Ego

[DeppityDawg]

Nothing is being abandoned.

When you discovered the optical blind spot, which has been in your field of vision all your life, did you abandon your vision?

If you say so. But I've said this before - you say things like this...

thus stealing a watch from someone is a legitimate claim to ownership

Maybe its just that I don't get your style, but it seems to me you write things like this to be contrary on purpose - as if you are trying to cause offence by putting forward some theory that the rest of us are too stone aged to understand

It probably is just me, but I don't get why you do it

[Nalaar]

What do you think can help reduce ego? I know of seberal things but what do you use to mitigate yours?

I think observation of self is the best way to notice the Ego at work, and really noticing it is all you need to do, for as soon as you pay attention to the ego itself it melts like candy floss.

When you are angry look for the anger, when sad look for the sadness. Without prejudice.

I think it was Douglas Harding who used the phrase 'Look for the one that is looking' in which he described a thought experiment to look for where you are. Are you in your body? In your head? In your skull? In your brain? In your neurons? In your atoms? Once you know how to look, all that is required is periodic reminders to look.

[Borg Refinery]

I don't believe any of the above values are worth abandoning for some vague imagining about the world being a better place without them

Nothing is being abandoned.

When you discovered the optical blind spot, which has been in your field of vision all your life, did you abandon your vision?

What do you think can help reduce ego? I know of seberal things but what do you use to mitigate yours?

[Nalaar]

I don't believe any of the above values are worth abandoning for some vague imagining about the world being a better place without them

Nothing is being abandoned.

When you discovered the optical blind spot, which has been in your field of vision all your life, did you abandon your vision?

[Borg Refinery]

Following on from an exchange with DeppityDawg in another thread, I am going to try and expand more on the topic of Ego. Starting with  the following exchange

Ok then, I'll bite. I wish I could do away with this divisive polarised "I am superior to you" attitude that infects our political discourse. Where people are vilified and dismissed simply because they don't share the views of others. All sides do it. We all do it on here. No one is wholly innocent. Even Tootsie baby is not innocent.

I don't know how to do it, but that's what I'd like. No political party could ever be that I guess is the answer.

May be more of a conversation for another topic, but I think we can get there with three realisations -
1 - You are not your Ego.
2 - You are the result of circumstances beyond your control.
3 - Everyone else is also subject to 1 and 2.

This is a very broad topic and is rooted in the sense of I, and Free Will. I discussed Free Will in another thread of the same name, so here I will focus on the sense of I.

It is easy to observe how much the idea of "I" and "me" shapes our view of the world - 'He was rude to me' and 'I am getting a promotion' is such a non-remarkable way to think that it can be difficult to even notice that there is a distorting process in operation - Consider by analogy the optical blind spot. I'm sure most people have seen the trick by holding their fingers apart, or staring at dots on a page etc. That blind spot is always there, but it can be difficult to see, and even after you learn about it, it seems not to exist unless you're testing for it, and so it fades into invisible background noise. Imagine trying to describe seeing the optical blind spot to someone who had never seen it, and without the aid of a simple physical experiment, that is the difficulty presented in exposing the Ego.

I'll open with one of the first stories I heard that helped me to see the Ego Blind spot. It was told by Alan Wallace, what follows is my memory of the story i've since heard many times.

"I want you to look at my watch. My watch. My wife gave it to me, it is a cheap watch, but it is a good one. My watch. Right? So if you take it, then you took something of mine. So imagine someone take my watch and runs off to another country, at what point does it not become my watch anymore? I lost my watch...he has my watch...but he says 'no, this is my watch'
When did it become my watch? When did it stop being my watch? People give away kidneys while they are still alive, and blood, when do they stop becoming theirs?
We have a notion of possession. This is my country, my race, my possession, my memories - people lose their memories. The notion of I, and mine, and therefore not I, and not mine - All projection.
And what results? Suffering."

I like this, this is definitely one of your better posts.

Absolutely, we are oft led by our ego's and it does cause us suffering, if we were not so attached to the notions you describe then it would be a step in the right direction.

And FWIW I say this as a total and utter hypocrite with an ego the size of a planet, despite the fact I don't want it. 

[T00ts]

But I'm not an alien! 

No, but you're a woman. Sometimes, you all just as well be aliens for all the sense you make 

Now just a mo - just cos it's Friday it doesn't mean you can misbehave! Just because I'm in the minority..........    

[cromwell]

But I'm not an alien! 

No, but you're a woman. Sometimes, you all just as well be aliens for all the sense you make 

[DeppityDawg]

But I'm not an alien! 

No, but you're a woman. Sometimes, you all just as well be aliens for all the sense you make 

[DeppityDawg]

We have a notion of possession. This is my country, my race, my possession, my memories - people lose their memories. The notion of I, and mine, and therefore not I, and not mine - All projection.
And what results? Suffering."

The above is the only bit I can take issue with. The rest lost me somewhat. It reminded me of being in the car while my wife is doing the map reading - no fecker knows where we are going 

"My country" is a sense of identity, of belonging, of patriotism - if you don't feel that, fine. But please don't belittle those of us who do

"My race" is a bit more difficult - its also an identity for many, tied in with culture and heritage, also a feeling of belonging. Either way, none of us can change it

"My possession" is the concept of ownership, of reward, of value, of care even. People tend to care for their possessions, while some might have less respect for those of others, or things lent, borrowed or rented to them. Possessions like homes are a fundamental part of the society we live in. Possessions inspire and aspire people to work and to achievement. Its pretty difficult to concieve of a world without it

"My memories" are, to many of us, of great value. Of special times and places, of loved ones no longer with us, of happy moments. They can also be bad ones too, and serve to remind us where we've been and where we've arrived at. Whatever they are, unlike possessions, they can never be taken away from us by others, even if they are sometimes forgotten

Suffering? Well, there are many causes of that, but I don't believe any of the above values are worth abandoning for some vague imagining about the world being a better place without them

[GregB]

Surely there is a difference between giving blood or anything else and taking. One is a generous donation, the other theft. I would think that most would think their stolen watch should remain their property and expect it's return in a just world, where as the return of a gift is deemed rude.

Sure within the framework of our society that seems reasonable.

Consider it in the framework of an alien society where ownership is determined by who holds the item, thus stealing a watch from someone is a legitimate claim to ownership, and 'if you want it come and take it from my hands' would be the same as our consenting donation.

The important thing to note about these two frameworks (whatever your opinion of them) is that the watch in our society and the alien society can be literally identical. Therefore any claim to ownership is a property determined independent of the watch.

What aliens, an asumption at best and if they did exist you don't know their morals so another assumption. And it's always Independant of the watch as the watch doesn't think anything, or does it !

[T00ts]

Surely there is a difference between giving blood or anything else and taking. One is a generous donation, the other theft. I would think that most would think their stolen watch should remain their property and expect it's return in a just world, where as the return of a gift is deemed rude.

Sure within the framework of our society that seems reasonable.

Consider it in the framework of an alien society where ownership is determined by who holds the item, thus stealing a watch from someone is a legitimate claim to ownership, and 'if you want it come and take it from my hands' would be the same as our consenting donation.

The important thing to note about these two frameworks (whatever your opinion of them) is that the watch in our society and the alien society can be literally identical. Therefore any claim to ownership is a property determined independent of the watch.

But I'm not an alien! 

[Nalaar]

Surely there is a difference between giving blood or anything else and taking. One is a generous donation, the other theft. I would think that most would think their stolen watch should remain their property and expect it's return in a just world, where as the return of a gift is deemed rude.

Sure within the framework of our society that seems reasonable.

Consider it in the framework of an alien society where ownership is determined by who holds the item, thus stealing a watch from someone is a legitimate claim to ownership, and 'if you want it come and take it from my hands' would be the same as our consenting donation.

The important thing to note about these two frameworks (whatever your opinion of them) is that the watch in our society and the alien society can be literally identical. Therefore any claim to ownership is a property determined independent of the watch.

[T00ts]

Surely there is a difference between giving blood or anything else and taking. One is a generous donation, the other theft. I would think that most would think their stolen watch should remain their property and expect it's return in a just world, where as the return of a gift is deemed rude.

[papasmurf]

I'll open with one of the first stories I heard that helped me to see the Ego Blind spot. It was told by Alan Wallace, what follows is my memory of the story i've since heard many times.

"I want you to look at my watch. My watch. My wife gave it to me, it is a cheap watch, but it is a good one. My watch. Right? So if you take it, then you took something of mine. So imagine someone take my watch and runs off to another country, at what point does it not become my watch anymore? I lost my watch...he has my watch...but he says 'no, this is my watch'
When did it become my watch? When did it stop being my watch? People give away kidneys while they are still alive, and blood, when do they stop becoming theirs?
We have a notion of possession. This is my country, my race, my possession, my memories - people lose their memories. The notion of I, and mine, and therefore not I, and not mine - All projection.
And what results? Suffering."

I am afraid that is far too esoteric for me.

[DeppityDawg]

What...so you want me to give my fecking watch away now too?

-Nalaar- please note this comment is meant humourously. I know you struggle a bit with humour.

There's a lot to unpack there. I'll have to come back to it... preferably after I've had six pints or so