Why does God let it happen?

[DeppityDawg]

If it turns out that his actions were motivated by racial or religious hatred he can be re-arrested and charged with that offence.

Of course, Javert. Thats going to happen, isn't it.

You are aware that the cross is a repeatedly attacked and desecrated symbol, especially in Islamic countries?

[Javert]

Well done, Inspector fecking Clouseau. He's been charged with criminal damage, as already stated.

The rest of your post isn't worth a response, particularly as it appears to be addressed to the world in general

There was something in the Standard newspaper I could find - according to that, he was not charged with anything yet.  He was arrested on suspicion of criminal damage.

If it turns out that his actions were motivated by racial or religious hatred he can be re-arrested and charged with that offence.

[T00ts]

I guess that person would be charged with a hate crime if there is evidence that the motives were from hatred of the religion represented by that church.  Under UK law you can't be automatically convicted of a hate crime just for vandalising a religious building - you would have to have evidence that the motivation was hatred of that religion.

Also in any case it probably wouldn't be a hate crime it would be "religiously aggravated criminal damage".

For example, if the motivation was because the priest of that church had sexually abused you when you were a child (just an example), that would quite obviously not be a religious hate crime.

This is normal practice in most civilised societies.

However, For all you know, he was taking it down on instruction from the church as it was unsafe in some structural way - unlikely but since on the video the caption says "reason unknown", it's just as plausible as the explanations given above.  This video gives literally no idea of his motives and in fact explicitly states in the description that the motive was unknown.

If you think it should be a hate crime to damage a religious building regardless of the motivation, feel free to campaign to your local MP on it.

Also in regards to Toots comment above, if it's ok for Christian religions to go out spreading the "good news" and looking for new members, why isn't it ok for atheists to do that?

Are you under the impression that they don't?

"And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. Again he sent other servants, saying, 'Tell those who are invited, See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.' But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.' And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests. 'But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. And he said to him, 'Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, 'Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' For many are called, but few are chosen." - Matthew 22:1-14

The King is God and he will try to call us home but whether we listen and respond or not is where we have our free will. In other words there are many who will be tempted away and it will come in all sorts of guises. The adversary is the father of all lies and will tell anyone who listens how wonderful life will be if we just do not listen to the Gospel. There are many who advocate 'life is just for living, tomorrow is another day, you must also believe in the tooth fairy, live for today because tomorrow we die, you're a long time dead and many more regular sayings which actually have only one reason. Regular sayings that we have all heard often enough by those whose only wish is to deny faith in God and they are led by him and his battalions are fighting hard to distract as many as possible away from the truth about God and the Gospel. The best advice I have heard lately is to be prepared. What is happening now in the world is very clearly prophesied.

[DeppityDawg]

However, For all you know, he was taking it down on instruction from the church as it was unsafe in some structural way - unlikely but since on the video the caption says "reason unknown"

Well done, Inspector fecking Clouseau. He's been charged with criminal damage, as already stated.

The rest of your post isn't worth a response, particularly as it appears to be addressed to the world in general

[Javert]

I guess that person would be charged with a hate crime if there is evidence that the motives were from hatred of the religion represented by that church.  Under UK law you can't be automatically convicted of a hate crime just for vandalising a religious building - you would have to have evidence that the motivation was hatred of that religion.

Also in any case it probably wouldn't be a hate crime it would be "religiously aggravated criminal damage".

For example, if the motivation was because the priest of that church had sexually abused you when you were a child (just an example), that would quite obviously not be a religious hate crime.

This is normal practice in most civilised societies.

However, For all you know, he was taking it down on instruction from the church as it was unsafe in some structural way - unlikely but since on the video the caption says "reason unknown", it's just as plausible as the explanations given above.  This video gives literally no idea of his motives and in fact explicitly states in the description that the motive was unknown.

If you think it should be a hate crime to damage a religious building regardless of the motivation, feel free to campaign to your local MP on it.

Also in regards to Toots comment above, if it's ok for Christian religions to go out spreading the "good news" and looking for new members, why isn't it ok for atheists to do that?

[DeppityDawg]

To be fair, if you remember DaveUK he was a lot more robust to the point of being rude trying to convince us there was no God - and he'd studied theology!

As for Nalaar, his withdrawal from the thread seems to be his way of avoiding conflict, as he has done this several times before, although the conflicting views seem to be OK if in a single direction.

Finally, Christianity is now the most oppressed and persecuted faith on the planet. The fact Christians get arrested on our streets preaching from scripture says an awful lot about how intolerant "we" have become. Why has God let this happen? Perhaps because under persecution, Christianity is stronger.

I don't remember much about DaveUk. Only that I didn't like him much. There again, I don't like anyone much so that's no surprise 

Nalaar is clearly operating on a different plane to most. I don't mean him disrespect, but withdrawal is an easy option, and tbh, these issues are probably some of the most personal that can be discussed. To be so free and easy with critical comment (when none of us can truly say we 'know' the answer) on matters that are at the heart of our identity, could be viewed as callous - a kind of intellectual bullying. Not everyone has had the opportunity of a higher education, or the luxury of time with which to dissect the great meanings of life. The "flat earth" analogy didn't endear me, or that the next line could so easily have been 'fairies at the bottom of the garden'. I've seen that written by at least one poster on the old forum

Your last paragraph sums it up really. In the western world, people enjoy (for now at least) the great gift of free speech. To use it to persecute/lampoon/denigrate religion (and lets be honest, in our society that means christianity) is easy. The point I was attempting to make is that its always a one way street - what is said to/about christians by liberal "progressive thinkers" is seldom, if ever, seen being directed at other religions. And the reason for that is that they wouldn't dare say it about one in particular. The result was there for all to see in Paris last week, as it has been so many times before. I wish I could agree with you about persecution, but sadly I don't believe it will make anyone stronger

[DeppityDawg]

I understand your concerns. Don't think that I am complacent either. We all wonder what we should do better, what mistakes we have made and how we will ever meet Him. My teaching says that we are here to learn, to grow and to fight the adversary in all it's forms wherever we can. At the same time God knows that we will make mistakes. Only by making those mistakes will we ever grow and learn. Just as we have to stand back and allow our children to fall when they are learning to walk and run free He does the same for us. Those mistakes will be forgiven if we are truly sorry. Think of the prodigal son. He is no different to us in that he loves us no matter what. In your career it must have been hard, but again He understands.

I won't kid you that everything in the garden is rosy. We have to work to earn our place in eternity otherwise what would be the point of living at all? What would be the point of our development as human beings? Just remember that He has our best future in mind. He gave us the commandments as a guide as to how to stay safe from the adversary and best of all He sent Jesus as our advocate and as a path to show us how to succeed. The theory is really simple it's just the execution which tests us. Having said all of that - perfection is impossible on earth, we can only do our utmost best from today onwards.

Thank you for those kind words, Toots. For all my joshing, you do know that I appreciate you 

[T00ts]

Perhaps because under persecution, Christianity is stronger.

I do so agree. I think it is human nature to become stronger in any view (even political) when under duress. I also believe that mankind is under tremendous stress at the moment and I was really interested to read that during the lockdowns there was a vast increase in those watching televised religious services. It is a factor that when humans are in danger they often appeal to God instinctively. It must be something that our spirit knows while the brain hasn't quite got the message.

[Barry]

Can I ask a question? Does the fact that (in this case Barry and Toots) someone has faith, does it annoy you/irritate you/dismay you? You seem to spend an awful lot of time on this thread attempting to undermine (if thats the right word) their faith?

To be fair, if you remember DaveUK he was a lot more robust to the point of being rude trying to convince us there was no God - and he'd studied theology!

As for Nalaar, his withdrawal from the thread seems to be his way of avoiding conflict, as he has done this several times before, although the conflicting views seem to be OK if in a single direction.

Finally, Christianity is now the most oppressed and persecuted faith on the planet. The fact Christians get arrested on our streets preaching from scripture says an awful lot about how intolerant "we" have become. Why has God let this happen? Perhaps because under persecution, Christianity is stronger.

[T00ts]

I probably have more reason to fear meeting my maker than most, Toots. Don't imagine that it hasn't preyed on my mind over the years, or that not being religious in the conventional sense doesn't mean I don't have or have never questioned my own faith or beliefs. In answer to the thread title, why does God "let it happen"? I don't know. Sometimes, to have been so close to things you'd rather not have seen or done, causes you to ask "why did I"? That the answer isn't there doesn't make it any easier to avoid the question.

I understand your concerns. Don't think that I am complacent either. We all wonder what we should do better, what mistakes we have made and how we will ever meet Him. My teaching says that we are here to learn, to grow and to fight the adversary in all it's forms wherever we can. At the same time God knows that we will make mistakes. Only by making those mistakes will we ever grow and learn. Just as we have to stand back and allow our children to fall when they are learning to walk and run free He does the same for us. Those mistakes will be forgiven if we are truly sorry. Think of the prodigal son. He is no different to us in that he loves us no matter what. In your career it must have been hard, but again He understands.

I won't kid you that everything in the garden is rosy. We have to work to earn our place in eternity otherwise what would be the point of living at all? What would be the point of our development as human beings? Just remember that He has our best future in mind. He gave us the commandments as a guide as to how to stay safe from the adversary and best of all He sent Jesus as our advocate and as a path to show us how to succeed. The theory is really simple it's just the execution which tests us. Having said all of that - perfection is impossible on earth, we can only do our utmost best from today onwards.

[DeppityDawg]

I think it was a little more cerebral than just straight forward questioning of my beliefs. The logic is what he questions but unfortunately belief in God is not logical in the sense that he would appreciate and perhaps his logic has led him to his unbelief but really he is still searching the true answers. I don't blame him for those questions. They are ones that we all ask at some point, I have asked them myself many years ago. I guess I am fortunate that I am convinced that I have received the answers so all questions are settled for me. My prayer is that we should all receive that same conviction - even you DD!   

I probably have more reason to fear meeting my maker than most, Toots. Don't imagine that it hasn't preyed on my mind over the years, or that not being religious in the conventional sense doesn't mean I don't have or have never questioned my own faith or beliefs. In answer to the thread title, why does God "let it happen"? I don't know. Sometimes, to have been so close to things you'd rather not have seen or done, causes you to ask "why did I"? That the answer isn't there doesn't make it any easier to avoid the question.

[T00ts]

Really? Do you know what I think is a shame? I think its a shame that you've spent the best part of 4 pages of this thread questioning and critiquing the faith, values and beliefs of others, yet as soon as your own beliefs and values are critiqued, you take umbrage. This is a discussion forum Nalaar - or perhaps there should be a "safe space" thread on the forum for liberals to critique who the hell they like without fear of anyone questioning their values or motivations?

I looked those names up briefly - 3 of them appear to be concerned with helping and "supporting" those who have "left" Islam, or active in the encouragement of people to leave Islam. Does this not in itself present a very negative picture of Islam? Are we to assume that since people need "support" to leave Islam then it is not exactly as easy as cancelling your membership? I guess with your skepticism about faith itself, then "leaving" a religion is the only rational course anyone could take - hey, to hell with faith, eh?

Or, which I suspect is a more rational approach, is it that most Muslims are decent people, and that Islam per se is not a bad religion, or because that just like any other religion, it has its bad people? Babies and bath water springs to mind

One of the others names subjects of interest is listed as "Psychedelics". Yes, ok 

That's entirely up to you. I've put some difficult points to you that centre (negatively) around religion and faith, but which also question your motivations and position in all this. Its all very well to critique others, but critique can and should go both ways. If you can't accept that, I guess leaving the discussion there is the best option

I think it was a little more cerebral than just straight forward questioning of my beliefs. The logic is what he questions but unfortunately belief in God is not logical in the sense that he would appreciate and perhaps his logic has led him to his unbelief but really he is still searching the true answers. I don't blame him for those questions. They are ones that we all ask at some point, I have asked them myself many years ago. I guess I am fortunate that I am convinced that I have received the answers so all questions are settled for me. My prayer is that we should all receive that same conviction - even you DD!   

[DeppityDawg]

A shame this is how the conversation ended,

Really? Do you know what I think is a shame? I think its a shame that you've spent the best part of 4 pages of this thread questioning and critiquing the faith, values and beliefs of others, yet as soon as your own beliefs and values are critiqued, you take umbrage. This is a discussion forum Nalaar - or perhaps there should be a "safe space" thread on the forum for liberals to critique who the hell they like without fear of anyone questioning their values or motivations?

but none the less it is a good opportunity to promote people who I believe are doing good work in this area - Sarah Haider, Muhammad Syed, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Sam Harris, and Yasmine Mohammed.

I looked those names up briefly - 3 of them appear to be concerned with helping and "supporting" those who have "left" Islam, or active in the encouragement of people to leave Islam. Does this not in itself present a very negative picture of Islam? Are we to assume that since people need "support" to leave Islam then it is not exactly as easy as cancelling your membership? I guess with your skepticism about faith itself, then "leaving" a religion is the only rational course anyone could take - hey, to hell with faith, eh?

Or, which I suspect is a more rational approach, is it that most Muslims are decent people, and that Islam per se is not a bad religion, or because that just like any other religion, it has its bad people? Babies and bath water springs to mind

One of the others names subjects of interest is listed as "Psychedelics". Yes, ok 

In any case I don't think continuing with this serves the topic, so I'll leave my input at that.

That's entirely up to you. I've put some difficult points to you that centre (negatively) around religion and faith, but which also question your motivations and position in all this. Its all very well to critique others, but critique can and should go both ways. If you can't accept that, I guess leaving the discussion there is the best option

[T00ts]

A shame this is how the conversation ended, but none the less it is a good opportunity to promote people who I believe are doing good work in this area - Sarah Haider, Muhammad Syed, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Sam Harris, and Yasmine Mohammed.

In any case I don't think continuing with this serves the topic, so I'll leave my input at that.

So are you supporting those who promote atheism no matter what religion they started with?

[Nalaar]

On the contrary Nalaar, I've a fairly good idea of your attitude towards the faith of others based on your contributions to this thread and others in a similar vein. That's why I purposely wrote that I've seen nothing to change my mind (that at best double standards are at work, and at worst, deliberate ignorance) because I haven't. By your own admission, "there is work to do" when critiquing other religions than Christianity. When are we going to see this work begin? Otherwise those words are empty.

A shame this is how the conversation ended, but none the less it is a good opportunity to promote people who I believe are doing good work in this area - Sarah Haider, Muhammad Syed, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Sam Harris, and Yasmine Mohammed.

In any case I don't think continuing with this serves the topic, so I'll leave my input at that.