Re:3rd referendum

[Javert]

naw we are merely watching javert struggle with democracy and its rules. He wants the  voting threshold for rejoining the eu lowered to 1 % of the popualtion while at the same time wanting the barrier set in any scot indy ref for the jocks leaving at 99% majority just to be on the safe side.

SRB is making a big fuss over nothing , and the rest of us are having a giggle .

If your memory was as good as you think it is, you would remember that I have said in the past I'm in favour of Scottish independence.  I just don't think it should be contingent on ruining the economy of the rest of the UK.

[cromwell]

It would be a bit odd to say that Brexit will be a disaster whilst simultaneously claiming that Brexit must go ahead at all costs, but I guess that's the strange upside down world we live in now.

At all costs,what costs ?your predictions of course.
How many times,the result is implemented then you start your campaign,the upside down world we live in is from day one all out to stop it happening.

However I am a bit LOL at the  implication that if there is 60+% support for rejoining the EU in 2021 and 22, Brexit supporters will be fine to have a nother referendum about it.  I think we both know that their response will be that the decision has been made forever and we should never rejoin.  Apart from anything else, they won't have a lot of other arguments to rely on if things are going badly for the UK.

Well laugh all you like but if the result had been implemented you've have been a few years down the line to get another,we had to wait 41 years to be consulted I'd accept 5-7 years for the idea we have another be considered.

As far as I think we both know anything at all is that we were promised consultation and then denied and let's face it the attitude in Brussels it's madness to consult,why would that bethen?

It seems more than a bit rich to target leave as anti democratic and deny a vote when you are more than aware that the reverse has been true for decades,

[Thomas]

Hey! I'm right here. 

Would you like a free pen? It doesn't have fast dryi'g invisible ink..I promise (snickers)

naw we are merely watching javert struggle with democracy and its rules. He wants the  voting threshold for rejoining the eu lowered to 1 % of the popualtion while at the same time wanting the barrier set in any scot indy ref for the jocks leaving at 99% majority just to be on the safe side.

SRB is making a big fuss over nothing , and the rest of us are having a giggle .

[Thomas]

Quelle surprise.

earlier in the thread you mock brexiters for apparently saying 60 % is needed to have another ref , and now you mock me for saying 50 + 1 is enough to satisfy democracy?

As i said javert , the only demcoratic rules you like are the ones which stitch up your side to win and no other.

[Javert]

my position is 50+1 is enough to satisfy democracy.

Quelle surprise.

[Thomas]

However I am a bit LOL at the  implication that if there is 60+% support for rejoining the EU in 2021 and 22, Brexit supporters will be fine to have a nother referendum about it.  I think we both know that their response will be that the decision has been made forever and we should never rejoin.  Apart from anything else, they won't have a lot of other arguments to rely on if things are going badly for the UK.

who has said this? Or are you making up yet more lies once again?

Just to re clarify my personal position on referendums for you once more javert..... you can hold as many referendums on any subject as you like , but you need to implement the result once its over , not cherry pick implementation like you want only if your side wins , but not the reverse if you lose.

If i remember you were among the people trying to de legitimise the brexit ref as 52 % not being enough....my position is 50+1 is enough to satisfy democracy. The same will be true for any ref on rejoining.

Nothing is forever... your country tells people that no parliament can bind a future parliament so who is saying brexit will be forever?

[Javert]

No I didn't think you were but in the past when thatcher came to power it wasn't what I wanted nor approved of,I thought so much she did a disaster but had to put up with it ,that's how votes go sometimes.

Nobody is denying anybody complaining that brexit will be a disaster,it's been the persistent attempts to overturn the result.

As has been said the time for that is from January next year and  the campaigning could start,perhaps if the result had been respected and implemented instead of this four year trench warfare  your prediction that so many were no longer in favour would've meant you might now be on the road to another vote.

It would be a bit odd to say that Brexit will be a disaster whilst simultaneously claiming that Brexit must go ahead at all costs, but I guess that's the strange upside down world we live in now.

However I am a bit LOL at the  implication that if there is 60+% support for rejoining the EU in 2021 and 22, Brexit supporters will be fine to have a nother referendum about it.  I think we both know that their response will be that the decision has been made forever and we should never rejoin.  Apart from anything else, they won't have a lot of other arguments to rely on if things are going badly for the UK.

[Thomas]

The problem is that just making stuff up just shines a light on the weakness of the underlying argument -

exactly and you would know all about that wouldnt you??

if there was really a strong practical case for Brexit and it was expected to be a stunning success, all the supporters on this thread and elsewhere would be pointing out those benefits - instead, the only place they have left is to say that it would be undemocratic not to do it, and to make up complete nonsense for example by saying that I "didn't care one bit how it was done" - it's actually the current government that doesn't care how things are done and is breaking the law left right and centre around procurement contracts, treaty obligations, lockdown regulations and so on. 

#sigh#

As deppity dawg has told you , and i have told you , im not a supporter of brexit , i voted remain . Did you get that , i looked at the arguments four years ago and voted remain , so why tell me all this?

Round and round in circles non stop with you.

I have never advocated anything that wasn't done according to the current rules of the UK which is generally termed as a democratic country.

Stop arguing semantics javert.

You lost a referendum , and spent four years whinging about losing and hoping the result wasnt implemented . Here we are today with predictable repercussions everyone could see apart from you..........heading towards brexit with remain having been spanked at election time time and again.

Personally I don't really think the UK is a democracy in the way I would define it, but that's a different thread.

neither do i ,but thats all irrelevant to the discussion at hand. you wouldnt be talking about the uk not being a democracy if you had won in 2016 would you , so it merely sounds like sour grapes.

We have to work with what we have in the meantime.

Either way, everything I campaigned for was to be done through votes, in parliament.

you could look at it that way , but you lost , time and again , and those in parliament who took your view had their p45s hadned to them last december.

Simply stating that anyone who campaigns against or disagrees with  the current government policy is undemocratic is almost the definition of anti democratic, which is perhaps ironic.

i have never said or hinted at any of this....all i said was you need to implement democracy otherwise people will see it as a betrayal . I havent once said you can't campaign to rejoin the eu , im saying to you now its time to move on and look ahead not behind , yet you dont want to.

[Javert]

stop whinging javert and crying over spilt milk. If i were in your position , instead of raking over the coals , i would be getting prepared to re campaign to join the eu once you are out in 6 weeks time.

Its not a good start though lecturing the very people you want to vote for your side how stupid and selfish they were in the first place is it???

You didnt care if democracy was collateral damage in your efforts to thwart brexit so dont start throwing mud about over  what others allegedly said. You were just as perfectly single minded in your efforts to stop brexit , and you also didnt care one bit how it was done.

The problem is that just making stuff up just shines a light on the weakness of the underlying argument - if there was really a strong practical case for Brexit and it was expected to be a stunning success, all the supporters on this thread and elsewhere would be pointing out those benefits - instead, the only place they have left is to say that it would be undemocratic not to do it, and to make up complete nonsense for example by saying that I "didn't care one bit how it was done" - it's actually the current government that doesn't care how things are done and is breaking the law left right and centre around procurement contracts, treaty obligations, lockdown regulations and so on. 

I have never advocated anything that wasn't done according to the current rules of the UK which is generally termed as a democratic country.  Personally I don't really think the UK is a democracy in the way I would define it, but that's a different thread.  Either way, everything I campaigned for was to be done through votes, in parliament.  The only ones trying to close down democracy where leavers, for example by closing parliament so that nobody could vote against them.

Also for example, if the army had arrived and taken over to cancel Brexit, I would have stated that was wrong and incorrect.  If remain had won the vote but it then turned out the vote was fraudulent and leave votes had been ignored, I would have said that was wrong. 

Simply stating that anyone who campaigns against or disagrees with  the current government policy is undemocratic is almost the definition of anti democratic, which is perhaps ironic.

[Thomas]

What I mean is that I have spoken to people (I don't think on this forum but elsewhere) who openly said that they didn't care if the whole UK economy was trashed and everybody lost their jobs as it would be worth it to leave the EU, and they would be ok as they had their pension already.

I also remember the infamous yougov poll which reported that more than half of Tory voters would think Brexit was still worth it even if it meant their children or someone from their family losing their job.

I'm not claiming that you are like that.

stop whinging javert and crying over spilt milk. If i were in your position , instead of raking over the coals , i would be getting prepared to re campaign to join the eu once you are out in 6 weeks time.

Its not a good start though lecturing the very people you want to vote for your side how stupid and selfish they were in the first place is it???

You didnt care if democracy was collateral damage in your efforts to thwart brexit so dont start throwing mud about over  what others allegedly said. You were just as perfectly single minded in your efforts to stop brexit , and you also didnt care one bit how it was done.

[Javert]

What you mean here is vote brexit,isn't it?
Well everything has a risk,staying in the eu ,voting for this or that party none of us have a crystal ball though there's always the pretence and that if you do (vote) something I don't like it will be disastrous.

What I mean is that I have spoken to people (I don't think on this forum but elsewhere) who openly said that they didn't care if the whole UK economy was trashed and everybody lost their jobs as it would be worth it to leave the EU, and they would be ok as they had their pension already.

I also remember the infamous yougov poll which reported that more than half of Tory voters would think Brexit was still worth it even if it meant their children or someone from their family losing their job.

I'm not claiming that you are like that.

[Thomas]

So when you get to the heart of it What you mean here is vote brexit,isn't it?
Well everything has a risk,staying in the eu ,voting for this or that party none of us have a crystal ball though there's always the pretence and that if you do (vote) something I don't like it will be disastrous.

another condescending snooty lecture from javert to you cromwell on how its all your fault you didnt do what he wanted.

Thats you suitably told off.!!!

As borkie says if the sky doesnt fall in in 6 weeks time i wonder what javert is going to do?

[cromwell]

Well to me it's not an issue of gratitude or not gratitude, but, it's more that sometimes I discuss with people who seem to think that because they've already paid into their pot and their pension is all "paid for", they seem to feel that when they take gambles with the UK economy in general by the way they vote, there is no way it will ever impact on them.

This is not really correct, as we can see where the government is already making noises about removing the triple lock from the state pension, and if the economy collapsed completely, there would not be money to pay the same amounts of state pension. 

Further, even those who have a company pension, their pension is not 100% safe in the event of a major economic collapse - many people's company pensions are not a pot of money in their own name, but is actually paid out of an overall pension fund which needs to remain solvent.  There are quite a few UK companies with pension funds that don't have the funds to remain solvent into the long term future if their parent company went bust tomorrow.

There is the PPF pension protection fund to protect that to some extent, but the PPF is effectively underwritten by, you guessed it, the UK taxpayer - mainly those people who are working today.

That's before you even get into the point that as mentioned above, a pretty high portion of UK people, over the course of their entire lives, will not be net contributors to the ecomomy - if you add up everything they earned, and everything they consumed, over their whole life, they will have taken more than they put in.  Generally you have to be earning quite a bit in salary for many years before you will truly be a net contributor - especially if you have health problems later in life that require medical treatments which cost 6 figure sums to give out.

I wouldn't suggest that pensioner should be grateful to those working necessarily, but I would caution against the belief that nothing that they do to damage the economy or cause high earners to move away would impact on them.

So when you get to the heart of it

but, it's more that sometimes I discuss with people who seem to think that because they've already paid into their pot and their pension is all "paid for", they seem to feel that when they take gambles with the UK economy in general by the way they vote

What you mean here is vote brexit,isn't it?
Well everything has a risk,staying in the eu ,voting for this or that party none of us have a crystal ball though there's always the pretence and that if you do (vote) something I don't like it will be disastrous.