Indyref2: Starmer refuses to rule out backing Scotland referendum

[Jaydee]

No, it does not.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/articles/persistentpovertyintheukandeu/2017

Oh dear.  If you are going to link something.  Understand it.  Persistent poverty is defined as when a household experiences relatively low income both in the current year and at least two out of the three preceding years. In the UK in 2017, 7.8% of the population was estimated to be experiencing persistent relative poverty.  Let me repeat.  The UK has the worst poverty in Europe.   See my previous links.

[Barry]

You need to get out more.

I've managed to visit several counties in England since March and moved house from the West Mids to Kent this year. I would have been to Greece but the walking holiday was cancelled.

[Barry]

Let me repeat.  The UK has the worst poverty in Europe.

No, it does not.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personalandhouseholdfinances/incomeandwealth/articles/persistentpovertyintheukandeu/2017

[patman post]

One reason for poverty among the elderly in the UK is that the country has a smaller proportion of tax take for pension than countries like France, Germany, the Nordic countries, etc. What the state pays out in pension is small in the UK compared to these other countries.
Some of these countries administer the total retirement pension, which means pension deductions from all salaries and company contributions get amalgamated and state pension bodies pay the whole amount.
In effect, many other states ensure all employees have pension pots that the employee, the employer and the state pay into, and the state administers...

[papasmurf]

Although I've not noticed the worst poverty in Europe.

You need to get out more.

[Jaydee]

OK, I'll concede. Although I've not noticed the worst poverty in Europe. Perhaps you have not been to Greece, or Romania...

Meanwhile, Starmer sits on the fence without any hard policies in sight.

Because you do not notice.  It does no mean it does not exist.  Let me repeat.  The UK has the worst poverty in Europe. And out of the top  10 poorest regions in Europe.  Nine of them are in the UK.  And Starmer is not in power.  And can sit where he likes.  Big Kranky Bojo.  Is the man in power and everything falls to him. His days of being a clown and laughed at.  Are now a reality. Your reality show. 

https://www.endhungeruk.org/2017/06/27/unicef-report-britain-worst-europe-childrens-hunger/
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/aug/18/elderly-poverty-risen-fivefold-since-80s-pensions
https://www.poverty.ac.uk/report-europe-poverty/uk-poverty-rate-still-above-eu-average-despite-fall-under-labour

[Barry]

Let me ask you again.  How does that make them socialist.  Lets start with Trident.  They are not against Trident.  They are against it being on Scottish soil. Or rather water.  Climate Emergency.  Wow Big Kranky Bojo promising every home to be powered by wind by 2030.  Bit late.   Scotland has already achieved that twice over. Not to mention wave power and hydro electric.    UC.  Even the Tory's apart from IDS are against it.  And despite austerity since the SNP have came into power they have underspent every year.  Froze council tax for six years.  Built the Queensferry crossing, the M9 upgrade.  The Aberdeen City by pass.  At the time the largest civil project in Europe.  While big Kranky Bojo has wracked up a £2.4 trillion debt, rising at over £5,000 per second.. . Created the worst poverty in Europe, Food banks cannot cope.  England has the worst class system in the world.  And  doubled the National debt.  But heh why let facts get in the road.

OK, I'll concede. Although I've not noticed the worst poverty in Europe. Perhaps you have not been to Greece, or Romania...

Meanwhile, Starmer sits on the fence without any hard policies in sight.

[Jaydee]

End austerity.
The "so called" climate emergency.
Scrap trident
Anti Tories Universal Credit
NHS protection act - against privatisation.
https://s3-eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/www.snp.org/uploads/2019/11/11_27-SNP-Manifesto-2019-for-download.pdf
Although I would concede that they are nowhere near the socialist/communist position of Corbyn, but more like Blair in their middle of the road political view.

Let me ask you again.  How does that make them socialist.  Lets start with Trident.  They are not against Trident.  They are against it being on Scottish soil. Or rather water.  Climate Emergency.  Wow Big Kranky Bojo promising every home to be powered by wind by 2030.  Bit late.   Scotland has already achieved that twice over. Not to mention wave power and hydro electric.    UC.  Even the Tory's apart from IDS are against it.  And despite austerity since the SNP have came into power they have underspent every year.  Froze council tax for six years.  Built the Queensferry crossing, the M9 upgrade.  The Aberdeen City by pass.  At the time the largest civil project in Europe.  While big Kranky Bojo has wracked up a £2.4 trillion debt, rising at over £5,000 per second.. . Created the worst poverty in Europe, Food banks cannot cope.  England has the worst class system in the world.  And  doubled the National debt.  But heh why let facts get in the road.

[Thomas]

End austerity.
The "so called" climate emergency.
Scrap trident
Anti Tories Universal Credit
NHS protection act - against privatisation.
https://s3-eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/www.snp.org/uploads/2019/11/11_27-SNP-Manifesto-2019-for-download.pdf
Although I would concede that they are nowhere near the socialist/communist position of Corbyn, but more like Blair in their middle of the road political view.

sorry barry i dont agree with you. I have said this many a time , right across the english political specturm , from sensitive steve on the hard left to people like yourself on the small c tory right, you are merely regurgitating the crap your own "british " media sell you.

The SNP arent socialist. I keep saying they are a broad church , with a variety of policies across the board and varying political views within the party. Same as the indy movement.

I think part of the problem as i have said before is that England is slightly more to the right than scotland , so our "centre" ground appears left wing to many of you in england.

I dont agree with austerity. We have discussed this many a time over the years with many respected economists calling is a failed and flawed policy , most of whom arent in any way regarded as socialists.

The climate emergency isnt the sole policy of socialists. Im of mixed feelings on this tending towards sceptical , but its no great bug bear with far more important things to worry about in life.

Im completely against trident. Not only is this not a socialist policy  , but from my and many scots perspective we dont want your countires nuclear weapons sited less than thirty miles from our countries greatest popualtion centre , not to mention the cost that little england can ill afford.We shouldnt be getting forced into paying for something scotland and the majority of our people and politicians dont want.

Anti tories unversal credit? Well considering your countries conservative party hasnt won an election in scotland since the fifteis , why should they have a say on our countries benefits?Would you be happy is the eu were dictating benefits in england?

Again nothing to do with socialism , you have an example of the absurdity of that belief when you listen to jaydee , a self confessed scottish conservative who isnt in any weay regarded as a socialist who hates your countries tory government and supports independence.

I bet jaydee really puts a cat among the pigeons on here  , poor old sensitive steve will be deflated when he realises scotland isnt full of hard core marxists.

Just because my countries main political party doesnt agree with your countries main party and is slightly to the left to varying degrees on many issues doesnt make them socialists.

[Barry]

How do you work out the SNP are socialist. 

End austerity.
The "so called" climate emergency.
Scrap trident
Anti Tories Universal Credit
NHS protection act - against privatisation.
https://s3-eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/www.snp.org/uploads/2019/11/11_27-SNP-Manifesto-2019-for-download.pdf
Although I would concede that they are nowhere near the socialist/communist position of Corbyn, but more like Blair in their middle of the road political view.

[Jaydee]

Starmer seems to be continuing his predecessor's policy of sitting on the fence about so many issues. Perhaps we'll see some real policy one day, but Labour have been pretty much rejected in Scotland in favour of the other socialist party, the SNP.

How do you work out the SNP are socialist. 

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/04/if-you-think-snp-are-left-wing-force-think-again
https://www.politico.eu/article/scotland-snp-left-wing/
https://theconversation.com/five-truths-about-scottish-politics-that-might-surprise-you-45182

[johnofgwent]

Indyref2: Starmer refuses to rule out backing Scotland referendum

But the Labour leader says another "divisive" vote on Scotland's position in the near future is "not needed".

Source: Indyref2: Starmer refuses to rule out backing Scotland referendum

So he's saying it's not needed but he wouldn't rule out backing it if it were to come about

Well, I'm not sure that really clears much up.

And to be honest, it does not really matter what he thinks or says because he isnlt in a positionot do anything and knows it.

[Thomas]

It is nothing but political calculation. Ruling out a referendum for all time would be senseless if he wants to have the slightest hope of appealing to progressive Scots. He cannot after all out-unionist the Tories in any case. Yet coming out in favour of a referendum any time soon would be used against him in England.

So this is about doing the politically best thing for Starmer, rather than standing on any principle or doing what is right, and as such is typically Blairite. I simply don't trust him.

you dont trust him?

So how do you think his fence sitting policy is going down among scots?

Not very well.

He is alienating himself and his party from indy supporters , and by not taking a harsh stance in defending the union , he is alientaing himself from staunch unionists who are going to the tories as the best bet to save the union.

So all in all im pleased about starmers pathetic stance.

We saw where labours duplicity and fence sitting with mixed messages got them at the last election over brexit. The same thing happened , pro europeans went to other parties , and pre brexiters went tory.

They never learn.

[srb7677]

It is nothing but political calculation. Ruling out a referendum for all time would be senseless if he wants to have the slightest hope of appealing to progressive Scots. He cannot after all out-unionist the Tories in any case. Yet coming out in favour of a referendum any time soon would be used against him in England.

So this is about doing the politically best thing for Starmer, rather than standing on any principle or doing what is right, and as such is typically Blairite. I simply don't trust him.

[patman post]

Starmer seems to be continuing his predecessor's policy of sitting on the fence about so many issues.

Worked well for Blair while the remains of Thatcher's government was ripping shreds out of Major — so it may not be such a bad ploy...