Re:3rd referendum

[Thomas]

Yes and I've also mentioned many times that I don't have to change my opinion about a matter just because I lost or the majority is against me (which in any case doesn't seem to be the reality any more according to every opinion poll recently).

...and there you go again making up things no one has said to you.

Let me clarify javert i am not asking you to change your mind on anything. You can believe whatever you want till the cows come home ,it matters not a jot to me outside of debating on this political forum.

We are talking about democracy , and the preceived rules and fairness of holding a referendum and implementing the result. You disagree with practically most others on here.

We are then talking about how you have had more than enough chances to reverse that democratic decision to leave the eu four years ago....and everytime , you failed to get a govenment elected on a mandate to do so.

So there comes a point javert where you have to admit defeat and the fact you hold a minority view, but you wont , so you merely look silly. Most of us accept in a democracy the majority view goes. You dont appear to , so there you go. What else is there to say?

[Javert]

Considering some posts you and others made from day 1 how did you post that without laughing.....in embarrassment?

I've never claimed that leave voters are antidemocratic for voting leave.  However I think it's antidemocratic to try to claim that those who don't agree with you are against democracy itself.

[cromwell]

Yes and I've also mentioned many times that I don't have to change my opinion about a matter just because I lost or the majority is against me (which in any case doesn't seem to be the reality any more according to every opinion poll recently).

In a democracy I am free to argue my case for any measure which is legally permissable - referendums, parliamentary decisions and whatever.  Likewise you are free to disagree.  Telling me that I am wrong without providing a convincing argument is not going to change my mind is it?

It's also important that everyone speaks out when loud voices seek to disrupt the democratic process by claiming that people arguing for something that they disagree with are per definition antidemocratic, purely because they are saying something that you don't like.

Considering some posts you and others made from day 1 how did you post that without laughing.....in embarrassment?

[Sheepy]

Yes and I've also mentioned many times that I don't have to change my opinion about a matter just because I lost or the majority is against me (which in any case doesn't seem to be the reality any more according to every opinion poll recently).

In a democracy I am free to argue my case for any measure which is legally permissable - referendums, parliamentary decisions and whatever.  Likewise you are free to disagree.  Telling me that I am wrong without providing a convincing argument is not going to change my mind is it?

It's also important that everyone speaks out when loud voices seek to disrupt the democratic process by claiming that people arguing for something that they disagree with are per definition antidemocratic, purely because they are saying something that you don't like.

True you can wallow in it without trying to force it on the rest of us.

[Javert]

What was it 5 defeats in various elections and a referendum since 2015? You simply dont hold a majority opinion on the matter javert , and literally you are standing in a darkened room shouting nonsense at yourself.

Not to mention if you think about the damage you are doing your prospects of arguing for a second referendum in the future...........coming across as an anti democrat and bad loser is never a good look .

Yes and I've also mentioned many times that I don't have to change my opinion about a matter just because I lost or the majority is against me (which in any case doesn't seem to be the reality any more according to every opinion poll recently).

In a democracy I am free to argue my case for any measure which is legally permissable - referendums, parliamentary decisions and whatever.  Likewise you are free to disagree.  Telling me that I am wrong without providing a convincing argument is not going to change my mind is it?

It's also important that everyone speaks out when loud voices seek to disrupt the democratic process by claiming that people arguing for something that they disagree with are per definition antidemocratic, purely because they are saying something that you don't like.

[cromwell]

At my induction for my new job a couple of weeks ago I openly said to the HR woman "I hope the annual appraisals don't have the 'where do you see yourself in ten years time' question, because I tell you now, at 63,the answer I feel most likely is 'a grey ash dug into a rose bed in some garden of remembrance' and I think my pension actuaries think so too ....
I hear this morning that Des O Connor has gone to join one side or other in the celestial music hall of fame...

But in reality what we are actually reading is "a man in his 80's just joined the "NOT AT ALL exceptionally" large number of people who'll never see a 90th birthday card"

Life is a terminal illness. Some of us have reason to believe  this to be our last christmas.

Some of them might yet be surprised to find last Christmas was. That's what happenned to Dad in 2005 after all.

I'm not there yet.

But several of my friends are - and the numbers are growing weekly - thanks to the way the NHS abandoned cancer treatment thanks to the Chinese

Got a few years on you John,but yeah things are wearing out....having a few probs with left eye both knees,back and the other thing wearing out is my patience but I try not to.

Thankfully brains still there for now,but I imagine Baz thinks I'm either three sheets to the wind or on the verge of dementia at times 

But it is as you say John......terminal and we all have to go......but not just yet i hope.

[Javert]

You know Javert I sometimes think you unfairly get a hard time on here,but then you post....well it's there for all to see,and don't retort like this as though we are all a bit stupid self centred people,I remember your mate beebly not that long after the referendum complaining leaving the eu would affect roaming on mobile and therefore causing problems liaising with his friends when on piste.

I told him at the time that was no good reason not to leave the eu and if it interfered with his skiing go buy some walkie talkies.

If an individual person on their own, made a decision to do something in 3 years time, and then during that intervening 3 years, changed their mind, but then forced themselves to go ahead anyway because "the decision was made fair and square", any outside observer would not be blamed for thinking they were not very intelligent.  This is the point I'm making and the scenario I outlined.

As I said, it's hypothetical because we already left the EU - I am merely responding to the constant assertions that it's antidemocratic in principle to have two referendums years apart on the same or very similar topic, or in the case of @Thomas argument that it's ok to keep re-running the referendum when one side wins, but not the other.

I continue to disagree with that argument and nothing that's been written so far has persuaded me otherwise, particularly not the escalation of insults etc.  My general view is that once people start insulting me in the debate, it shows up the weakness of their actual factual arguments.

[Barry]

The argument that a referendum can't be re-run until the original result has been implemented is a persuasive one and seems logical.

... blah blah ...

I also then imagine the case of a new referendum deciding to remain or rejoin the EU, and then Nigel Farage going to court to claim that the result is invalid because the first referendum of 2016 overrides the second one.  I'm certain he would lose.

For these reasons, I am still completely satisfied in my own opinion that theoretically, any democratic decision, even a referendum, can be reversed by a subsequent referendum, and that this would not be anti democratic in principle.

[Borchester]

I don't follow your logic at all. My view is that all opinions are valued. I just take exception to the constant references to anyone over a certain age having no worthwhile opinion on Brexit, as if age is some sort of encumbrance.

Dyno is only a kid Toots. Just smile sweetly and ignore him.

[T00ts]

Ah gotcha, so your patronisation is superior to others' patronisation.

Surely if you go down that route then you end up with, as we were saying on the thread about learning disabilities - "only people with top degrees from Oxbridge/ Harvard/Princeton etc are entitled to an opinion".

That renders everyone's opinion on here invalid. I only know a small handful of people who attended those types of places and do you know what's ironic?

..They aren't half as snobby as so many people here who haven't attended such; and who don't have prestigious degrees. But hey what do I know, I'm not qualified to comment clearly, as I don't have a top degree from Oxbridge.

Clearly Bojo is so much smarter than all of us which is why he can't answer simple IQ test questions or maths questions on LBC.

I don't follow your logic at all. My view is that all opinions are valued. I just take exception to the constant references to anyone over a certain age having no worthwhile opinion on Brexit, as if age is some sort of encumbrance.

[johnofgwent]

On a really sad note, I've noticed folks dropping like flies on the forums. I truly hope not because he's a lovely fella but I think Pro Veritas may be dead or in hospital, Affa's gone, Tyto's gone. RJD's gone. Several others too.

At my induction for my new job a couple of weeks ago I openly said to the HR woman "I hope the annual appraisals don't have the 'where do you see yourself in ten years time' question, because I tell you now, at 63,the answer I feel most likely is 'a grey ash dug into a rose bed in some garden of remembrance' and I think my pension actuaries think so too ....
I hear this morning that Des O Connor has gone to join one side or other in the celestial music hall of fame...

But in reality what we are actually reading is "a man in his 80's just joined the "NOT AT ALL exceptionally" large number of people who'll never see a 90th birthday card"

Life is a terminal illness. Some of us have reason to believe  this to be our last christmas.

Some of them might yet be surprised to find last Christmas was. That's what happenned to Dad in 2005 after all.

I'm not there yet.

But several of my friends are - and the numbers are growing weekly - thanks to the way the NHS abandoned cancer treatment thanks to the Chinese

[johnofgwent]

It's an honest argument, needless to say it seems laughable but it is honest.

It is a fact the 1957 Treaty Of Rome in its original form, the 1960's negotiating documents assembled for the team Charles De Gaulle said "Non" to, and the 1970's documents Heath had put together by taking up where they left off and running with them, all make it clear it is a founding principle of the community as dictated by its socialist values that funds be channeled from the profitable members of the community to the basket cases.

If that were an action that had any possible merit or benefit, it should surely have been seen in the 63 years since that treaty was signed.

Instead, I see a bunch of countries who remain basket cases, whose youth unemployment is the stuff fascist armies are built from and a troika of jackbooted bankers led by an east german hell bent on finishing with a banknote the job hitler started with a luftwaffe
Where is the promised equality among the nations of the community ? All I see is the germans being pulled to the bottom of the barrel ...

[Borg Refinery]

Another one which Pro Veritas (if you remember him)

On a really sad note, I've noticed folks dropping like flies on the forums. I truly hope not because he's a lovely fella but I think Pro Veritas may be dead or in hospital, Affa's gone, Tyto's gone. RJD's gone. Several others too.

[Thomas]

Javert is just sore the LD's didnnt rule with an iron fist with their patronizing we know best liberal demonrat bollocks, now backs Starmer when it's useful to.

I was just reading there dyno the latest scot goes pop poll , and it showed 77% of scottish liberal democrat voters are angry and fearfull of the tories in london undermining the devolution settlement that underpins unionism for many of them.

It the tories in any way attack devolution then 59% of those same lib dem voters will vote for scot indy instead.

'If Scotland does not become an independent country over the next ten years, and if the Conservatives remain in power at Westminster, which of the following three outcomes do you think is most likely?

The UK Conservative government will substantially reduce the Scottish Parliament's powers: 55%
The UK Government will abolish the Scottish Parliament altogether: 22%
TOTAL REDUCE/ABOLISH: 77%

of greatest concern to unionist  is fears over the future of devolution very much extend to coalition of support that delivered No vote in 2014,

74% of Labour voters,

77% of Liberal Democrat voters,

67% of No voters from 2014

If the UK Conservative government substantially reduces the powers of the Scottish Parliament or abolishes the Scottish Parliament altogether, would you be more likely or less likely to support Scotland becoming an independent country?

More likely: 69%
Less likely: 31%

Once again, it's not just the Yes die-hards who are saying they would be more likely to back independence in that scenario – so are

71% of Labour voters,

59% of Liberal Democrat voters,

50% of people who voted No six years ago,

32% of those who would currently vote No, and even

27% of Conservative voters.

http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2020/11/scot-goes-pop-panelbase-poll-more-than.html

So while javert is flocking to sir keir in the hope that he delivers the status quo javert so fervently hopes for , it seems the scot libs are flocking to indy .

[Sheepy]

Well on an amusing note, Javert and ducky are fecked, because they said the EU is the worlds largest trading block, which is a lie because the Chinese one is much bigger.