..Junk Science. Again.

[T00ts]

T00tsie,
That's why I am asking if anyone knows how T-cell immunity works, as opposed to antibodies from a recent infection.

I am sticking my tongue out! 

'Helper T cells are arguably the most important cells in adaptive immunity, as they are required for almost all adaptive immune responses. They not only help activate B cells to secrete antibodies and macrophages to destroy ingested microbes, but they also help activate cytotoxic T cells to kill infected target cells.'

I did study this at one point but I'm too rusty to give a good account of myself.

[HDQQ]

The statistics from all countries show that lockdowns were effective at bringing the rate of infection right down. But few countries have handled the easing of lockdowns correctly, which is why most countries now have a second wave with more infections than the first wave. If we can believe the statistics, China seems to have kept the lid on the disease.

Now other countries are going back in lockdown. France and Germany are going back in lockdown and some parts of Britain are too.  Surely we need another national lockdown. Deaths are starting to go up although mortality rate compared to infections is lower so far. This could be due to the fact that lots more people are being tested, or that seriously ill people are getting more effective treatment, or that the strain of virus is slightly milder.

[Barry]

T00tsie,
That's why I am asking if anyone knows how T-cell immunity works, as opposed to antibodies from a recent infection.

[T00ts]

I think from the sound of recent reports that herd immunity is a non starter. With antibodies disappearing within a couple of months thus possible re-infection, it's a lost cause. Even inoculation is likely to be ineffective unless most of the population could be done at the same time. That's also unlikely.

There seem to be lots of identification problems, symptoms vary from extreme to nothing. Responses vary too with some recovering alone while others seem to have no defence at all. This has been claimed to be blood type, ethnicity which could also relate to blood type, age but not always to the point that the science is playing catch up all the time. It seems to me that no one size fits all. AT the moment I can see no way out.

[papasmurf]

You should have a degree in stating the bleeding obvious.

I asked a medical question and you don't have the answer.
The whole reason all the measures are flawed is because of the more than 50% asymptomatic carriers. You can't track and trace them. You don't know they are there at all.

And every day, another 20,000 infections means herd immunity is on its way.

They could be track and traced if Serco was sacked and testing was brought in house.  Also herd immunity only works if those who get Covid-19 and recover are left with long term immunity.  That is not happening.

[Barry]

If you are asymptomatic you can spread the disease to others.

You should have a degree in stating the bleeding obvious.

I asked a medical question and you don't have the answer.
The whole reason all the measures are flawed is because of the more than 50% asymptomatic carriers. You can't track and trace them. You don't know they are there at all.

And every day, another 20,000 infections means herd immunity is on its way.

[papasmurf]

"Those for whom COVID-19 was confirmed with a gold standard PCR test had a less pronounced decline in antibodies, compared to people who had been asymptomatic and unaware of their original infection."

So basically, those who had a reasonable level of symptoms maintain a good level of antibodies. Those who were asymptotic don't. GREAT!! Job done. Why do you need antibodies if you're asymptotic? You don't need them, so this is a none report really.

If you are asymptomatic you can spread the disease to others.

[Nick]

Really?
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-britain-antibody/uk-study-finds-evidence-of-waning-antibody-immunity-to-covid-19-over-time-idUSKBN27C005

"Those for whom COVID-19 was confirmed with a gold standard PCR test had a less pronounced decline in antibodies, compared to people who had been asymptomatic and unaware of their original infection."

So basically, those who had a reasonable level of symptoms maintain a good level of antibodies. Those who were asymptotic don't. GREAT!! Job done. Why do you need antibodies if you're asymptotic? You don't need them, so this is a none report really.

[papasmurf]

Talking of herd immunity, which is on its way...

Really?
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-health-coronavirus-britain-antibody/uk-study-finds-evidence-of-waning-antibody-immunity-to-covid-19-over-time-idUSKBN27C005

[Barry]

Talking of herd immunity, which is on its way...
There's a lot of talk recently about T-cell immunity and antibody immunity.
Perhaps someone who feels qualified could explain this, as it might explain a negative antibody test after a short dose of the symptoms.
@JohnofGwent

[HDQQ]

Re. this graph from September.

Will Whitty and Valance resign, they are more like Laurel and Hardy.

So the actual situation now is half way between the blue bar-chart and the red one - we have daily confirmed cases hovering just under 20,000.  That is a long way from what one might have extrapolated from the blue bar-chart although it falls well short of the red predictions.

P.S. Since posting this I just saw government scientists estimate that about 47,000 people per day are being infected with covid-19 in UK (16th october). This would be quite close to the original graph, albeit 3 days behind the curve.

[HDQQ]

There's no such thing as a right-wing liberal.  Liberals are on the centre ground of politics and they believe in tolerance and a fair and open society.

I think you mean libertarians, whose philosophy is more along the lines of "I can do whatever I like, including stopping other people from doing what they like, if I feel like it."

And on the left there are the anarchists who say "nobody has the right to rule over me." which amounts to much the same thing.

There are people with naturally rebellious personalities and the extreme left and the extreme can both appeal to such people.

[papasmurf]

Trouble is that a lot of those calling for Covid restrictions to be relaxed are Right-Wing liberals who believe sacrificing tens of thousands of lives is a price worth paying.

Or Looney Tunes, like Dominic Cummings.

[patman post]

Oh look Ducky.
Guess what is in the news:
Coronavirus: Top scientists call for herd immunity approach - as government's 'soft touch' criticised
Herd immunity is the way to go, or maybe it's junk science ... again.

Trouble is that a lot of those calling for Covid restrictions to be relaxed are Right-Wing liberals who believe sacrificing tens of thousands of lives is a price worth paying.
The Great Barrington Declaration petition calls for older people and other high-risk demographics to continue shielding, while those in "less danger", as the petition puts it, would "immediately be allowed to resume life as normal".
But a number of world-class epidemiologists are concerned, because the petition does not outline a concrete plan for how this would happen in practice...

https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2020/10/07/the-great-barrington-declaration/

[papasmurf]

No, the problem is that those people won't want to stay home and away from the young and fit until the outbreak has died down.

They don't know they have a pre-existing condition.