Don't be thinking Electric cars will satisfy

[cromwell]

That is a really useful post about running costs and especially the range of the Leaf, JoG.

I have a Hyundai Ioniq which is a self charging hybrid. It seems to average about 60mpg, about 9p per mile.
However, my brother has a VW similar size car, petrol only, but has an engine which has an eco mode and works on 2 cylinders when it can. It achieves the same mpg as the Ioniq. The only reason for that can be that the Hyundai petrol engine is not very efficient, compared to the VW.

Of course, the VW does not have the likelihood that the Li-Ion battery will lose its charging ability, because it doesn't have one.

If I'm still fit to drive when/if I fall out with the Ioniq, I'll buy a Ford Focus diesel estate. I had one previously and it was a lovely car. I'll make sure I get it before 2029.

Must say Bazstill happy with the ioniq,the Koreans seem to me at least more customer orientated and happy to back their cars if yo have probs long term.

[patman post]

Mrs bought a 2016 Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV in September 2019. There's not been much chance to do journeys of more than 50 miles (and mostly they've been 10 to 15). Twice now a warning light has flashed up saying "add fuel". This is because it judges the fuel in the tank to be getting old. I've filled up once and Mrs remembers adding petrol twice.
The claim of 150 mpg under the NEDC regime is obviously stretching credulity in the real world, but it will easily do 30+ miles as an EV and that covers most of the trips it's done so far. So with a combination of plug in charging and self charging, I reckon it is actually achieving over 80 mpg, possibly much more. 
It's also annual road tax, congestion charge and emission zone charge free. Plus resident parking is £10 a year compared to £200 for a 2ltr diesel...

[johnofgwent]

That is a really useful post about running costs and especially the range of the Leaf, JoG.

I have a Hyundai Ioniq which is a self charging hybrid. It seems to average about 60mpg, about 9p per mile.
However, my brother has a VW similar size car, petrol only, but has an engine which has an eco mode and works on 2 cylinders when it can. It achieves the same mpg as the Ioniq. The only reason for that can be that the Hyundai petrol engine is not very efficient, compared to the VW.

Of course, the VW does not have the likelihood that the Li-Ion battery will lose its charging ability, because it doesn't have one.

If I'm still fit to drive when/if I fall out with the Ioniq, I'll buy a Ford Focus diesel estate. I had one previously and it was a lovely car. I'll make sure I get it before 2029.

The car I have is a lowest of the low 24 kWh 2012 model


There have been two upgrades since, the first to 30kwh, the second to 40 which I guess doubles the range


Apparently battery packs for newer leafs have fallen hugely while replacements for holder models cost insane amounts.


The car is really nice, but I fear it will be in landfill long before the deadline.


It is starkly clear the green lobby want car ownership to revert to the Edwardian era. Those to whom £50k is no problem get to ride, the rest of you shit can walk.

[Barry]

That is a really useful post about running costs and especially the range of the Leaf, JoG.

I have a Hyundai Ioniq which is a self charging hybrid. It seems to average about 60mpg, about 9p per mile.
However, my brother has a VW similar size car, petrol only, but has an engine which has an eco mode and works on 2 cylinders when it can. It achieves the same mpg as the Ioniq. The only reason for that can be that the Hyundai petrol engine is not very efficient, compared to the VW.

Of course, the VW does not have the likelihood that the Li-Ion battery will lose its charging ability, because it doesn't have one.

If I'm still fit to drive when/if I fall out with the Ioniq, I'll buy a Ford Focus diesel estate. I had one previously and it was a lovely car. I'll make sure I get it before 2029.

[Sheepy]

The interesting thing is how fast the resale price has tanked


That car cost £26,000 the day it left the forecourt.


Having seen the log book and who sold it, I test drove it's sister vehicle the month they first arrived in the showroom. They had a blue car for demo drives, a white one on show. This as probably the one on show. It was sold to Western Gas a month after my test drive.


At the same time Nissan Micras were about £8000.


Jennifer bought a four year old Micra for about £4000 in 2016 and it's now worth about a grand if she is lucky.


I suppose in percentage terms the leaf has tanked about as much but to kiss bye bye to twenty grand has gotta hurt !

Well for sure you won't be getting any truth from the media, who are driving an agenda all of their own.

[johnofgwent]

Well, most of them are meant to provoke thought and some reality the honesty factor often arrives at some date or time not yet decided. On the other hand, some are just plain mischief of course.

The interesting thing is how fast the resale price has tanked


That car cost £26,000 the day it left the forecourt.


Having seen the log book and who sold it, I test drove it's sister vehicle the month they first arrived in the showroom. They had a blue car for demo drives, a white one on show. This as probably the one on show. It was sold to Western Gas a month after my test drive.


At the same time Nissan Micras were about £8000.


Jennifer bought a four year old Micra for about £4000 in 2016 and it's now worth about a grand if she is lucky.


I suppose in percentage terms the leaf has tanked about as much but to kiss bye bye to twenty grand has gotta hurt !

[Sheepy]

Well, I'm going to cast a resurrection spell on this thread, as I now have the benefit of actual figures....


A momentary distraction a week ago turned the front of my 65mpg (at 70), 130mph (giving 13.5mpg)  430 Mile range (at 65mph) diesel Suzuki S-Cross which tax cost £30 into shredded tin can. I'm gobsmacked at how 2014 EU vehicle Connstruction standards require vehicle self destruct at 14mph.


With a totally different job now, and living in a more hateful world, I just sunk six grand of my hard earned wonga into buying a 12 plate 24kwh Nissan Leaf.


With a mere 9,700 miles on the clock. From the huge pile of elfin safety documents and the vehicle handover log I found in the boot, I think this was a pool car used by the local GAS equivalent of Western Power Distribution and it's clear they bought it to boast green credentials rather than through real ability to use it as every other car like it on Auto Trader has done six to ten times that by now.


So. The facts.


My diesel Suzuki did somewhere between 40 and 60 miles from a gallon. With the non red stuff costing £1.25 a litre here now, that's 1.25 * 4.54 = £5.67 a gallon which is a tad over 12p a mile at 45mpg.


In contrast the Leaf cost £5 to charge with 17kwh at a street fast charge point in Bristol (well, they seem to have taken a £5 connection charge but no sign of anything else for the 35p/kwh it sucked from their pump over 45 LONG minutes) but we will see.


That charge put the cars onboard range limit up to 62 miles, but that dropped to 21 after I had driven the TWENTY SEVEN miles to my home, so I strongly suspect the range quoted as hopelessly overoptimistic. This was in ECO mode with the performance of a milk float.


On paper then, the 24kwh battery is supposed to give 74 miles but probably gives 50.


If each costs 35p as a fast charger, that means I'm paying 18p a mile, half as much again as diesel, and NINE times what Nissan claim in their bollox literature


At home, I have a domestic fast charger on my garage wall - fitted years ago when I was going to buy one of these as new - that can fully charge the car in about 5 hours. My current tariff is 18p per kWh so 9p a mile.


Difficult not to say I've been lied to about running costs.


The laugh is it costs more to insure than my bloody S Cross too.

Well, most of them are meant to provoke thought and some reality the honesty factor often arrives at some date or time not yet decided. On the other hand, some are just plain mischief of course.

[johnofgwent]

If we are talking about the recent announcement of no new Petrol or Diesel vehicles sold after 2030, I suspect that this deadline will slip considerably as it approaches.
My instinct is that this is simply a measure to take it off the agenda as a major election issue at the next general election.

Well, I'm going to cast a resurrection spell on this thread, as I now have the benefit of actual figures....


A momentary distraction a week ago turned the front of my 65mpg (at 70), 130mph (giving 13.5mpg)  430 Mile range (at 65mph) diesel Suzuki S-Cross which tax cost £30 into shredded tin can. I'm gobsmacked at how 2014 EU vehicle Connstruction standards require vehicle self destruct at 14mph.


With a totally different job now, and living in a more hateful world, I just sunk six grand of my hard earned wonga into buying a 12 plate 24kwh Nissan Leaf.


With a mere 9,700 miles on the clock. From the huge pile of elfin safety documents and the vehicle handover log I found in the boot, I think this was a pool car used by the local GAS equivalent of Western Power Distribution and it's clear they bought it to boast green credentials rather than through real ability to use it as every other car like it on Auto Trader has done six to ten times that by now.


So. The facts.


My diesel Suzuki did somewhere between 40 and 60 miles from a gallon. With the non red stuff costing £1.25 a litre here now, that's 1.25 * 4.54 = £5.67 a gallon which is a tad over 12p a mile at 45mpg.


In contrast the Leaf cost £5 to charge with 17kwh at a street fast charge point in Bristol (well, they seem to have taken a £5 connection charge but no sign of anything else for the 35p/kwh it sucked from their pump over 45 LONG minutes) but we will see.


That charge put the cars onboard range limit up to 62 miles, but that dropped to 21 after I had driven the TWENTY SEVEN miles to my home, so I strongly suspect the range quoted as hopelessly overoptimistic. This was in ECO mode with the performance of a milk float.


On paper then, the 24kwh battery is supposed to give 74 miles but probably gives 50.


If each costs 35p as a fast charger, that means I'm paying 18p a mile, half as much again as diesel, and NINE times what Nissan claim in their bollox literature


At home, I have a domestic fast charger on my garage wall - fitted years ago when I was going to buy one of these as new - that can fully charge the car in about 5 hours. My current tariff is 18p per kWh so 9p a mile.


Difficult not to say I've been lied to about running costs.


The laugh is it costs more to insure than my bloody S Cross too.

[Sheepy]

Funny you should say that Sheepy, now suddenly everyone notices.
https://us.yahoo.com/news/intelligence-employees-vent-frustrations-over-being-forced-to-return-to-the-office-100036400.html

[Sheepy]

You will be dead from the pneumococcus bacilli within months, and they will file you as dying of COVID 19


Back in 1976 the dept of physiology researched lung disease in Victorian London and you'd be astounded how many died not of the smog, but of what we now call COPD brought on by the absolutely vast amount of bugs thrown up from ground up horse dung shat in the roads by the only available transport


Personally I think it's a fitting way for Thunbergs Cultists to meet their end. Well,that plus being run over by An electric bus they fail to hear

Well you know how it is, we live in world full of experts, who are actually experts on naff all, when asked about their information and you point out it is complete cobblers, they start seeing plane crashes or mass hunger or they have been attacked by very bad people, not that they are just wrong of course, but then everyone in Victorian London weren't kitted up with lockdowns and fashion accessories. Of course, they can always walk-in front of the electric bus with a red flag.

[johnofgwent]

But I'll be on my horse, not my bike, and when I hit the button that supplies compressed air to it's mask it will be you getting a whiff of recycled hay as we gallop past you.

You will be dead from the pneumococcus bacilli within months, and they will file you as dying of COVID 19


Back in 1976 the dept of physiology researched lung disease in Victorian London and you'd be astounded how many died not of the smog, but of what we now call COPD brought on by the absolutely vast amount of bugs thrown up from ground up horse dung shat in the roads by the only available transport


Personally I think it's a fitting way for Thunbergs Cultists to meet their end. Well,that plus being run over by An electric bus they fail to hear

[Barry]

I made a bit of a jokey comment about batteries not lasting too long on electric cars and I was immediately pounced upon by a EV evangelist who wanted to educate and convert me. I ignored him, of course.

Good to see we have 50 billion quids worth of lithium down in Cornwall. They'll be wanting their own parliament next.
Although 50 billion is a drop in the ocean, it won't pay the virus bill.

[Sheepy]

Just because everything isn't in place now doesn't mean it won't be in 10 or 20 years time. Fossil fuels are a finite resource and the world is still using them up at an increasing rate. North Sea gas is already in decline and we'll use up current exploitable worldwide reserves of oil in 50 years at current rates of consumption. So, if for no other reason, we need to move to renewables to conserve oil for uses where it will be the only practical energy source for a long time - e.g. aviation, long-distance road haulage, some industrial processes.

If we don't start to make the change now, it'll be a lot tougher when the oil gets scarce and nobody's prepared for it.

well at least you didn't disturb me when strictly is on Ducky with a load of what ifs, not even Blair or call me Dave are that stupid.

[Sampanviking]

I dunno I was reading a piece the other day (can't remember where) that China is on an all out drive for electric only vehicles,and they don't have election worries but do have the technology ad access to rare earths,also read that Cornwall is trying to revive its lithium mining.

China is a different case in point.
Firstly, they are looking to become the global industry leaders in the technology and manufacture of said vehicles.
Secondly, they are building their country effectively from scratch and can build in the Infrastructure for Electric Vehicles at inception
As Nick says, in the cities Electric Scooters/Mopeds are everywhere already.
We on the other hand are trying to squeeze the technology and needs of the 21st Century into 19th Century Infrastructure.
For the 2030 target to become realistic, the power charging infrastructure and the power generation capacity will need to be expanded significantly, I cannot see that happening in time.

[HDQQ]

So in other words I am correct, it is nowhere near in place and as you all want to use ten times the amount in future from green policy and doing away with fossil fuel usage, you are up the creek without a paddle.

Just because everything isn't in place now doesn't mean it won't be in 10 or 20 years time. Fossil fuels are a finite resource and the world is still using them up at an increasing rate. North Sea gas is already in decline and we'll use up current exploitable worldwide reserves of oil in 50 years at current rates of consumption. So, if for no other reason, we need to move to renewables to conserve oil for uses where it will be the only practical energy source for a long time - e.g. aviation, long-distance road haulage, some industrial processes.

If we don't start to make the change now, it'll be a lot tougher when the oil gets scarce and nobody's prepared for it.