Re:He who pays the pension calls the tune?

[Javert]

It means exactly what "they" think it means. It means that those who have paid NI into the system are being paid pensions from a pot, notional or otherwise, that has had more paid into it than has been taken out. You can try to disguise that any way you like, but the NI "account" is in credit, not in deficit. Therefore the claim that "workers" pay for pensions is not correct other than in accounting terms, because in practice the amount paid out in pensions and other benefits is less than that accrued by NI payments. It isn't rocket science.

No it doesn't because the money is not ring fenced - it is used to pay down the national debt and other purposes. 

This is the same as me saying that I put money aside each month to pay for Christmas presents for my kids, in a spreadsheet.  I then spent that money on booze.  At Christmas, I bought the kids presents on a credit card and then recorded in the spreadsheet that my kids presents account is in credit because i spent less on the presents than what I had planned in the document.

It's fake accounting.  Still if it makes you feel better, go for it.

[DeppityDawg]

Also, the letter about the NI system being in credit does not mean what they think it means - it%u2019s just theoretical accounting B/S as evidenced by the phrase that it%u2019s in practice used to pay off the national debt.  NI money is not ringfenced in any real sense, even as a total, and it%u2019s certainly not ringfenced to the individual contributor.

It means exactly what "they" think it means. It means that those who have paid NI into the system are being paid pensions from a pot, notional or otherwise, that has had more paid into it than has been taken out. You can try to disguise that any way you like, but the NI "account" is in credit, not in deficit. Therefore the claim that "workers" pay for pensions is not correct other than in accounting terms, because in practice the amount paid out in pensions and other benefits is less than that accrued by NI payments. It isn't rocket science.

[johnofgwent]

Was it originally advertised as such?

A very good point
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/comment/iancowie/4864302/Comment-The-pension-fund-thats-never-had-any-money-in-it.html
The SNIPPETS of this torygraph article that I can read without shelling out for a subscription allege that Nye Bevan openly said that the secret about the National Insurance Fund is that "there ain't no fund"
The government's own statements
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-insurance-fund-accounts
and wiki's thieving of it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Insurance_Fund
BOTH make it clear this is not actually the case. Money taken for the National Insurance Fund is **NOT** as has been alleged in this thread "available as proceeds of general taxation" but both alst frankly point out the incoming monies are not enough to meet the outgoings and have been topped up from general taxation and that is why we have such piss poor state pensions. If you want a decent state pension move to sweden as a 20 year old and pay THEIR tax rates for 40 years
The issue of getting more than you paid in is clouded by Gordon Brown's ramraid on ACT which no Tory has seen fit to reverse (i wonder why)
Ever since pensions were invented the strict understanding was that while those paid to administer the funds were taxed like everyone else, there was no tax levied at any point on the monies paid in to a pension fund, nor were any taxes levied on the growth of those funds because the proceeds when harvested would be taxed as a salary at whatever tax rate was then in force and all manner of regulations exist, indeed a whole department sits round and does F@@@ all except dream more up, to ensure nobody has any way of escaping that.
However, Brown destroyed that understanding when in the middle of his Chancellorship he changed the way Advance Corporation Tax could be reclaimed, slashing the growth of funds reliant upon dividend investment by some 20%. The destruction that decision caused and continues to cause is staggering because up to that point, corporate and private pension fund managers were highly incentivised to place funds in companies who offered dividends off the back of a company's success as opposed to the more fractured spike and slump caused by tactics of predatorial acquisition and cherry picking....

[Borg Refinery]

Yes, well I was more being satirical about self loathing liberals - "all migrations is good/Brits are all ****s" mentality, of which Dizzy was a great example. SRB seems to be of the belief that "pensioners" are a liability, paid for by the "good working proles" like him (the fact that many pensioners still work at least part time after state pension age escapes him). The fact there is an NIF fund in credit disproves it. I just get so fecking tired of seeing liberals disparaging everything about our society, usually to the the detriment of traditional values and beliefs

That "English/Welsh/Scottish" eg indigenous, comment about taking out more than they put in is I think not true either. It may be the case for some of the lowest paid/disadvantaged, but it isn't a complete picture either.

Why it is that so much about middle class liberalism is now about pissing on ourselves I'll never understand. Most of it is just self loathing now. Its like going to a football match and cheering on the other team to win. I just don't get the mentality.

It isn't a complete picture as I said before, but I really am just going on what I've read.

For example:

https://fullfact.org/economy/are-half-british-households-burden-state/

Or

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-immigrants-pay

The Frelli & dustmann 'cream' study at UCL favoured by the hippy gal is supplanted there by a bigger OECD one which seems to show every group is a net contributor. Hmm. It says 'mixed' households are huge net contributors.

Like you say, there is no complete picture but given our various govts' crap ability at collecting stats, maybe the OECD is a better source (shrugs). That means everyone's a winner as opposed to hate & scorn being poured either over natives or immigrants.

I suggest we see who's better if we give everyone AR-15's. This is the American way and we aim to please.

[Javert]

And they would be correct, they have paid for their pension. It's called 31 years of continuous contributions.

The problem with this is that it's also legally incorrect.  If this was the case legally, the government would not have been able to tinker with retirement ages on the state pension for people who had already started working and contributing.  Those people would have been able to go to court and claim that their existing contributions up to that point were to a legal scheme that should pay out at age 65, and the government cannot change the rules once the game was already started.

However the government has changed the rules, which kind of proves that the money is not ringfenced, and they are talking about removing the triple lock as well.

Also, the letter about the NI system being in credit does not mean what they think it means - it's just theoretical accounting B/S as evidenced by the phrase that it's in practice used to pay off the national debt.  NI money is not ringfenced in any real sense, even as a total, and it's certainly not ringfenced to the individual contributor.

Now of course, even in the case of an economic crash, the government can simply carry on paying the pensions by effectively printing money, if they consider that keeping up pension payments is the top priority for the country.  Typically though this isn't what has happened in other countries where there was a major economic crash - the governments decreased pensions e.g. Greece.

Even if you have a personal private pension pot, it will still be subject to various degradations if there is an economic crash, and most older private or company pensions that are not defined benefit schemes, force the pensioner to purchase an annuity - the pension you get from that annuity is also subject to market vagaries at the time you retire and will be made much smaller by economic problems.

[Sheepy]

Well go and consult migration watch right now if you don't believe me and compare the amounts, we will wait.

Or is that too neoliberal amateur psychiatrist for you too?  I hear 'sir' Green has a degree from the university of freudian slips.. 

I don't care about what migration watch say, the issue at hand is still how have they managed it, the EU is doing what it normally does, lie.

[DeppityDawg]

I used to think migrants were a big issue at various times both for and against btw.

Yes, well I was more being satirical about self loathing liberals - "all migrations is good/Brits are all ****s" mentality, of which Dizzy was a great example. SRB seems to be of the belief that "pensioners" are a liability, paid for by the "good working proles" like him (the fact that many pensioners still work at least part time after state pension age escapes him). The fact there is an NIF fund in credit disproves it. I just get so fecking tired of seeing liberals disparaging everything about our society, usually to the the detriment of traditional values and beliefs

That "English/Welsh/Scottish" eg indigenous, comment about taking out more than they put in is I think not true either. It may be the case for some of the lowest paid/disadvantaged, but it isn't a complete picture either.

Why it is that so much about middle class liberalism is now about pissing on ourselves I'll never understand. Most of it is just self loathing now. Its like going to a football match and cheering on the other team to win. I just don't get the mentality.

[Borg Refinery]

Nice try of course, but the issue at hand is the the ones being smuggled across in boats.

Well go and consult migration watch right now if you don't believe me and compare the amounts, we will wait.

Or is that too neoliberal amateur psychiatrist for you too?  I hear 'sir' Green has a degree from the university of freudian slips.. 

[Sheepy]

Back when me and JoG posted on 'uk debate' yonks ago, we had a poster called 'sweet pea' who oretty much was exactly as you describe.

Se also had papa from the beginning which was a real experience, but we had a nazi poster or two called bulldog69 from Kent who used to threaten to track everyobe down.

He got bored in the end and I guess, gave up on trying to find everyone on the forum.

I used to think migrants were a big issue at various times both for and against btw.

My argument on illegal migrants since about 2015 has been fairly simple, the majority come in via visa overstaying/as students/temp workers. That's where the real amounts worth talking about are - migration became a bigger problem after Blair abolished exit checks or so I read. I think they were reintro'd.

It's a really small amount per year that are smuggled/smuggle themselves in via the sea or thru the eurotunnel etc. There are a few who try to hide in the plane's wheel wells but they usually freeze, get crushed or fall to their death sadly. But generally the amounts worth talking about are only in the former area.

Nice try of course, but the issue at hand is the the ones being smuggled across in boats. From the fallout of open borders in the EU. Who say they they have fixed it but obviously they haven't.

[Borg Refinery]

The Dizzy Chronicles...

Dizzy: We must build villages in Kent for all the migrantz!!

Dawg: Are you serious?

Dizzy: Yes. They've lost everything

Dawg: What? All of them?

Dizzy: Yes. There is a war in Syria don't you know

Dawg: Right. So we let them all in then?

Dizzy: Yes. Right now.

Dawg: Why?

Dizzy ....erm...because they want to.

Dawg: I want a Ferrari but I'm not going to get one. They are in France. Whats wrong with France?

Dizzy: The French don't want them

Dawg: Really? I wonder why

Dizzy: Fascist

Dawg: You've already said that

Dizzy: You are racist and a nasty man and I hate you, hate you, hate you...

Dawg: You don't like me then?

Dizzy: No

Back when me and JoG posted on 'uk debate' yonks ago, we had a poster called 'sweet pea' who oretty much was exactly as you describe.

Se also had papa from the beginning which was a real experience, but we had a nazi poster or two called bulldog69 from Kent who used to threaten to track everyobe down.

He got bored in the end and I guess, gave up on trying to find everyone on the forum.

I used to think migrants were a big issue at various times both for and against btw.

My argument on illegal migrants since about 2015 has been fairly simple, the majority come in via visa overstaying/as students/temp workers. That's where the real amounts worth talking about are - migration became a bigger problem after Blair abolished exit checks or so I read. I think they were reintro'd.

It's a really small amount per year that are smuggled/smuggle themselves in via the sea or thru the eurotunnel etc. There are a few who try to hide in the plane's wheel wells but they usually freeze, get crushed or fall to their death sadly. But generally the amounts worth talking about are only in the former area.

[DeppityDawg]

The Dizzy Chronicles...

Dizzy: We must build villages in Kent for all the migrantz!!

Dawg: Are you serious?

Dizzy: Yes. They've lost everything

Dawg: What? All of them?

Dizzy: Yes. There is a war in Syria don't you know

Dawg: Right. So we let them all in then?

Dizzy: Yes. Right now.

Dawg: Why?

Dizzy ....erm...because they want to.

Dawg: I want a Ferrari but I'm not going to get one. They are in France. Whats wrong with France?

Dizzy: The French don't want them

Dawg: Really? I wonder why

Dizzy: Fascist

Dawg: You've already said that

Dizzy: You are racist and a nasty man and I hate you, hate you, hate you...

Dawg: You don't like me then?

Dizzy: No

[Borg Refinery]

End up like the Yanks, I think not.

Yank sheep, hmm. Dunno. Are they good with broccoli?

[Sheepy]

End up like the Yanks, I think not.

[Borg Refinery]

Then we'd be immune to you.

[Sheepy]

Guardian garbage headline of the day, if only there were a vaccine to protect Britain from Brexit. How about a vaccine to protect against Neo Liberal psychology disguised as political ramblings?