Why does God let it happen?

[papasmurf]

Where do I come from?
Why am I here?
Where am I going?

Questions that have never bothered me. (Other than the first one, but ancestral DNA testing answered that.)

[T00ts]

As best we know thoughts are mental representations of active neurones.

What I consider "free thought" would be, for example, being able to think about loved ones, seem reasonable?

Oh yes very reasonable. Do you think that will be removed if there is an afterlife? Your first comment reveals just how far apart we are. You may well be right but of course my response to that would be - so who gave us neurones and that system? Was it really just chance? Often the reply to that dwells on Darwin etc but then my response would be how did all that happen and we would get back to the same old arguments. If you have belief and understand the story it all becomes very clear. Its just difficult to get past the barriers of unbelief and the pressure of the adversary, and those persuaded by him, who really doesn't want you to learn the answers.

I came to a point where I had 3 questions which prompted my current path.

Where do I come from?
Why am I here?
Where am I going?

I hate being in limbo so it made me ask those questions everywhere. The Gospel was the only place that gave me the answers that resonated in both my mind and heart.

[Nalaar]

Spoken as a true disbeliever. It depends I guess on what you consider free thought. Is sin inevitable? I wonder what that argument looks like. If you are happy with that statement it leads to only one outcome. I suppose denial of any superior being having an impact on us either now or in future leaves one with a void that will be filled by something. I would hazard a guess that that is a choice that you would deny too.

eg An easy one. If it came unannounced into your mind to molest a child you would hopefully dismiss that thought. Where did that thought come from?

As best we know thoughts are mental representations of active neurones.

What I consider "free thought" would be, for example, being able to think about loved ones, seem reasonable?

[T00ts]

I don't want to be deprived of free thought. Do you?

Choice requires free conscious thought. Making sin inevitable.

Spoken as a true disbeliever. It depends I guess on what you consider free thought. Is sin inevitable? I wonder what that argument looks like. If you are happy with that statement it leads to only one outcome. I suppose denial of any superior being having an impact on us either now or in future leaves one with a void that will be filled by something. I would hazard a guess that that is a choice that you would deny too.

eg An easy one. If it came unannounced into your mind to molest a child you would hopefully dismiss that thought. Where did that thought come from?

[Nalaar]

We chose in Heaven. That brought us here to grow and learn and develop. You now have the choice to follow that through. Then you get an eternity of life. No doubt there will still be choices why would that be removed, but they won't be the major ones. I take it you do not want to be deprived of evil. Perhaps you have made your choice. I  certainly hope you change your mind.   

I don't want to be deprived of free thought. Do you?

Choice requires free conscious thought. Making sin inevitable.

[T00ts]

Why are we denied choice in heaven? You get 100 years or less of free will, then get it taken away?

We chose in Heaven. That brought us here to grow and learn and develop. You now have the choice to follow that through. Then you get an eternity of life. No doubt there will still be choices why would that be removed, but they won't be the major ones. I take it you do not want to be deprived of evil. Perhaps you have made your choice. I  certainly hope you change your mind.   

[Nalaar]

Is there evil in Heaven? No.

...

As for the rest of your post we have been here before. God allows us the choice (free will)  and we live by the repercussions of those choices.

Why are we denied choice in heaven? You get 100 years or less of free will, then get it taken away?

[T00ts]

There are two interesting questions raised by the problem of Evil, the first is the Epicurean paradox, as explained by Lactantius -

"God, he says, either wishes to take away evils, and is unable; or He is able, and is unwilling; or He is neither willing nor able, or He is both willing and able. If He is willing and is unable, He is feeble, which is not in accordance with the character of God; if He is able and unwilling, He is envious, which is equally at variance with God; if He is neither willing nor able, He is both envious and feeble, and therefore not God; if He is both willing and able, which alone is suitable to God, from what source then are evils? Or why does He not remove them?"

The second is  the problem of heaven. I often find that when in discussion with a Christian about evil the answers they have are incompatible with the idea of heaven, or at least heaven as they imagine it to be. Put simply - Is there evil in heaven?

Is there evil in Heaven? No - God cannot accept any kind of evil. Evil - Satan - the Adversary whatever name you wish to give him is a spirit. I believe that we all are a spirit housed in a body. Satan had a plan for the earth which was at odds with God's. Jesus supported God and Satan didn't. The short story is that Satan and his followers were cast out. The war that started then still continues. Those on God's side are here on earth - including you - Satan and his followers are not allowed a body. That battle is coming to a head. Sins of all kind are increasing and some things abhorrent to God are now considered the norm. Satan will mislead as many as possible.

As for the rest of your post we have been here before. God allows us the choice (free will)  and we live by the repercussions of those choices. The biggest choice is whether to follow Christ, that alone will govern other choices. God has been known to intervene and still does on occasion. His reasons are known to Him and are not necessarily what we would hope for, but then as Barry posted earlier we have just small minds.

Just one thing you should consider - God and His followers will win the battle. God is omnipotent and the question that we should really be considering is where will we be?

[Nalaar]

There are two interesting questions raised by the problem of Evil, the first is the Epicurean paradox, as explained by Lactantius -

"God, he says, either wishes to take away evils, and is unable; or He is able, and is unwilling; or He is neither willing nor able, or He is both willing and able. If He is willing and is unable, He is feeble, which is not in accordance with the character of God; if He is able and unwilling, He is envious, which is equally at variance with God; if He is neither willing nor able, He is both envious and feeble, and therefore not God; if He is both willing and able, which alone is suitable to God, from what source then are evils? Or why does He not remove them?"

The second is  the problem of heaven. I often find that when in discussion with a Christian about evil the answers they have are incompatible with the idea of heaven, or at least heaven as they imagine it to be. Put simply - Is there evil in heaven?

[T00ts]

Born of water is childbirth. Born of the Spirit comes with trusting in Christ as Saviour.
Baptism in water is an outward sign of conversion, but is not essential to salvation. Born of the spirit is.
That's how I understand it, anyway. But we only have small brains.

Oh yes I agree about the small brains. Sadly I don't agree with your interpretation. It doesn't make sense. Jesus said He was the Way and the Light. If He was the sun of God why on earth would He need to be baptised? He believed in God His Father and knew who He was so why baptism? I believe it was for two reasons, 1) to show us what we should do - the same for all of us - a rebirth which cleanses us of sin thus giving us a fresh start in Him and 2) Once baptised He then received the Holy Ghost thus we should follow the same plan.

Everything He did was to set a standard, to show those who followed in His new law, how to follow Him. Some Churches 'baptise' babies but Jesus wanted us to be like a child, innocent. How do we translate that into them needing cleansing through baptism after birth? For me it makes little sense when measured by Jesus' words.

It seems to me that many doctrines have become like Chinese whispers. Christians all suggest that Jesus is steadfast, He doesn't change, yet over time different doctrines have taken the Gospel and adapted it to suit. I question the justification for that.

[Barry]

Born of water is childbirth. Born of the Spirit comes with trusting in Christ as Saviour.
Baptism in water is an outward sign of conversion, but is not essential to salvation. Born of the spirit is.
That's how I understand it, anyway. But we only have small brains.

[T00ts]

Goodbye Dynamis. 

John 3 wraps it up for me, T00ts:
Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus[a] by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him." 3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

As our preacher commented this morning.
A man who is born twice, dies once.
A man who is born once, dies twice.

What do you understand by 5? For me birth by water and Spirit is baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost. Not the Baptism of babies. A child is without sin. Jesus  was baptised by full immersion by John the Baptiste who recognised Jesus for who He really was and was unsure initially that he could/should baptise Him. However Jesus was showing us the way right from then. There are 2 deaths for those who do not follow Jesus. There is the death we all know about but at the end there will the spiritual death for those sinners who do not repent, who do not follow Jesus and who follow the Adversary. It looks as though we might agree!   

[Barry]

Goodbye Dynamis. 

John 3 wraps it up for me, T00ts:
Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus[a] by night and said to him, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him." 3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

As our preacher commented this morning.
A man who is born twice, dies once.
A man who is born once, dies twice.

[Borg Refinery]

I don't really need to. Just read the rest.
24 "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned


Yes Which is what I thought.  This talks of the resurrection of everyone. The resurrection is when the spirit is rejoined to the body. It doesn't deny acceptance of  the truth to the dead up until that time.

You're right. As an aside, the extreme judgements in life in general (incl on this place) and level of vitriol - and as a utter hypocrite myself, guilty as charged - are a bit much and I think things have really gone sgtir crazy in the last few years...

It's a shame because I remember more peaceable times but maybe that was an illusion? Rose tinted spex?

Anyway I apologize unreservedly to anyone on here I've insulted or belittled in any way at all (esp. you toots) and ask for your forgiveness, and as an aside I really don't think I should post on this place anymore. Too much hate and I'm pouring aviation fuel on the fire by the gallon, owing to my "nutcase" personality adjoining others'  ... it's got to stop I think, it's a disgrace for a 'Christian' to be doing that.

So I'll use this to say goodbye. It'll be good to spend my time more productively instead of gobbing off for hours on end about random inanity!

[T00ts]

How would you translate this with your doctrine?

John 5:25
New Testament

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live

I don't really need to. Just read the rest.
24 "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned

Yes Which is what I thought.  This talks of the resurrection of everyone. The resurrection is when the spirit is rejoined to the body. It doesn't deny acceptance of  the truth to the dead up until that time.