Why is this still happening?

[cromwell]

So you ignore all the other bits like conflating me with Javert or Pat and others but hey you disagree and its Harperson so must be wrong ,ok we've both said our piece.

[DeppityDawg]

Wow you are up early and with the hump.

I don't have the hump. What is it with 'passion' that only some people are allowed to have it and others aren't?

You ask for figures / numbers the actual numbers within such facilities is outlined in the mencap link which I posted.

No, it didn't. This is what it said -

At least 2,045 people with a learning disability and/or autism still locked away in inpatient units as charities warn they are at even greater risk during coronavirus crisis
190 children with a learning disability and/or autism are still locked away in inpatient units
At least 5 people with a learning disability and/or autism locked away in inpatient units died in April 2020
People with a learning disability and/or autism continue to be locked away during lockdown %u2013 70 admissions in April 2020

2045 out of how many?
190 out of how many?
5 people out of how many cases?
70 out of what total?
What are the reasons/case history facts? (eg multiple dangerous violent reactions)
What are the staffing levels/carers to patients ratio?
Is recruitment stable?
What are the pay levels?

There are a dozen others that could be added, but I guess its easier to react to individual cases?

We can all be "outraged". We can quote figures on the basis that "one death is a tragedy", but it doesn't help us get at the true picture or a sensible and balanced solution. There is a consensus in the thread that this is a recurring, hidden and large problem - then where are the fecking figures to evidence it? I would suggest that if "2045 people" is less than 5% of total patient count, whilst still a problem, it is not "rife" or "vast". This is what I am getting at - otherwise you risk damaging ALL people in the care profession because of the actions of what is usually a minority of bad apples. I have a relative working in care, so I'm not as wholly ignorant of the problems as you think. He's been assaulted numerous times by special needs cases.

Like many other shitty, dangerous or dirty jobs, someone has to do them. Hold them to proper standards by all means, but let them have a fair hearing. My point is that the comments of people like Harman do not help in situations where (by her own fecking admission) the factset/data is incomplete - but hey, who gives a flying feck, lets just jump to a wholly unreasonable conclusion and call them all "human rights abuses" instead.

I've said my piece and reiterated my point several times for you. If you disagree with it, thats fine, but don't say I don't care or that I insinuated that the "courts were wrong" when I said no such thing. I'm not arguing about individual cases or convictions of people found to be abusing vulnerable people or falling below the expected standards. Give as many individual cases as you like, but don't conflate them with overall factual data

[Borchester]

Returning to the original point, the The Department of Health guidelines state that restraint "should only be used as a last resort".

The problem is that it does not state when that is and I doubt that Hattie Chairperson's report will clarify the matter.

[cromwell]

Well it does look better Admin 

[johnofgwent]

Update,what did you do to the posts? Looks like the bloody time tunnel and tried hard but can't alter it at all

Masses of nested embedded quotes. This is why normal "reply with quote" screens have the number of levels of quote restricted !
On the topic in question, I don't know why this is still happenning either. But on the one side, we have people incarcerated "for their own good" at risk of mistreatment (like my first 'serious' girlfriend, raped at age 17 while a hospital inpatient undergoing investigations of some sort of seizure brought on by A level stress, and on the other, ambulance chasing lawyers keen to make millions out of fraudulent accusations of wrongdoing as evidenced by that piece of shit inventing maltreatment of agghan terrorists.

I've no idea how to steer a proper course through those two "interest groups" each out to break the law for their own reasons either...

[cromwell]

Update,what did you do to the posts? Looks like the bloody time tunnel and tried hard but can't alter it at all

[cromwell]

Wow you are up early and with the hump.
At no point did I say you are an idiot but did suggest that you knew little about the problem only because I am more aware (IMO) and did admit that it's much like your expertise in things military where I accept your superior knowledge.

That's an opinion much like yours that anybody who raises any such issue  is a hand wringing guardian reading liberal coughing and spluttering in to their muesli  that doesn't live in the real world and the solution to most problems lies in giving someone a good shoeing ,though I think that's often meant in humour though could be wrong.

You ask for figures / numbers the actual numbers within such facilities is outlined in the mencap link which I posted.

I may or may not have taken this up with my MP and/or the companies and charities already,so what I'm raising the issue here on a politics forum.

I'm changing no reference at will at all,you raised the blue flu bit to which I replied,and let's be clear here what does Javerts or Pats views have to do with this or what I post,is that a shifting reference I'm me not them why are you doing that ask them their views on this.

I really don't see why you have the hump so much,when you post about something you believe in you do so Ermm very robustly, and for once I have too but not with as much huffing and chuffing as you



Well none of us are experts on much here anyway and even when they are and quoted as evidence and do have a PhD people dismiss that evidence out of hand,like the experts who promoted lockdown were 

Anyway it's in general chat I am passionate about it but that appears to be a problem
So there we go .........outraged of Manchester (not Salford,different place)

Forum Admin did his best to sort the unclosed quote tags out.

[DeppityDawg]

What a load of cobblers,did you even look at the vid of winterbourne view,so the courts got it all wrong when they sentenced them?
Blue bloody flu,if they're anything like these tossers at winterbourne view or worton hall the sooner they resign and sod off the better.

Hey, 'outraged of Salford', you're changing the reference at will

It is not cobblers. I was referring to Harriet Harmans claims, which I've told you three times now. The figures in the original link (which you started the fecking OP with) don't give any context - so I asked if there was more extensive data to frame the size of the issue, because she clearly stated "we don't know the true scale". For instance, how many homes/facilities are covered by these figures? How many patients/residents does it cover If restraint was used 38000 times last year and there are 300000 residents, then that would give context - that on average, restraint was used 7.8 times per person in a year. This is hardly excessive considering the issues some of these people might have, but if the sample were only 50000, that would change the picture - its about context. Before she goes goes making emotive claims about "human rights abuse", lets have a more complete picture - that is what I am saying

You then post specific instances and cases of facilites where abuse has taken place, either historically or more recently? Who is fecking arguing with that? I'm not. Where have I said "the courts were wrong"? Show me, or have you become Javert now too? If abuse has been discovered and arrests/prosecutions made, fantastic, but no-one to my knowledge is arguing that they shouldn't, so what is your point?

As far as this Like Borky what you know about people with a learning disability or autism you could write on the back of a stamp,pretty much like me about soldiering.

Really? I'm not claiming to be an expert on anything, I'm was asking for data to give a more clear picture, before politicians like Harman go around making emotive claims when the data in at best incomplete

So presumably, anyone commenting on any subject in future has to be an expert. I'll bear that in mind on any coronavirus related thread then, since you haven't got a Phd, your opinion is worth 9/10ths of feck all?

And this what have guardian reading eye witnesses got to do with this,do you know why every custody suite in UK policing has CCTV? Or even that the same route is being followed by some because of  winterbourne view and worlton hall.
And the comment "decent people doing the job" do you rate those involved in those two cases as decent people?

I referred to "Guardian readers", the kind of people who are likely to get upset by the kind of emotive comments Harman makes, without having any supporting factual data - she makes one valid point - that some facilities are not reporting any data, but instead of asking for a more complete picture or for a standard metric, she chooses to make "human rights abuse" claims instead. What is her job again...oh yeah...

Actually some of the decent people ,real professionals did whistleblow about what was going but were ignored,still when there's a profit to be made from vulnerable people who gives a toss?
And forgot to add handwringing really? A comment easily lobbed in but we are talking human beings albeit very vulnerable and in some cases hostage to organisations only concerned with profit and a minority determined to make their lives miserable.

Sure, but that's your opinion, not factual data about the actual scale of the problem, or whether its a "human rights" issue or not. If you are concerned that its a money/exploitation issue (which you appear to be suggesting), then take it up with your MP or with the companies/charities concerned. Thats not my argument, my argument is about politicians making spurious claims. If the data is there, lets see it. If it isn't, then thats part of the problem. But stop making out I don't or that I'm some kind of idiot because I don't agree with you
Lastly this
So presumably, anyone commenting on any subject in future has to be an expert. I'll bear that in mind on any coronavirus related thread then, since you haven't got a Phd, your opinion is worth 9/10ths of feck all?

[Borg Refinery]

He makes a good point, the blue lives matter cops in the US use body cams to help, not hinder matters. They get evidence to prosecute etc.

Video also helps us see if patients are abusing other patients or other staff, don't forget that.

[cromwell]

From your OPSo stop beating the Sheep.

The people kicking off have mental health problems. They are extremely difficult to manage.
OK - CCTV might help to find and prosecute mismanagement, but filling in another form just does not help.
I was in a job once where there was a form for everything. At one time we had a form to fill in to report how many minutes that day had been spent filling forms in. For goodness sake, some people have difficult jobs, unless they are breaking the law, let them get on with it.

Their mental health problems are secondary to their condition,CCTV and recording when restraint is used is for the benefit of both sides and I guess one reason why so many and not just police are equipped with body cams which are as much if not more protection for those in difficult jobs as those being dealt with.

Also there has been concern from families which has filtered right up to high level about people with autism being admitted to specialist hospitals supposedly temporarily then being kept for years and in seclusion and where families have no say or control of their care,some have finally being prised away and miraculously their behaviour and mental health has improved massively.

Why were some kept for years,surely not for profit eh!

[Sheepy]

Well wasn't really getting shirty with you as an individual but I passionately believe that there is a growing trend to see them not as people but a commodity that can be exploited commercially and discarded or ignored when treated as less than human.

I can read you are passionate about it, I very much doubt politicians are particularly, unless people like you who are passionate about it gets them your vote. They will do what they normally do, feck all but use it as a vote grabber.

[cromwell]

Keep your shirt on, it was a question, I have seen it close up anyway, before they closed down all the units and turned them into housing. Somebody decided it was a good idea for school kids to see how the other half live.

Well wasn't really getting shirty with you as an individual but I passionately believe that there is a growing trend to see them not as people but a commodity that can be exploited commercially and discarded or ignored when treated as less than human.

[Borg Refinery]

So what then? Whats the answer? Don't dare tackle the disabled if they are violent unless you've got CCTV to cover your arse and a raft of Guardian reading eye witnesses because it "ain't right"?

Pretty much. It would help I think. The grauniad supported Blair who seemed not to give much of a crap about people being smacked around in those & similar institutions though, so maybe not them, ironically the tabloid trash uncovered quite a lot of those scandals so maybe sun or daily mail readers would be preferable. Then again, they'd probably call for the death penalty at the first sign of struggle..   

[Barry]

What? Give me a break Sheeps this story link is not about people with mental health problems

From your OP

This appalling treatment  of people with autism and mental health problems and that some are not even recording or reporting their figures.

So stop beating the Sheep.

The people kicking off have mental health problems. They are extremely difficult to manage.
OK - CCTV might help to find and prosecute mismanagement, but filling in another form just does not help.
I was in a job once where there was a form for everything. At one time we had a form to fill in to report how many minutes that day had been spent filling forms in. For goodness sake, some people have difficult jobs, unless they are breaking the law, let them get on with it.

[Sheepy]

What? Give me a break Sheeps this story link is not about people with mental health problems (another one not read the link properly) this is about people with learning disabilities,their number isn't fast growing the numbers are what they were before covid,sure they might be suffering mental health problems as well no doubt exacerbated by the treatment some are subjected to.

Keep your shirt on, it was a question, I have seen it close up anyway, before they closed down all the units and turned them into housing. Somebody decided it was a good idea for school kids to see how the other half live.