more liberal left guff if you ask me. Javert , do i need to take a knee before posting this?

If i had to go on one of these courses , i would sit and smile throughout ,then crack on as normal once it was all over and ignore.

I'm aware that there is controversy around the efficacy of such training, but that's not what these Tory MPs were saying - they were claiming that unconscious bias doesn't exist.

[Javert]

So the answer is to take those presumably white innocents and brainwash them to the point that they question their own quite natural responses. Great! Then they wonder why mental health problems are on the rise. It is already being forced on kids as shown on TV a while back. The white kids were the ones traumatised.

So it's ok to be racist and to act on that racism to deny people job opportunities as it's just perfectly natural?

[Thomas]

The point is that it's been proven by many scientific studies,

Unconscious Bias Training Perpetuates The Problems America Strives To Fix

https://www.forbes.com/sites/glennllopis/2017/10/21/unconscious-bias-training-perpetuates-the-problems-america-strives-to-fix/#5a13b5de6224

Everybody is unconsciously biased. Everyone has unfavorable mindsets. Everyone is battling the gulf between assimilation and authenticity.

So why are we allowing the bias to be solely about shift populations? Everyone has a bias about everyone, including diverse people.

Interesting article here from yank land on the flaws of unconscious bias training.

[T00ts]

I find this story quite interesting. Unconscious bias. It's a good title isn't it? If I am unconscious I am incapable of thought and yet here we see a black woman being redirected without thought from a court, not just once but three or four times. She got upset and that's fair enough but it does beg the question of what identification does anyone need in a court building that permits entry or otherwise? Are people simply wandering about so that those in charge are playing guesswork? Perhaps the change required is some for some sort of identification badge. A simple solution that would save a lot off problems - or perhaps that would be deemed inappropriate for such esteemed individuals.

The point is that it's been proven by many scientific studies, not just recently but over many decades, that most people are unconsciously biased against people who are perceived as different to them, even when they are not doing it on purpose and genuinely believe that they are completely fair in all respects.  This is a very obvious example of it but it's been proven in much more nuanced situations like for example whether someone with a foreign sounding name is likely to find their CV in the trash can even if they have exactly the same or better qualifications as the people with English sounding names - this has been shown in double blind trials many times, so to claim it doesn't exist is patently absurd.

As far as I'm concerned, any MP who denies that this exists is lacking the knowledge and intellectual curiosity to be qualified as an MP, but of course that's just my opinion.

So the answer is to take those presumably white innocents and brainwash them to the point that they question their own quite natural responses. Great! Then they wonder why mental health problems are on the rise. It is already being forced on kids as shown on TV a while back. The white kids were the ones traumatised.

[Borg Refinery]

interesting article here toots.



   

There is just one problem. While unconscious bias training can raise awareness, there is little evidence it changes behaviour, and some showing it can backfire. In one study, students gave a tougher rating to older job hunters after watching a diversity training video that asked them to suppress unfavourable ideas about the elderly. It is also thought bigots can adopt a "moral license" to discriminate after training, once they are back in the office.

https://www.ft.com/content/899c3ee0-d37f-11e8-a9f2-7574db66bcd5


Sounds like yet more liberal left guff if you ask me. Javert , do i need to take a knee before posting this?

If i had to go on one of these courses , i would sit and smile throughout ,then crack on as normal once it was all over and ignore.

A good point. The solutions may be crap, but the problem does seem to exist.

What would you do to combat it instead?

[Thomas]

interesting article here toots.



   

There is just one problem. While unconscious bias training can raise awareness, there is little evidence it changes behaviour, and some showing it can backfire. In one study, students gave a tougher rating to older job hunters after watching a diversity training video that asked them to suppress unfavourable ideas about the elderly. It is also thought bigots can adopt a "moral license" to discriminate after training, once they are back in the office.

https://www.ft.com/content/899c3ee0-d37f-11e8-a9f2-7574db66bcd5


Sounds like yet more liberal left guff if you ask me. Javert , do i need to take a knee before posting this?

If i had to go on one of these courses , i would sit and smile throughout ,then crack on as normal once it was all over and ignore.

[papasmurf]

It did strike me unfortunately that anyone who claims that it doesn't exist, is probably the person who is absolutely in the most need of it, and also perhaps some general education given that the clue is in the word "unconscious".

That would be most MPs not just Tory ones.