The Usual Standard of Faragian Hypocrisy

[Borg Refinery]

This sounds like a muddled rant here dyno , and very little to do with what i was saying to you. Whatever the internal party handbagging  within the snp , my point is your heros in the snp are in a much weaker position than your hated enemy farage is politically speaking in terms of their main reason for existence.

I have always said i prefered salmond to sturgeon , he wears his heart on his sleeve and fights with passion. Sturgeon though in my opinion was the more dangerous of the two in political terms , far more ruthless and cold.

...but we are talking about farage , and comparing the strategy that won ukip the brexit ref and lost the snp the indyref , and i still look on in envy at farages tactics.

The snp need to drop the dreamy wishy washy lefty loser attitude , and start fighting extremely dirty like farage did , and then we might actaully win something of value like a feckin referendum , instead of presideing over what is at best a feckin talking shop , and sending a load of mps down to your parliament for essentially nothing.

A lot of scottish are now calling for the snp to do a sinn fein and refuse to go to westminster. By taking away consent to westminsters authority over us , we make it harder for them to control us.

We wont win playing the nice guy.

I like that idea a lot. You see to me that is honest and not 'playing dirty', maybe our definitions vary?

I have told you this many a time , the lefts idealism and fantasy mor often than nought gets in the way of reality , hence why they are often out of power. ( i say this although the snp and wider yes movement are indeed a broad church of many political views , and the snp centrist , there are many left wing fantasists among us)

You are entitled to your opinion, which I do respect but obviously can't agree with. I disagree with your characterization of me in the very first place, which is ok as this place surely thrives on stereotypes. 

[Thomas]

Planet Dynamis as always of course.  Someone told me I wasn't living in reality and I nearly fell off my unicorn FFS.

Anyway, when the shat hat the fan, Salmond came up clean whereas the others in the SNP largely abandoned an principled honest man. They crapped themselves completely and some still do at the thought of him successfully reentering politics.

F**k that. I'm with him all the way, a man I've always liked even if he was a wee daftie for going on RT and other pointless PR stunts.

No, I disagree. If you play rough you still have to be honest IMHO, it didn't work for Killary Klingon did it? She tried to play dirty and rightly lost.

I believe in God and believe he loves honesty and the honest hypocrite and Prodigal over the proud Pharisee or the proud witch who revels in doing bad.

I think he favoured Salmond and that's all the proof you need. You said "what price freedom".

I return the question to you, my friend.

(I believe you are a good guy who doesn't in his heart believe in being bad or evil or doing any bad thing to win, whatever the cost).

This sounds like a muddled rant here dyno , and very little to do with what i was saying to you. Whatever the internal party handbagging  within the snp , my point is your heros in the snp are in a much weaker position than your hated enemy farage is politically speaking in terms of their main reason for existence.

I have always said i prefered salmond to sturgeon , he wears his heart on his sleeve and fights with passion. Sturgeon though in my opinion was the more dangerous of the two in political terms , far more ruthless and cold.

...but we are talking about farage , and comparing the strategy that won ukip the brexit ref and lost the snp the indyref , and i still look on in envy at farages tactics.

The snp need to drop the dreamy wishy washy lefty loser attitude , and start fighting extremely dirty like farage did , and then we might actaully win something of value like a feckin referendum , instead of presideing over what is at best a feckin talking shop , and sending a load of mps down to your parliament for essentially nothing.

A lot of scottish are now calling for the snp to do a sinn fein and refuse to go to westminster. By taking away consent to westminsters authority over us , we make it harder for them to control us.

We wont win playing the nice guy.

I have told you this many a time , the lefts idealism and fantasy mor often than nought gets in the way of reality , hence why they are often out of power. ( i say this although the snp and wider yes movement are indeed a broad church of many political views , and the snp centrist , there are many left wing fantasists among us)

[Borg Refinery]

Well i dont know what planet you are on today dynamis

Planet Dynamis as always of course.  Someone told me I wasn't living in reality and I nearly fell off my unicorn FFS.

Anyway, when the shat hat the fan, Salmond came up clean whereas the others in the SNP largely abandoned an principled honest man. They crapped themselves completely and some still do at the thought of him successfully reentering politics.

F**k that. I'm with him all the way, a man I've always liked even if he was a wee daftie for going on RT and other pointless PR stunts.

No, I disagree. If you play rough you still have to be honest IMHO, it didn't work for Killary Klingon did it? She tried to play dirty and rightly lost.

I believe in God and believe he loves honesty and the honest hypocrite and Prodigal over the proud Pharisee or the proud witch who revels in doing bad.

I think he favoured Salmond and that's all the proof you need. You said "what price freedom".

I return the question to you, my friend.

(I believe you are a good guy who doesn't in his heart believe in being bad or evil or doing any bad thing to win, whatever the cost).

[Thomas]

Mate, what did he do at the EU before he waved his little flags and gave the silly speech?

What did he do in the election when it cape to the crunch?

What did he give his reluctant assent to/to which deal; as it was in his words "better tha being forced into a 2nd ref".

Look, you're a clever bloke, iyou tell me how it must seem to a skeptic, come on now.

Well i dont know what planet you are on today dynamis , but i think personally farage has played a blinder over this whole brexit episode.

He had both labour and tory shitting themselves at  election time as ukip got closer and closer to the FPTP breakthrough we all knew was coming  , which in turn forced cameron into that fatefull decision to hold a brexit referendum . At the same time , he also hamstrung labour over the brexit issue , making them look the weak and foolish arseholes we all knew they were back in 2015 when milliband chickened out supporting a brexit ref , and even the liberals got in on the act taking the piss out of labour for not having the guts to face the electorate over the eu.

He got his referendum without so much as getting elected into your parliament , and then went on as we know to win , and even now , he lurks in the background looking over johnsons shoulder and giving the tories the sweats about every intricate decision they make over brexit.

In a way i envy him. The snp did the opposite to farage and look where that got us , we won elections and got into government but lost the indy ref.

I would rather be in farages position than sturgeons presently. Farage has more power out of your parliament than nicola sturgeon has ever had in ours as first minister.

The snp should be taking notes on how to fight extremely dirty and win.

I would rather be a dirty winner like farage , than some holier than thou loser like salmond and sturgeon.

No feckin prizes for coming second.

[Thomas]

If I remember right Farage was not in favour of the WA. He was pleased to escape the EU parliament as a sign that at last things were moving. I believe he is still ready to hold the governments feet to the fire if they renege.

Aye toots i was just about to say this to dyno that i thought farage wasnt happy about the WA?

[T00ts]

No, not really. If you're referring to my voting Corbyn in 2019 it was just a less-worse option thing, but it turns out in many ways he was worse (the child care homes thing with Hodge..and the article printed in his paper by P.I.E).

So no, none of the above really. Like I said and staunchly reiterated many times, we need new parties as in Europe and PR to replace FPTP; and my pref would be an English version of the SNP most of all.

.

But in the meantime? For my book we grit our teeth we pull together and try hard to work within what we have.

[Borg Refinery]

No, not really. If you're referring to my voting Corbyn in 2019 it was just a less-worse option thing, but it turns out in many ways he was worse (the child care homes thing with Hodge..and the article printed in his paper by P.I.E).

So no, none of the above really. Like I said and staunchly reiterated many times, we need new parties as in Europe and PR to replace FPTP; and my pref would be an English version of the SNP most of all.

.

[papasmurf]

Some of us patiently wait for light to dawn and the realisation that you never get to the end of a rainbow.

I patiently wait for the light to dawn on people just how bad Tory governments are.

[T00ts]

There's all kind of complexities to it as with everything, but essentially it does boil down to the complete unbelievable hypocrisy and untrustworthiness of the Tories and the total sellout of the BXP.

These seem like undeniable facts to me.

Even given his previous record as foreign sec and mayor?

An assertion not shared by many here, incl many Brexiters.

And so did Thatcher and many others, they all tried 'heavy reform', Wison did in his day too or so I read

True.

I think many share those ideals.

We need to tighten our greenbelt.

Yes, well with a govt intent on deregulation and other fun things what do folk expect.

I am flattered that you went to such great lengths to dissect my post. I guess I have a bit of an advantage over you in that I did live through Wilson's shambles of a government and many other Labour Governments (that's if you can call them that) but you still don't really understand and possibly never will. You perhaps still believe in the Labour hue of Utopia where everyone is equal, everyone fits into the same square box, where no-one but those in Government and their friends have the opportunities to shine or have the best of material things. Where everyone is measured to the same level of mediocrity and those that shine are levelled down and those at the bottom are simply forgotten. A Utopia where the state owns everything and wrecks it as a result, by letting Unions run it into the ground. Why? Because it seems fair whereas in fact it's one great big con. Labour has never truly helped the so called working man their whole principal is that the working man should stay just where he is to be looked down on and manipulated.

I don't blame you at all. It's what you have been persuaded is right. I grew up in a staunch Labour family and thank goodness saw the light early on. My parents were horrified. You are entitled to your beliefs. Some of us patiently wait for light to dawn and the realisation that you never get to the end of a rainbow.

[Borchester]

I do have a 3rd. That they look more carefully at urban sprawl. We are eating up farmland for housing which I really feel could be very short-sighted.

I imagine that the farmland in your part of the world is better maintained than it is in mine Toots. I don't know who performs the calculations, but the general feeling is that there is more wildlife in London than outside and that the last people to be left in charge of our green and pleasant land are the subsidy junkies of the farming community.

To my way of thinking, the best idea would be to make all future housing at least four bedroom detached properties sited on at least 20 rods of land. And, well that would be it really. I would like to think that would be the end of trendy environmentalism but I don't suppose anything will ever end trendy environmentalism. Still, it will be a start.

[Borg Refinery]

I find it interesting that you see things so black and white or at least that's how it seems.

There's all kind of complexities to it as with everything, but essentially it does boil down to the complete unbelievable hypocrisy and untrustworthiness of the Tories and the total sellout of the BXP.

These seem like undeniable facts to me.

BJ is not a man I would socialise with but I still have to grant that when elected he seemed the only possibility of realising what the country voted for.

Even given his previous record as foreign sec and mayor?

He has his faults of course, who doesn't, but at present we are still on course to fulfil the nation's demands on the EU.

An assertion not shared by many here, incl many Brexiters.

In that I support him. On Covid I really believe that the rot in Government is not necessarily in the Ministers but in those who feed them their info.  The 'Sir Humphreys' who quietly run the show most of whom are entrenched for life with agendas of their own. Inefficiency is something successive governments have always been accused of no matter what colour of hypocrisy is seated in power. If it comes about, I will applaud a total upheaval of Whitehall putting those prepared to move forward without the ties to old ideology in place. Blair in his time did much to make Whitehall political - of course now fiercely denied - and it is still holding us back.

And so did Thatcher and many others, they all tried 'heavy reform', Wison did in his day too or so I read

You see, truth like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. I see my truth completely different to you, but then I understand that 10 witnesses to an event will reveal 11 versions of what happened so it's hardly surprising. The thing is that all versions have a degree of truth. No-one possesses the whole.

True.

I have two current demands of Government at present.
1) They get us out of the EU completely.
2) They do their best to balance the threat of Covid to the health of the nation while keeping us afloat enough to face next year.

I think many share those ideals.

I do have a 3rd. That they look more carefully at urban sprawl. We are eating up farmland for housing which I really feel could be very short-sighted.

We need to tighten our greenbelt.

Yes, well with a govt intent on deregulation and other fun things what do folk expect.

[Borg Refinery]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1229661/Nigel-Farage-Boris-Johnson-Withdrawal-Agreement-Brexit-news

Just to clarify what toots mentioned earlier . Farage said it was an awful deal from day one and that we were putting a lot of trust in the Tories

Mate, what did he do at the EU before he waved his little flags and gave the silly speech?

What did he do in the election when it cape to the crunch?

What did he give his reluctant assent to/to which deal; as it was in his words "better tha being forced into a 2nd ref".

Look, you're a clever bloke, iyou tell me how it must seem to a skeptic, come on now.

[Streetwalker]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1229661/Nigel-Farage-Boris-Johnson-Withdrawal-Agreement-Brexit-news

Just to clarify what toots mentioned earlier . Farage said it was an awful deal from day one and that we were putting a lot of trust in the Tories

[T00ts]

..So you concede I'm right or are you being stubborn?   

Good morning to you too.. not hung over, but I always get out on the wrong side of the bed, even Thomas calls me a moany so and so, but I'm not wrong 'bout this!

If the Brexiters had acted with a bit more integrity, none of this would bother me so much. What bothers me is when folks like Shemp and Skywalker bleat on about Westmonster all being the same, then vote bloody UKIP and BXP.

..like, really? How were you expecting that to turn out? When I point to their predictabe disappointment and say look guys, nothing personal but what did you think would happen with known liars (and crooks like Arron Banks!) running the show.

Am I so wrong to point this out?

It's like putting Keith Vaz or better still Margaret Hodge in charge of Brexit. imaging they were Brexiters. Or even Diane Abbott.

Borchester's words on Boris: "amoral", "dishonest" then says that's "just what we need" to beat the EU, as somehow he's going to act honourably ( 😆).

I'm laughing at the absurdity of this as I write it, but I can only follow what I perceive as the truthful narrative to its conclusion (or concussion if sheepy has his way and headbutts me.   )

I find it interesting that you see things so black and white or at least that's how it seems. BJ is not a man I would socialise with but I still have to grant that when elected he seemed the only possibility of realising what the country voted for. He has his faults of course, who doesn't, but at present we are still on course to fulfil the nation's demands on the EU. In that I support him. On Covid I really believe that the rot in Government is not necessarily in the Ministers but in those who feed them their info.  The 'Sir Humphreys' who quietly run the show most of whom are entrenched for life with agendas of their own. Inefficiency is something successive governments have always been accused of no matter what colour of hypocrisy is seated in power. If it comes about, I will applaud a total upheaval of Whitehall putting those prepared to move forward without the ties to old ideology in place. Blair in his time did much to make Whitehall political - of course now fiercely denied - and it is still holding us back.

You see, truth like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. I see my truth completely different to you, but then I understand that 10 witnesses to an event will reveal 11 versions of what happened so it's hardly surprising. The thing is that all versions have a degree of truth. No-one possesses the whole.

I have two current demands of Government at present.
1) They get us out of the EU completely.
2) They do their best to balance the threat of Covid to the health of the nation while keeping us afloat enough to face next year.

I do have a 3rd. That they look more carefully at urban sprawl. We are eating up farmland for housing which I really feel could be very short-sighted.

[Borg Refinery]

Good morning! Did you get out of bed on the wrong side or just hung over? Farage is like a bad penny  but he has his uses when he puts his mind to it.

..So you concede I'm right or are you being stubborn?   

Good morning to you too.. not hung over, but I always get out on the wrong side of the bed, even Thomas calls me a moany so and so, but I'm not wrong 'bout this!

If the Brexiters had acted with a bit more integrity, none of this would bother me so much. What bothers me is when folks like Shemp and Skywalker bleat on about Westmonster all being the same, then vote bloody UKIP and BXP.

..like, really? How were you expecting that to turn out? When I point to their predictabe disappointment and say look guys, nothing personal but what did you think would happen with known liars (and crooks like Arron Banks!) running the show.

Am I so wrong to point this out?

It's like putting Keith Vaz or better still Margaret Hodge in charge of Brexit. imaging they were Brexiters. Or even Diane Abbott.

Borchester's words on Boris: "amoral", "dishonest" then says that's "just what we need" to beat the EU, as somehow he's going to act honourably ( 😆).

I'm laughing at the absurdity of this as I write it, but I can only follow what I perceive as the truthful narrative to its conclusion (or concussion if sheepy has his way and headbutts me.   )