I'm so disappointed

[cromwell]

Many of the reasons progressively minded Scots -

You keep talking about progressive voters as though they are one and the same with you........you arent a progressive.

some one ( you) who advocates doing the same thing over and over again politically , and sticking tribally by a party no matter what they do , isnt my idea of being progressive.

Your attitude is almost cult like in manner .

Needless to say, I will not be told what to do politically by you. The progressive left has a better chance of gaining what it wants by staying and fighting within Labour than by leaving it and becoming politically irrelevant. You just can't get your head around that. And for an SNP obsessive to regard me as any kind of cultist is frankly a bit rich. Unlike you, I do not support my party leadership whatever it does.

I have also long noted the political love in that takes place here between different members. All backing each other up and agreeing with each other all the time. This place is enemy territory for me and sometimes I wonder why I bother

Cobblers Steve........people agree on some things  not others,a few short weeks ago Thomas and I were at each other going hammer and tongs,DD thinks I'm a limp wristed liberal......its just a forum.

[srb7677]

Many of the reasons progressively minded Scots -

You keep talking about progressive voters as though they are one and the same with you........you arent a progressive.

some one ( you) who advocates doing the same thing over and over again politically , and sticking tribally by a party no matter what they do , isnt my idea of being progressive.

Your attitude is almost cult like in manner .

Needless to say, I will not be told what to do politically by you. The progressive left has a better chance of gaining what it wants by staying and fighting within Labour than by leaving it and becoming politically irrelevant. You just can't get your head around that. And for an SNP obsessive to regard me as any kind of cultist is frankly a bit rich. Unlike you, I do not support my party leadership whatever it does.

I have also long noted the political love in that takes place here between different members. All backing each other up and agreeing with each other all the time. This place is enemy territory for me and sometimes I wonder why I bother

[Thomas]

Internal party polling at the time showed that the Lib Dem vote was not coming to us.

i never said it was.

You need to read what i am writing and not what you thin i am writing.

It clearly wasn't going to the Tories in any large numbers either, since like us they only got one seat

So they did , but the tories got the second highest share of the vote in scotland , and only lost in a few scottish seats by a few hundred votes it was that tight.

Stop attempting and failing to use the vagaries of fptp to suit your silly argument.

The tory vote share doubled between 2015 and 2017 so what are you taliking about?( the highest conservative vote share in scotland for over 30 years)

The tories as i said cornered the unionist vote from labour and the lib dem.

[srb7677]

The significance of the Lib Dems as I have explained before is that - along with the SNP - they acted as an alternative home for a progressive vote abandoning New Labour. When the Lib Dems then went and jumped into bed with the Tories, their voter base shifted to the SNP en masse at the next opportunity in 2015. This extra boost greatly facilitted the SNP gaining the votes to slaughter Labour in the 2015 election.

As is said above , you are conflating english issues with scottish .

Your interpretation of the lib dem vote never happened in scotland to any great degree worthy of note , so what are you talking about?

The lib dems won 4 scottish seats at both the last two uk general election , and their vote share has remained consistent with what i mentioned above.

The main change in scottish voting patterns happened at westminster in 2015 , where the labour vote by and large went en masse to the snp , with some remaining with labour , and the unionist labour vote going to the tories as the tories were seen as the best alternative to keep scotland in the union.

The lib dem vote in scotland  that had given nick clegg 18% of the vote in 2010 , and then dropped to around 8% in 2015 , split between various parties ,not just the snp  , as some of the old lib dem vote went tory  , again to bolster the unionist vote to keep scotland in the union.

You dont really get unionist and nationalsit voting in scotland do you srb? Thats even when i have consistently pointed out to you your party is often in bed with the tories in their duplicitous attempts to keep scotland in the union.

Again you show you dont have much of a clue about scottish politics.

Internal party polling at the time showed that the Lib Dem vote was not coming to us. It clearly wasn't going to the Tories in any large numbers either, since like us they only got one seat. The Lib Dem vote collapsed from 18% to 8% and most of that went to the SNP. And prior to 2015 the Lib Dems might have only had 4 seats but that is just FPTP for you again. They had 18% of the vote, much of it in seats they didn't hold but where by switching to the SNP they could make a massive difference

[Thomas]

Many of the reasons progressively minded Scots -

You keep talking about progressive voters as though they are one and the same with you........you arent a progressive.

some one ( you) who advocates doing the same thing over and over again politically , and sticking tribally by a party no matter what they do , isnt my idea of being progressive.

Your attitude is almost cult like in manner .

[Thomas]

Interesting Steve how the rise of the Snp is all down to Thatcher,new labour and the lib dems,no mention of old labour or the Wurzel effect.

Exactly cromwell , its nothing more than rewriting history to suit his deranged narrative  , while ignoring the inconvenient bits he doesnt like .

Momentum and corbyn were hated in scotland , and when i point this out , he then tells me its because scotland is full of blairites?

So that then begs the question why did the blairites get a humping in 2015 , and why isnt starmers blairites universally popular in scotland?

He just doesnt get the fact scotland hates labour , and has had enough of them like many other areas across the uk.

[srb7677]

Interesting Steve how the rise of the Snp is all down to Thatcher,new labour and the lib dems,no mention of old labour or the Wurzel effect.

What you don't get Steve is people have seen through the emperors new clothes of labour in all its guises,the tories are a bunch of bastards usually but at least it's there and upfront,that's not not so with labour new or old they parrot their disapproval but privately have or admit they would've pursued similar policies.

It will take some monumental effort to reverse that decline or the scepticism of the traditional labour support who deserted them.

Many of the reasons progressively minded Scots - as opposed to the independence fanatics like Thomas - abandoned Labour is because Labour wasn't traditionally Labour enough, not true Labour. Corbyn tried to move Labour back to a true Labour position, but Scottish Labour on the ground was largely opposed to him and still mostly dominated by Blairites. So progressive Scots were not persuaded. It was in any case too late to easily reverse the damage. Progressive Scots had already largely abandoned Labour.

[Thomas]

The significance of the Lib Dems as I have explained before is that - along with the SNP - they acted as an alternative home for a progressive vote abandoning New Labour. When the Lib Dems then went and jumped into bed with the Tories, their voter base shifted to the SNP en masse at the next opportunity in 2015. This extra boost greatly facilitted the SNP gaining the votes to slaughter Labour in the 2015 election.

As is said above , you are conflating english issues with scottish .

Your interpretation of the lib dem vote never happened in scotland to any great degree worthy of note , so what are you talking about?

The lib dems won 4 scottish seats at both the last two uk general election , and their vote share has remained consistent with what i mentioned above.

The main change in scottish voting patterns happened at westminster in 2015 , where the labour vote by and large went en masse to the snp , with some remaining with labour , and the unionist labour vote going to the tories as the tories were seen as the best alternative to keep scotland in the union.

The lib dem vote in scotland  that had given nick clegg 18% of the vote in 2010 , and then dropped to around 8% in 2015 , split between various parties ,not just the snp  , as some of the old lib dem vote went tory  , again to bolster the unionist vote to keep scotland in the union.

You dont really get unionist and nationalsit voting in scotland do you srb? Thats even when i have consistently pointed out to you your party is often in bed with the tories in their duplicitous attempts to keep scotland in the union.

Again you show you dont have much of a clue about scottish politics.

[srb7677]

So you've never heard of the BXP then.

So when did they break the FPTP barrier in a general election? I must have missed it.

[srb7677]

Except the SNP in Scotland who took many decades in spite of it being virtually handed to them on a plate by Thatcher, New Labour, and the Lib Dems.

I dont have time just now to go into a major discussion of the political history of the snp and scotland throughout the last century , but as ever this is a major sideswerve of yours with a grain of truth.

The SNP began at the height of british identity in scotland , and while the two party system was at its peak , and a whole host of other issues that contributed to the long hard slog to get to where they are today.

A new party , or parties in england , wont face many of those issues. So the comparison and dismissal  of a rise of new parties in your country with the timeframe of the snp rise to power is a nonsense as ever.

We have touched on your nonsensical reinterpretation of political history before....where you lament labours fall from grace and blame thatcher and new labour as the sole contributors ( which is a nonsense)but i have no idea why you blame the lib dems ?

The lib dem vote over the last thirty years in scotland has remained relatively static and minor , ranging from around 7 to 13% , with their power base concentrated in the north west of scotland.

The majority of the snp vote over the years (but not exclusively) has come from labour  , so what on earth  has the lib dems got to do with anything in scotland?

You seem to be casting off left wing english bleats about issues primarily in england that you dislike about the tories and lib dems , and then applying them to scotland in your ususal deranged manner to give a theory for the rise of the snp and fall of your own lamentable party while as ever refusing to look at the fact labour  , not the tories , thatcher or the lib dems , and their lies and duplicity are the architects of their own destruction in scotland?

All this though is irrelevant to the rise of a new modern political party in england today , where i firmly agree with dynamis there is more than enough scope and opportunity for it to happen.

The idea of course FPTP will last forever and labour tory tennis continue unabated is of course laughable , as scotland has proven.

It was only 7 years ago labour were confident they would remain untouchable as the party for scotland at westminster , and 14 years ago at holyrood .

The significance of the Lib Dems as I have explained before is that - along with the SNP - they acted as an alternative home for a progressive vote abandoning New Labour. When the Lib Dems then went and jumped into bed with the Tories, their voter base shifted to the SNP en masse at the next opportunity in 2015. This extra boost greatly facilitted the SNP gaining the votes to slaughter Labour in the 2015 election.

It was handed to you guys on a plate by the Tories imposing Thatcherism, by Labour becoming New Labour semi-Thatcherites, and by the Lib Dems siding with the hated Tories.

There will be no such perfect storm for any other party in England. If beating FPTP was ever going to easily happen, the SDP would have done it, the Lib Dems would have done it, the Greens would have done it, UKIP would have done it, Respect would have done it. None of them ever really have.

[cromwell]

Interesting Steve how the rise of the Snp is all down to Thatcher,new labour and the lib dems,no mention of old labour or the Wurzel effect.

What you don't get Steve is people have seen through the emperors new clothes of labour in all its guises,the tories are a bunch of bastards usually but at least it's there and upfront,that's not not so with labour new or old they parrot their disapproval but privately have or admit they would've pursued similar policies.

It will take some monumental effort to reverse that decline or the scepticism of the traditional labour support who deserted them.

[Thomas]

Except the SNP in Scotland who took many decades in spite of it being virtually handed to them on a plate by Thatcher, New Labour, and the Lib Dems.

I dont have time just now to go into a major discussion of the political history of the snp and scotland throughout the last century , but as ever this is a major sideswerve of yours with a grain of truth.

The SNP began at the height of british identity in scotland , and while the two party system was at its peak , and a whole host of other issues that contributed to the long hard slog to get to where they are today.

A new party , or parties in england , wont face many of those issues. So the comparison and dismissal  of a rise of new parties in your country with the timeframe of the snp rise to power is a nonsense as ever.

We have touched on your nonsensical reinterpretation of political history before....where you lament labours fall from grace and blame thatcher and new labour as the sole contributors ( which is a nonsense)but i have no idea why you blame the lib dems ?

The lib dem vote over the last thirty years in scotland has remained relatively static and minor , ranging from around 7 to 13% , with their power base concentrated in the north west of scotland.

The majority of the snp vote over the years (but not exclusively) has come from labour  , so what on earth  has the lib dems got to do with anything in scotland?

You seem to be casting off left wing english bleats about issues primarily in england that you dislike about the tories and lib dems , and then applying them to scotland in your ususal deranged manner to give a theory for the rise of the snp and fall of your own lamentable party while as ever refusing to look at the fact labour  , not the tories , thatcher or the lib dems , and their lies and duplicity are the architects of their own destruction in scotland?

All this though is irrelevant to the rise of a new modern political party in england today , where i firmly agree with dynamis there is more than enough scope and opportunity for it to happen.

The idea of course FPTP will last forever and labour tory tennis continue unabated is of course laughable , as scotland has proven.

It was only 7 years ago labour were confident they would remain untouchable as the party for scotland at westminster , and 14 years ago at holyrood .

[Borg Refinery]

So you've never heard of the BXP then. And you concede PC and the SNP did plenty.

Ok, have it your way srv. Carry on deluding yourself.

[srb7677]

Balance of probabilities;

Labour changing which takes 30-40 years by which time you'l be what, 80 or 90?

Or new parties as in Europe which we've seen CAN win now - BXP etc. First Green MP's... Etc.

Just have a bit of faith but not blind faith in Labour's honking jamrag 'uckin spunkbubbles.

This is like pulling teeth, but for the umpteenth time, they don't have the barrier of FPTP in Europe.

If you imagine some new popular party that is everything you want it to be is suddenly going to emerge and sweep the board - which itself presupposes that everyone else wants the same things as you from a party - then you are living in a delusional cloud cuckoo land. Aint gonna happen. Certainly not under FPTP.

In spite of decades of trying, the Greens have never managed to get more than one MP. UKIP only ever had one and this only because he defected from the Tories. Respect never got any. Even the Lib Dems are struggling to gain enough MPs to fill a minibus. No one has ever come remotely close to breaking the barrier of FPTP in spite of decades of trying.

Except the SNP in Scotland who took many decades in spite of it being virtually handed to them on a plate by Thatcher, New Labour, and the Lib Dems.

[Borg Refinery]

Balance of probabilities;

Labour changing which takes 30-40 years by which time you'l be what, 80 or 90?

Or new parties as in Europe which we've seen CAN win now - BXP etc. First Green MP's... Etc.

Just have a bit of faith but not blind faith in Labour's honking jamrag 'uckin spunkbubbles.