Brexit: Boris Johnson misses EU deadline to explain breach of international law

[GerryT]

CLASSIC !!

But the UK can't pass a bill without breaking international law.

What are you talking about, the uk can do what it wants also. Nobody will try stop the UK passing the IMB, like Hungary its your own business.
And the EU can do what they want which in that circumstance would be to look to take the UK to court and pull down the shutters on possibly more.
The EU has written to Hungary and lets see what the people of Hungary decide to do, its their business.

[Nick]

If Hungary wishes to do what it's doing it's their business.

CLASSIC !!

But the UK can't pass a bill without breaking international law.

[GerryT]

Well ACTUALLY the process is slightly worse that I said
https://www.matrixlaw.co.uk/resource/possible-united-kingdom-negotiate-trade-agreement-eu-ftas-third-countries-new-legal-status-within-wto-part-eu/
You have to remember this is a missive from the missus of that warmongering shithead Blair, but it makes it clear that the negotiation of trade agreements is a matter over which the EU has sole competence.

As the EU have a habit of following Big Brother's example of rewriting treaties (they call it consolidating) so that Oceania Has Always Been At War With EastAsia If You Read The Consolidated Treaty as opposed to the microfiche original, and I really cannot be f**king arsed to see how things were post 1973 pre Maastricht, I will not bother going there. What is clear is that as soon as Maastricht invented an EU we were totally prevented from doing any trade negotiations as stated in hte consolidated treaties and we might have been screwed before - indeed from my reading of the 1960's Wilson White Paper and the 1970's Heath one i think we were, as much had to be sorted before 1.1.73
The Bitch In The Wig's Mouthpiece claims the withdrawal agreement freed us from that treaty requirement but did we ever get that WA approved with all the f**king treachery put about by that bastard speaker and his evil cohorts ? I don't know

The UK after triggering Art50 could the next day go around the world and agree it's own FTA's. They wouldn't be signed or come into force until the UK left, but they could have been fully agreed.
Secondly as a EU member the UK could have blocked every FTA the EU tried to sign, until the UK were happy with the FTA's being agreed to. Your missing the fact the UK were part of the team out there negotiating all the FTA's the EU signed and have. You didn't singularly control the process but you most definitely had a seat at the table.

[GerryT]

Ah, ok. I didn't know some of that about Irl - thanks. I'm confused about what you're saying America does though..?
Are you suggesting the US doesn't tax its own companies operating abroad?
https://usglobaltax.com/pages/companies-and-trusts
This seems to insinuate otherwise, but more info would be helpful here about specifics.
Either way, this is what I'm pointing to very specifically -
https://www.europaunited.eu/ireland-the-worlds-biggest-tax-haven/

USA multinationals funnel money to their subsidiaries in IRL and onto say the caymen Islands. IRL doesn't recgonise this as an Irish company doing work abroad and the Caymen's don't do any reporting so USA multinationals are using this loophole to not pay corporation tax. This IRL law was changed in 2016 and from the end off this yr this inflow will be seen as taxable income and will be subject to IRL corporate tax. As this wasn't a source of income for IRL revenue it wasn't expected to cause a hit, but surprisingly more USA multinationals have selected IRL for their IP tax base and in IRL we have seen an increase in revenue take.

But this is a prime example of how the EU does NOT take a countries sovereignty or the ability to make local decisions. IRL has a low corporation tax rate and it uses this to attract Multinational companies, but it's only one means of attracting these companies. IRL recognised it's future was in high tech, pharma, semiconductor, research, data centres, finance. With little natural resources and a small island the future was and is in educating it's workforce. My kids have just stared 3rd level, the secondary school they came from would have the majority going to 3rd level. Most of them will end up doing a masters. IRL saw no future in production as low cost economies are near impossible to compete with. So I think our low corporation tax rates are here to stay.

So what repercussions did those liars face then?

Minister for agriculture Dara Calleary and Senator Jerry Buttimer broke the c19 restriction playing a game of golf & dinner after, they decided to resign (normal talk for go before we bullet you).
Agriculture Minister Barry Cowen had a drink driving controversy and he was sacked for that.
You just don't see as much bare faced lies, politicians are called out on claims they make so their more careful.

Irrelevant, patronising lecture. I know how the EU works and I've been carefully following what's going on, thanks. Are you telling me they weren't threatening to suspend Hungary's membership then rewound on that threat or not?

It's not irrelevant, you said why hasn't the EU taken action against Hungary, Hungary is a sovereign state, the EU is not. If Hungary wishes to do what it's doing it's their business. The EU won't interfere in domestic politics. But the EU has indicated it's objections to what's going on, if things continue you can expect the EU to take a measured response, there's talk of removing EU funding and that can be escalated depending on how Hungary responds. If the Eu went around throwing out threats there would be no EU left, these things take time and diplomacy but in the log run if Hungary continues with it's chosen path then you can expect to see Hungary outside the EU as their goals would be different to the other member states.

[johnofgwent]

No thats not what he said, this is what he said

You need to read again. JoG is suggesting that being a member of the EU the UK couldn't strike their own FTA's. He is not talking about the UK not being able to sign a FTA during the brexit process.

Well ACTUALLY the process is slightly worse that I said
https://www.matrixlaw.co.uk/resource/possible-united-kingdom-negotiate-trade-agreement-eu-ftas-third-countries-new-legal-status-within-wto-part-eu/
You have to remember this is a missive from the missus of that warmongering shithead Blair, but it makes it clear that the negotiation of trade agreements is a matter over which the EU has sole competence.

As the EU have a habit of following Big Brother's example of rewriting treaties (they call it consolidating) so that Oceania Has Always Been At War With EastAsia If You Read The Consolidated Treaty as opposed to the microfiche original, and I really cannot be fucking arsed to see how things were post 1973 pre Maastricht, I will not bother going there. What is clear is that as soon as Maastricht invented an EU we were totally prevented from doing any trade negotiations as stated in hte consolidated treaties and we might have been screwed before - indeed from my reading of the 1960's Wilson White Paper and the 1970's Heath one i think we were, as much had to be sorted before 1.1.73
The Bitch In The Wig's Mouthpiece claims the withdrawal agreement freed us from that treaty requirement but did we ever get that WA approved with all the fucking treachery put about by that bastard speaker and his evil cohorts ? I don't know

[Borg Refinery]

To loose your seat on the front bench is how it's put or loosing your seat. We don't have a whip. Just terminology.

But one was reelected were they not...

"Juncker is a pro, ignoring the antics and staying on point. "

Agreed.

"But I have to disagree on Varadkar, he's a young politician, doing a good job as minister for health and the getting the equivalent to the PM job '17 to lead IRL during a very difficult time. He very quickly went about making NI a key component in the Brexit talks, he lobbied friends in the US, he put in infrastructure projects to modify ports to take super RoRo ships and also commissioned new ships for those ports. That was all done and dusted and now in operation. He also pegged the UK letting them firmly know IRL is firmly committed to the EU and NI wouldn't be a pawn in their game. Finally he was the key to agreeing the WA when Johnson visited IRL, soon after the agreement was signed, securing the island of IRL trade wise. All counted he did an excellent job. If I had a criticism of him it would be he sometimes scores a point when there's no need to, as there's no gain. Hard to explain but he might say or something that would have been better if he didn't. He's only 41 so time to round those corners off."

As you say, a bit inexperienced, ok.

"What scandals, if there's so many give an couple of examples,"

Jeez read the link dude.

"UK politics is very different, following brexit it's hard to understand that they can come out with bare faced lies and not small one's. They still do it, you don't see that level of 'miss direction' to put it mildly. But it's the response, UK politicians don't seem to pay the price, it all just continues.
I've said Irish politics isn't perfect, no country is. "

Ok, just your opinion.
 
"You prob don't understand, in IRL a Irish company is taxed on it's income from business it does in IRL and abroad, all it's global income is counted. A non irish company is not taxed on it's foreign derived income as IRL expects the country the company comes from will tax that company in the country the company is registered in. America doesn't do that, so companies take advantage of that. This is not evasion its avoidance and its perfectly legal. If USA is so worried all it need to is change its tax laws so a US companies turnover in the USA and other countries is taxed in USA, problem solved.
As for corporate tax rates, IRL is 12.5% second lowest in Europe, UK is 19% fourth lowest in Europe. IRL doesn't do the deals like 80m to Nissan, which was denied by the UK Govt until it was pulled out of them, so we don't know what the UK rate really is."

Ah, ok. I didn't know some of that about Irl - thanks. I'm confused about what you're saying America does though..?

Are you suggesting the US doesn't tax its own companies operating abroad?

https://usglobaltax.com/pages/companies-and-trusts

This seems to insinuate otherwise, but more info would be helpful here about specifics.

Either way, this is what I'm pointing to very specifically -

https://www.europaunited.eu/ireland-the-worlds-biggest-tax-haven/

Ireland – the world's biggest tax haven?
Cathal Kerins

Is Ireland is the world's biggest tax haven?. In the space of three months alone in 2015, one company funnelled €300 billion through Ireland to avoid taxes. That was actually about €7 billion more than Ireland's entire GDP for the entire year. Yet Ireland seems to be in denial about this. Common consensus in Ireland is that it is actually a good thing for Ireland to be a tax haven. Europa United's Cathal Kerins explains why he thinks it is not.

Apple Scandal

A good place to start is at the recent Apple tax scandal.

On 29 August 2016, after a two-year investigation, the European Commission announced: "Ireland granted illegal tax benefits to Apple". The Commission ordered Apple to pay €13 billion in back taxes to the Irish state. This would have amounted to over €20 billion due to the Irish state after penalties and interest is considered. This approximates to around 10% of Irish GDP in 2014.

It was the largest corporation tax fine in history.

However, the Irish government formally appealed the ruling, claiming that Apple had not broken the law. That's correct, it was not technically illegal under Irish law for Apple to pay approximately 0.005% tax on €110.8 billion of taxable profits made in the years from 2004 to 2014.

Despite the enormity of this figure, it actually excludes the profits made by Apple from 1990-2003 when this agreement was first set up. So the real figure, which was not subject to review, is worryingly far higher.

Leprechaun economics

Just how much higher, is terrifying. In Q1 of 2015, alone (the month after the investigation conveniently ended), Apple shifted €300 billion, through Ireland, in the biggest ever base erosion and profit shifting (BEPS) action ever undertaken in the history of the World.

This resulted in Ireland's national GDP rising by 34.4% in the year. Paul Krugman, the Nobel Prize-winning economist coined the phrase "leprechaun economics" in reference to this single action when describing Ireland as the World's biggest tax haven.

The Irish government then had to redact its own economic statistics, which normally should be available to us, the public, in order to protect the identity of Apple. That's also right. The Irish government would not release economic data, which is obliged to release to its citizens, because it wanted to protect the anonymity of a corporation using Ireland as a tax haven.

Captured State

It is a stark reality that one of the world's largest, wealthiest, strongest and technologically advanced corporations in the World can pay less than 2% tax for over three decades. And that it is actively aided and abetted in doing so by the Irish state.

This is the same Irish state that says it cannot afford social housing, cannot afford universal healthcare, cannot afford to reduce university fees, cannot afford to build adequate public transport infrastructure. But coincidentally, can afford to fight large corporations' taxation battles for them, and create nuanced tax avoidance instruments to help them to pay little or no tax.

2020 University College Dublin undergraduate fees range from €5,880 to €7,574 per year. This does not include the student levy of €254. For comparison, in Germany and France, university is free, there is only a student levy of around €250 per year.

However, Apple is only one company. Indeed, tech is not the only industry to which Ireland is a tax haven or captive. Other industries include:

Aircraft leasing

Aircraft leasing, where special tax treatments allow many lessors to operate tax-free. This might sound arcane, but consider that 14 of the 15 of the World's largest aircraft leasing companies make Ireland their home. Irish-based leasing businesses manage more than 5,000 aircraft in total worldwide, representing more than $130 billion in assets. That's more than 50% of all the leased aircraft Worldwide. Yet, sadly... no tax.

Funds

Or "vulture funds" who used children's charities in their "corporate structure" to avoid tax on Irish property speculation. These vulture funds were responsible for a significant amount of home repossessions in Ireland during the recession, and the crazy thing is, the government removed regulation on these firms; therefore, they were not subject to any regulation by the Irish Central Bank whatsoever. This is all while Ireland suffered from the worst homelessness crisis in the history of the State. The Irish state has since toughened restrictions on some funds, though not all.

Special Purpose "Tax avoidance" Vehicles (SPVs)

Or special purpose vehicles (SPVs) and section 110 of Ireland's Tax Consolidation Act which allows for a special tax regime that enables SPVs to pay no Irish taxes, VAT, or duties whatsoever. It came to light in June 2016, that US debt funds used Section 110 SPVs to dodge Irish taxes on €80 billion.

In most financial centres, many SPVs are illegal because they allow bankruptcy remote. This means companies can move assets into a company, let the company go bust and it doesn't affect them. Basically, it turns the corporate veil into a corporate slab of concrete. Furthermore, you'd think this makes them subject to more regulation. However, SPVs are largely unregulated in Ireland and, as such, are used to facilitate illegal transactions, like those facilitated repeatedly in Ireland's IFSC in 2016-2018 by prohibited Russian banks.

Once these illegal transactions caught international news headlines, the Irish government updated it's tax law to include a new instrument that allowed for greater anonymity. It was as if they almost gave the game away.

These instruments and the state policy of facilitating BEPS means that large corporations pay effective tax rates of between 0% and 2.5%. The scale of the facilitation by Ireland is evident in the graph which indicates how Ireland is a bigger tax haven than Bermuda and all the Caribbean Islands.



It is frightening, the extent to which the Irish government goes to provide large US investors with lucrative tax free profits, instead of seeking the best way for Irish citizens to be housed, provided with healthcare and infrastructure.

You'd think that when a country increases its GDP by 34.4% in one year (i.e. 2015) that there would be noticeable benefits for its citizens. Unfortunately, this was and is not the case, as Ireland, suffers from chronic lack of public infrastructure and public services as well as, high living expenses and worsening wealth inequality as a direct result.

This means that the benefit of the tax haven regime that Ireland operates, benefits only a privileged few. And the real beneficiaries are not even Irish at all. They are the ultra-wealthy owners of corporations, most of whom, live in America.

The abuses in Ireland are so large, that the US Senate set up an investigation, under the Senate's Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations to review the malpractices undertaken in Ireland. This embarrassed the EU which had been allowing (and still does allow) the malpractices to continue.

In fact, one reason the EU hadn't done anything, was because it can't do anything. The EU is powerless to stop Ireland because taxes are the responsibility of each member state alone, not the EU.

This is why the EU Commission's finding was successfully appealed by Ireland. However, the €13 billion amount did not even amount to a fine. The €13 billion is only what would be owed to the Irish Exchequer under the normal application of Ireland's own tax rates (i.e. the already low 12.5% rate). And it amounts to over €20 billion when tax penalties are included. This amount was due to Ireland, not the EU.

"But it's the economy stoopid"

Many people who work in the finance and legal industry who benefit and the politicians who listen to them maintain that this is good for the Irish economy. It is undeniable that many businesses have moved their European headquarters to Ireland (it must be non-US HQs because the US introduced measures to curb tax malpractices originating from Ireland for US companies). This is why Facebook, LinkedIn, Google etc have their "EMEA" (Europe, Middle-East, Africa) headquarters in Ireland, but no US ones.

The problem is that the economy becomes imbalanced and two-streamed. There is a ballooning financial services sector that disproportionately attracts investment, talent and profits and as such, the imbalance actually damages the other sectors of the economy.

wiki:

Ireland has been labelled a tax haven or corporate tax haven in multiple reports, an allegation which the state rejects.[a][2] Ireland's base erosion and profit shifting (BEPS) tools give some foreign corporates § Effective tax rates of 0% to 2.5% on global profits re-routed to Ireland via their tax treaty network.[c][d] Ireland's aggregate § Effective tax rates for foreign corporates is 2.2–4.5%. Ireland's BEPS tools are the world's largest BEPS flows, exceed the entire Caribbean system, and artificially inflate the US–EU trade deficit.[4][5] Ireland's tax-free QIAIF & L–QIAIF regimes, and Section 110 SPVs, enable foreign investors to avoid Irish taxes on Irish assets, and can be combined with Irish BEPS tools to create confidential routes out of the Irish corporate tax system.[e] As these structures are OECD–whitelisted, Ireland's laws and regulations allow the use of data protection and data privacy provisions, and opt-outs from filing of public accounts, to obscure their effects. There is arguable evidence that Ireland acts as a § Captured state, fostering tax strategies.[7][8]

"Poor example, the Govt weren't spreding lies and the no campaign had all sorts of religious crackpots that are ordinary joe soaps. Thankfully the referendum passed and women in IRL now have a choice.

But I do get your point, you will find instances of politicians in IRL lying, but its at a different level and the repercussions in IRL are far more sever."

So what repercussions did those liars face then?

"The best thing for Johnson is to get out, he'd probably try and do that given half a chance. He's written his name into the history book for getting the UK out of the EU. He doesn't care one bit about the UK, only England. An economic hit to the country is no worry for him, he really doesn't care. I wouldn't be surprised if Johnson leaves around next March before the sh1t starts to hit."

Pretty much.

There's alot of confusion about the EU, its a group of 27 countries that together decide how to align certain rules/regulations/laws to allow for free trade. This is not done to this level of integration seen anywhere else on the planet. Because this alignment crosses into things like environmental protection or workers rights it is incorrectly seen as some for of "government", it's not. The EU has no jurisdiction over any EU country other than the jurisdiction given to it by the 27 member states. If Organ wants to get into bed with Russia. It's only if Hungary's actions breach a EU agreed by all rule wil the EU do something about it.

Irrelevant, patronising lecture. I know how the EU works and I've been carefully following what's going on, thanks. Are you telling me they weren't threatening to suspend Hungary's membership then rewound on that threat or not?

[GerryT]

NO, what @johnofgwent is saying is we weren't allowed to sign FTA's until we left. Strangely enough that's exactly what he said. Read the lines not what you think is between the lines.

No thats not what he said, this is what he said

The only reason The United Kingdom has no trade agreement, free or otherwise, with those countries is that the bloody EU took away our right to organise our own. It's one of the reasons those of us who wanted out voted out. We're fed up with Brussels dictating how it's going to be.
If your criticism is that its been a while since we had one, fair enough. But that's not what you said is it

You need to read again. JoG is suggesting that being a member of the EU the UK couldn't strike their own FTA's. He is not talking about the UK not being able to sign a FTA during the brexit process.

[GerryT]

No, Canada isn%u2019t the closest commonwealth country, even excluding the 2 in the EU.

What is, down to the equator to Nigeria or Ghana, that's prob a gold mine trade wise for the UK.

These countries are in the same regions as the ones %u2018invaded%u2019 by France, Spain, Portugal and The Netherlands. Do their indiscretions smell sweeter than the UK%u2019s? Having been to countries like Kenya and Uganda on business where I have been told many times that they are looking forward to opening up trade with the UK. Even going as far as to say they would love to go back to the colonial days where there was little or no corruption.

I'm sure they would, I'm sure America, Canada, Australia etc would also love to go back to being raped by the UK. Pure delusion. And yes these countries will be happy to trade with the UK, you have a far larger market, a higher value market that pays more than at home. It doesn't work the other way. Their markets are tiny and they won't pay the prices UK manufacturers would want. If that's the plan it's poorly thought out.

As for trade with Australia, do you have any information that suggests the UK won%u2019t conclude the deal before 1st Jan? Because from what I can see it will be agreed very soon. And as @johnofgwent has pointed out, we weren%u2019t allowed to sign anything until we were out.

Well considering trade talks with Australia started in June of this year do you have any information to show a trade deal will be struck in the next 7 weeks. The UK could have started trade talks with all countries at any point but they couldn't sign them. That didn't stop the UK having them lined up and ready to go.

The only big deal the UK has is Japan, have you been watching the details of that being reported, look it up, makes for interesting reading. For example the UK deal allows the UK to fill up only those goods quotas the EU has with Japan in their deal, so if the EU is allowed to sell 1b of beef but only sells 800m then the UK can sell 200m. The deal doesn't cover all goods.Secondly the anti govt subsidies that the UK signed up to are far more stringent than the ones the EU were looking for from the UK in the level playing field, that's a real funny one.

Your point suggesting the  UK is a little boy in with the big boys is quite pathetic, it%u2019s a measure of the world economies not against selected countries and I don%u2019t see Ireland on it either. Only Germany out of the EU above us, France just scraping into the top 10.

China: $29.47T
United States: $22.32T
India: $12.36T
Japan: $5.89T
Germany: $4.59T
Russia: $4.52T
Indonesia: $4.01T
Brazil: $3.60T
United Kingdom: $3.24T
France: $3.16T

https://projectblue.blob.core.windows.net/media/Default/Market%20Intelligence/Policy%20and%20Economics/Table.png

Ireland is there, it's number 2 in the world, behind USA and alongside Germany/france/Italy and Malta.

Your numbers are not wrong but reflect GNP and not GDP. For FTA's/trade it's GDP you look at, who cares how much business a country does outside its borders and you would be very interested in what a foreign company is doing inside a countries borders you were considering a FTA with. So GDP and not GNP is used as the indicator, and in that regard it's
USA - EU - China. Their the big boys accounting for between 55% and 60% of all global trade. Japan is next with under 6% and the UK then at 3.2%. Then thers a pack of about 10 countries ranging from 3% to 1% of global GDP.
So like I said the UK is no longer a big boy but it is (for now) the leader of the pack with the UK just out in front. But with the UK economy so heavily reliant on Services and not high quality goods or valuable raw materials only time will tell when the UK will be in 5yrs time. That's not counting if Scotland & NI leave.

[Nick]

When you were a EU member the UK sought out and negioated those FTA's that the EU agreed. If at any time the UK didn't like a FTA the EU was about to strike it didn't have to ratify it until the UK had changes made to the FTA to suit the UK. What your really saying is the UK isn't a team player and doesn't do compromise, as witnessed in the brexit process.

NO, what @johnofgwent is saying is we weren't allowed to sign FTA's until we left. Strangely enough that's exactly what he said. Read the lines not what you think is between the lines.

[GerryT]

The only reason The United Kingdom has no trade agreement, free or otherwise, with those countries is that the bloody EU took away our right to organise our own. It's one of the reasons those of us who wanted out voted out. We're fed up with Brussels dictating how it's going to be.

When you were a EU member the UK sought out and negioated those FTA's that the EU agreed. If at any time the UK didn't like a FTA the EU was about to strike it didn't have to ratify it until the UK had changes made to the FTA to suit the UK. What your really saying is the UK isn't a team player and doesn't do compromise, as witnessed in the brexit process.

If your criticism is that its been a while since we had one, fair enough. But that's not what you said is it

I don't have a criticism. I'm pointing out the UK doesn't have a FTA with any of these countries and it has to strike deals with all of them (the key ones) separately. The way it was portrayed was the commonwealth are waving flags with the thought of the UK leaving the EU and coming back to trade directly with them, you know, show them how things should be done.

[GerryT]

I thought you said ONE of them lost their seat?

To loose your seat on the front bench is how it's put or loosing your seat. We don't have a whip. Just terminology.

No. But I think Varadkar isn't very competent either, he dealt with Bojo poorly.
Juncker showed masterful diplomacy (and rudeness where necessary) in dealing with leaders. Your man isn't much good at this by the seems of it.
I personally thought this was the way
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/16/johnson-humiliated-by-luxembourg-pm-at-empty-chair-press-conference
That's how you deal with a stupid child PM like Bojo.

Juncker is a pro, ignoring the antics and staying on point. But I have to disagree on Varadkar, he's a young politician, doing a good job as minister for health and the getting the equivalent to the PM job '17 to lead IRL during a very difficult time. He very quickly went about making NI a key component in the Brexit talks, he lobbied friends in the US, he put in infrastructure projects to modify ports to take super RoRo ships and also commissioned new ships for those ports. That was all done and dusted and now in operation. He also pegged the UK letting them firmly know IRL is firmly committed to the EU and NI wouldn't be a pawn in their game. Finally he was the key to agreeing the WA when Johnson visited IRL, soon after the agreement was signed, securing the island of IRL trade wise. All counted he did an excellent job. If I had a criticism of him it would be he sometimes scores a point when there's no need to, as there's no gain. Hard to explain but he might say or something that would have been better if he didn't. He's only 41 so time to round those corners off.

Where do you start? Look how maky scandals they're involved in.
"Again your strawman. You are the one claiming the UK is less than IRL."
No. You are lying now - my words were that England is just as corrupt as Irl in politics. Nothing else.
You are the one saying Irish politics are far more honest and better.

What scandals, if there's so many give an couple of examples, I'm no SF supporter, their roots go back a long way and IRL being a republic is strongly tied to them.
UK politics is very different, following brexit it's hard to understand that they can come out with bare faced lies and not small one's. They still do it, you don't see that level of 'miss direction' to put it mildly. But it's the response, UK politicians don't seem to pay the price, it all just continues.
I've said Irish politics isn't perfect, no country is.

Gerry, we are saying your country is a tax haven. We are saying your country facilitates tax evasion in OTHER countries such as ours. That was pretty obviously what I was suggesting, please don't insist this isn't the case.And what of your loopholes and technicalities in tax codes/legal precedents?
As you say the effective rate is what matterd. So what do the actual receipts on average look like sent from a big corp to the Irish taxman?

You prob don't understand, in IRL a Irish company is taxed on it's income from business it does in IRL and abroad, all it's global income is counted. A non irish company is not taxed on it's foreign derived income as IRL expects the country the company comes from will tax that company in the country the company is registered in. America doesn't do that, so companies take advantage of that. This is not evasion its avoidance and its perfectly legal. If USA is so worried all it need to is change its tax laws so a US companies turnover in the USA and other countries is taxed in USA, problem solved.
As for corporate tax rates, IRL is 12.5% second lowest in Europe, UK is 19% fourth lowest in Europe. IRL doesn't do the deals like 80m to Nissan, which was denied by the UK Govt until it was pulled out of them, so we don't know what the UK rate really is.

Not much over here, but again you are suggesting your country doesn't have those issues. I will dig deeper now just to disprove this. Let's try one then -
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/repeal-eighth-ireland-abortion-referendum-misinformation-yes-no-campaigns-a8363916.html%3Famp&ved=2ahUKEwivjOagifnsAhWZSBUIHfsRAvYQFjABegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw1uikgY8NRYuEgcBe-Bjkpk&ampcf=1
Honestly. And I never said the govt, I meant all sides spreading propaganda in referenda.

[quote[I never said our politics are clean, there will always be spin but you seldom see the same level of outright lies. Even with the recent Vardakar story, which is a borderline issue but still the opposition are calling for a vote of no confidence, this could cost him his career. So how come Johnson is a hero and he was found guilty of lying to the queen, that's the point. UK politicians seem to be able to do and say anything and it doesn't affect their position, it's not like that over here.

Every PM lies to the Queen, that's not really a story at all.

The problems with Bojo are much worse, mainly that he's possibly controlled by Cumminfs the GRU asset.[/quote]
Poor example, the Govt weren't spreding lies and the no campaign had all sorts of religious crackpots that are ordinary joe soaps. Thankfully the referendum passed and women in IRL now have a choice.
But I do get your point, you will find instances of politicians in IRL lying, but its at a different level and the repercussions in IRL are far more sever.

vs Dec 2019.
Anyway, because of C19, Boris may well lose to Starmer with Brexit being overturned against the wish of voters in 2019, I voted Corbyn back then, but that's not what the English wanted is it. Scots voted SNP.

The best thing for Johnson is to get out, he'd probably try and do that given half a chance. He's written his name into the history book for getting the UK out of the EU. He doesn't care one bit about the UK, only England. An economic hit to the country is no worry for him, he really doesn't care. I wouldn't be surprised if Johnson leaves around next March before the sh1t starts to hit.

Who cares about FTA's when we're talking evil anti-semites in the Polish piss party, or the revanchist Fascist idiot in Slovenia Jansa, or Orban who's strings are pulled by Putin?
There is more to the world than money and FTA's. Why the hell is Orban allowed to virtually suspend democracy with no action by the EU, just rhetoric? Very disappointing

There's alot of confusion about the EU, its a group of 27 countries that together decide how to align certain rules/regulations/laws to allow for free trade. This is not done to this level of integration seen anywhere else on the planet. Because this alignment crosses into things like environmental protection or workers rights it is incorrectly seen as some for of "government", it's not. The EU has no jurisdiction over any EU country other than the jurisdiction given to it by the 27 member states. If Organ wants to get into bed with Russia. It's only if Hungary's actions breach a EU agreed by all rule wil the EU do something about it.

Fair enough.

[Baff]

Actually I think Biden is good news for the UK. I honestly thought Trump was using the UK, he wants to break the EU and the UK was a means to an end. Trump was "america first" and when it came to trade with the UK on its own it would have been all bets off and there would be no favours, he doesn't exactly play fair.
But Biden is a more inclusive sort, I'm sure he will want a deal with the UK and the EU, no reason why he wouldn't get both.

I've no reason to "rejoice" IRL trades with the UK, if the UK does poorly that affects IRL. It's not a zero sum game. While I do think Brexit is going to be a big financial hit for the UK, a good trade deal will lessen that hit. Biden will support IRL, Johnson won't get a trade deal with the EU or USA if he continues with his IMB, interesting times ahead.

There is an enormous reason why he won't get both.
The EU is a massive and competing market with the US.
The chances of them making a trade deal are so slim as to be ridiculous.

It's not like they didn't already try and fail.

Biden has miore chance of getting a trade deal with China.

[Borchester]

No, Canada isn't the closest commonwealth country, even excluding the 2 in the EU.
These countries are in the same regions as the ones 'invaded' by France, Spain, Portugal and The Netherlands. Do their indiscretions smell sweeter than the UK's? Having been to countries like Kenya and Uganda on business where I have been told many times that they are looking forward to opening up trade with the UK. Even going as far as to say they would love to go back to the colonial days where there was little or no corruption.

As for trade with Australia, do you have any information that suggests the UK won't conclude the deal before 1st Jan? Because from what I can see it will be agreed very soon. And as @johnofgwent has pointed out, we weren't allowed to sign anything until we were out.

Your point suggesting the  UK is a little boy in with the big boys is quite pathetic, it's a measure of the world economies not against selected countries and I don't see Ireland on it either. Only Germany out of the EU above us, France just scraping into the top 10.

China: $29.47T
United States: $22.32T
India: $12.36T
Japan: $5.89T
Germany: $4.59T
Russia: $4.52T
Indonesia: $4.01T
Brazil: $3.60T
United Kingdom: $3.24T
France: $3.16T

https://projectblue.blob.core.windows.net/media/Default/Market%20Intelligence/Policy%20and%20Economics/Table.png

And don't forget our friends in the Irish Republic where 80% of its business taxes comes from foreign nationals and where hardly any sizeable employers come from the EU.

Come 1 January 2021 the Micks will shout their defiance of the British and then do as they are told.

[Nick]

First most of the commonwealth is on the other side of the world, whats the closest Canada? secondly these are countries you invaded and controlled, in cases not a lot of love there

No, Canada isn't the closest commonwealth country, even excluding the 2 in the EU.
These countries are in the same regions as the ones 'invaded' by France, Spain, Portugal and The Netherlands. Do their indiscretions smell sweeter than the UK's? Having been to countries like Kenya and Uganda on business where I have been told many times that they are looking forward to opening up trade with the UK. Even going as far as to say they would love to go back to the colonial days where there was little or no corruption.

As for trade with Australia, do you have any information that suggests the UK won't conclude the deal before 1st Jan? Because from what I can see it will be agreed very soon. And as @johnofgwent has pointed out, we weren't allowed to sign anything until we were out.

Your point suggesting the  UK is a little boy in with the big boys is quite pathetic, it's a measure of the world economies not against selected countries and I don't see Ireland on it either. Only Germany out of the EU above us, France just scraping into the top 10.

China: $29.47T
United States: $22.32T
India: $12.36T
Japan: $5.89T
Germany: $4.59T
Russia: $4.52T
Indonesia: $4.01T
Brazil: $3.60T
United Kingdom: $3.24T
France: $3.16T

https://projectblue.blob.core.windows.net/media/Default/Market%20Intelligence/Policy%20and%20Economics/Table.png

[johnofgwent]

First most of the commonwealth is on the other side of the world, whats the closest Canada? secondly these are countries you invaded and controlled, in cases not a lot of love there, purely business and third the UK doesn't have FTA's with these countries.

The only reason The United Kingdom has no trade agreement, free or otherwise, with those countries is that the bloody EU took away our right to organise our own. It's one of the reasons those of us who wanted out voted out. We're fed up with Brussels dictating how it's going to be.
If your criticism is that its been a while since we had one, fair enough. But that's not what you said is it