Peak Irish Anti-English Sentiment?

[DeppityDawg]

I'm not sure what the point here is? Are we saying we are surprised that [some/most] Irish hate us - or are we saying we aren't?

I've experienced more than my fair share of it to be fair - although I'd say it was mostly Anti-British, rather than Anti-English. I'll always remember the immortal line "gae on hame, Braddish sol-ders" muttered by old ladies and teenagers alike. Always said in a particular way, that gave you the impression it was centuries old. Spat at in the face regularly, cursed in both Gaelic and English, sometimes non stop. Used sanitary towels and excrement being thrown. It was preferable to battery acid and half bricks at least. It was standard practice to remove the sling from the L1 if you were down the Falls/Divis, Ardoyne, Turf Lodge etc. Stop kids riding past on bikes and trying to snatch it out of your hands. Standard hand gestures of course, then ones like the thumb and forefinger to the head, like a handgun - they weren't joking either. Calling cards - "Welcome to Andersonstown" or where ever "your stay won't be fun". That's just some of it.

That said, there were others who broke that mold. Incredible kindness and humility sometimes. And sometimes it was funny, if not actual fun. Like picking up Shamus and co on the border runs, and those VCP corkers where all you could do was laugh.

I suppose there are few countries with more reason to hate the Brits than Ireland. Did we hate them? Yeah, mostly. Thats the thing isn't it, when you are trying to assimilate the past in current feelings. We didn't know what Cromwell (the real one) or the Duke of Crustyfeck did back in sixteen umpty nine. Before I went I was ambivilent. By the time you'd been there a few weeks, you didn't give a shit anymore either. You just wanted to get out of the place.

I do know though, that all hate achieves is to breed more of it

[Borg Refinery]

Misread what I said....again!

Ok then what's wrong?

You said it's standard practice to commemorate fallen soldiers (in WW's) - I pointed out that that's not so when you you refer to those from the other side outside WW's (ie recentish ones).

Are we commemorating the other side's dead from the bosnian war? Are we commemorating Saddam's dead soldiers in Iraq? What about Taliban?

Can you show me if I've gotten it wrong? And if I'm right then it means you can't criticise Gerry for what he's said to you there IMHO.

Example:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_and_Afghanistan_Memorial

Doesn't seem to mention dead Taliban?

[cromwell]

I'm not sure I get your point.

You want the Irish to commemorate fallen British soldiers in Ulster?

Is it standard practice outside of a world war, to commemorate dead soldiers from the other side in localized conflicts? I'm not entirely sure but I don't think so. Do we commemorate fallen Irish civilians or soldiers in this country for example from the conflicts we were involved in over there? I don't think we do. If they were to commemorate us then it should at least be reciprocal, otherwise it's one way only..

Misread what I said....again!

[Borg Refinery]

Do you ever read what you've written,in the post I pulled you on you said thisNote the bits in bold and how I demonstrated to you that you were incorrect.

What do you come back with?........waffle and more waffle and how we should apologise for having the temerity to leave and then witter about commemorating the crew of a crashed German bomber and contradicting what you said before,even to a neutral observer the poor attempts to justify your stance and the clear contradictions along with waffle to cloud the waters are in plain sight.

I'm not sure I get your point.

You want the Irish to commemorate fallen British soldiers in Ulster?

Is it standard practice outside of a world war, to commemorate dead soldiers from the other side in localized conflicts? I'm not entirely sure but I don't think so. Do we commemorate fallen Irish civilians or soldiers in this country for example from the conflicts we were involved in over there? I don't think we do. If they were to commemorate us then it should at least be reciprocal, otherwise it's one way only..

[Borg Refinery]

By the way, it must be mentioned that Ireland hasn't always been so perfect where we discuss WWII (and neither were we - look up the Bengal famine to show balance here).

Pre WWII, in the 30's, like most countries in the west, including us for much of it, you were appeasing Hitler and were very flattering towards them, just read an Irish Times piece about Valera; and btw the IRA actually went further -

..In October 1936 Russell wrote to the Nazi ambassador in Washington, offering IRA support in any future conflict between Germany and Britain. Indeed the promise of German financial and military aid was key to Russell winning control of the IRA. One of his rivals for the IRA leadership, Tom Barry, claimed that the German-American Bund, the main Nazi organization in America, funded Russell's campaign. In January 1939 the IRA's bombs began to explode in English cities: though seven civilians and two IRA members would die as a result of the campaign it had effectively ended by 1940. In late 1939 Russell travelled to the US to raise more support and from there during 1940 he was spirited, via Genoa, to Germany. 

Irish republicans and support for Nazism
If Russell himself never expressed public support for Nazi policies, there were those in his organisation who were more enthusiastic. In July 1940 when a German victory looked likely, the IRA issued a statement in Ireland hailing the Nazis as 'friends

I guess the source if probably pro-English being from here https://www.qub.ac.uk/sites/frankryan/InterpretativeResources/HistoricalContext/IrishRepublicanismandNaziGermany/

But still, if true, very bad.

So it seems unfair to have a go as if we were so much worse than you, in modern history post the establishment of the Free State, when you fellas were engaged in the kind of standard corrupt western politics that we and the yanks etc were engaged in. I feel the IRA were more than justified in their objectives up til about the 30's where they clearly became deeply corrupt, and more of a gangster organization. That doesn't excuse the brutality of the Brit colonial regime in Ulster but you can't paint them out as freedom fighters post the 30's, but they were once upon a time.

[Borg Refinery]

I'll start by saying Eoghan Harris is a journalist that has a track record of taking the polar view on most topics. In itself that's not a bad thing for a journalist but Eoghan takes it to new levels. He defended a man having sex with young boys because the ancient Greek's did so.

Oh gosh, wondered if you were exaggerating but no -

https://www.broadsheet.ie/tag/eoghan-harris/

He is a sicko; didn't realize I was quoting such a tabloid hack sicko. What an embarrassing display, it's a good lesson in being careful about one's sources.

He flipped from goading Bertie Ahern until Bertie was wrapped up in a big financial scandal and then Eoghan became his best friend. So I'll try give the backdrop to the nub of his article and the bloody Sunday massacre. That's the 1920 Dublin one and not the 1972 Derry one that was a repeat but worse.
In summary Eoghan thinks it's a disgrace that the ROI doesn't commemorate all the people killed during Bloody Sunday, where the names of the republican dead are commemorated but the Unionists are not. A couple of points I would make which I think blows his position out of the water and leaves Eoghan in the crank corner where he belongs.
First there were two separate and distinct events that day, first the IRA targeted what they believed were spies, insurgents, army personnel and informants and went to their homes and killed them in what they saw as legitimate targets in the war for independence. A landlord got shot in the episode and ended up tragically dying but the other so-called civilian was a known informer. This is where Eoghan is twisting things to make a story.  To also clarify the IRA eventually became the govt for the ROI and the Irish army today are the direct link from that original IRA. One IRA man that day was Sean Lemass, he ended up becoming our PM (Taoiseach). These events took place in the very early morning to try catch the men in bed. Later that afternoon there was a football (GAA) match in Dublin, the RIC (police) and the "black and tans" (mostly UK conscripts) they entered the grounds and started shooting indiscriminately into the crowds injuring many and killing men children and even a player on the pitch. Later that night a number of IRA prisoners were shot.

Ireland commemorates the dead in the stadium, the fathers, children and player and not the English spies/Army/informers. And why would we ? what country commemorates the opposing army deaths, do the UK have a Hitler commemoration day or do they commemorate the fallen German soldiers with statues and name plates.
Earlier this year there was a debated in our Dail (govt) on this very issue, and the consensus was to not commemorate the unionist deaths, no real surprise there. More thought put in there I would suggest when compared to what the English did about the massacre, basically SFA.

Fair enough. I'm with you on this one, feck this guy. Obviously you can't trust a word he says. He is a self-hating Brit Nat suck up obviously, and no point reading his inane writing.

I haven't read that, the traffic can leeve so it's down to the level of delays/checks at UK ports. This will be for IRL to UK goods, the changes to sea-freight will allow all other shipping to go direct to the main land.

Yep..

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/brexit-border-checks-may-cause-dublin-traffic-problems-1.4413715%3fmode=amp

It's about Dublin ports..

I'm not sure what will happen livestock if the UK decides to delay it at ports. It's really a UK decision, if the UK wants the food it may let these shipments pass through. But thats also doubtful, there's been very little info released on the UK side to determine what will happen.

Agreed.

Thankfully Johnson signed the WA so there will be zero checks/tariffs from NI to ROI so it's business as usual here. EVen this new "chilled foods" regulation will not apply to NI and chilled foods will be allowed to move from NI and ROI and vice versa.

They are doing things as we speak to mess this up so don't count your chickens yet.

Btw what about the subject?

Don't you see any merit in the premise of the other article? I know Eoghan is some warped sick journo hack but are you saying there's no poisonous sentiment towards us over Brexit in Ireland?

Brexit has emboldened casual anti-Englishness among the Irish
Finn McRedmond: Nastier impulses of nationalism are increasing in scale
Finn McRedmond

Since Brexit established itself as a mainstay of political discourse, we have been treated to all manner of tedious diplomatic mudslinging. Barnier versus Boris; Dublin versus London; England versus Scotland.

[cromwell]

? the UK doesn't commemorate the German Army likewise the Irish don't commemorate the fallen UK Army.  That's not the same thing as respecting the dead from the other side. Which happens in Ireland and as you describe happened in France. What don't you get. This is in response to an article criticising the Irish for NOT commemorating fallen English Army when on Saturday there was a major staged commemoration in Croke Park televised for the nation, for the Irish killed by the UK.

Can't be bothered anymore Gerry,it's like talking to a wall.

[GerryT]

Note the bits in bold and how I demonstrated to you that you were incorrect.

What do you come back with?........waffle and more waffle and how we should apologise for having the temerity to leave and then witter about commemorating the crew of a crashed German bomber and contradicting what you said before,even to a neutral observer the poor attempts to justify your stance and the clear contradictions along with waffle to cloud the waters are in plain sight.

? the UK doesn't commemorate the German Army likewise the Irish don't commemorate the fallen UK Army.  That's not the same thing as respecting the dead from the other side. Which happens in Ireland and as you describe happened in France. What don't you get. This is in response to an article criticising the Irish for NOT commemorating fallen English Army when on Saturday there was a major staged commemoration in Croke Park televised for the nation, for the Irish killed by the UK.

[cromwell]

That's a very different thing. If you read the article linked it portrays the Irish as wrong to not commemorate the fallen English soldiers/spies. This is not something any country does. respecting the Dead a lot of countries do that, in WW1 35,000 Irish died, a further 5,000 in WW11, there's a grave in the Wicklow mountains that marks where a German bomber crashed, a level of respect is shown. Soldiers are just normal people, they know what they faced, the possibility of not coming home, but I don't think they always knew what they were getting into and the true horrors of war.

I really don't as you put it have a distaste for the English, my opinion on brexit and what might happen next yr is very different to most that post here. The Govt. you have and the direction they take reflects what the people of England want. But with Brexit it only reflects the 52% of those that voted, about a third of the population and it disregarded the wishes of Scotland and NI. I'm not rehashing all that and do respect the outcome of the election. But when people say:
We are carrying out the wishes of the people or
The EU cost us so much or
The EU needs the UK more than the UK needs them or
The EU will fall apart now we have left or
We will have a hugh windfall 350m a week post brexit ..... I really can keep going.

I call these lies out and it's not the majority of the UK or English that hold these opinions, it's a minority which is getting smaller, especially as time passes.

Even posters here talk of blinking and talk of sinking french fishing boats next yr. They look at this like it's a game.

Do you even acknowledge that Brexit is affecting all of the EU, particularly Ireland. Toots earlier on a different thread suggested Ireland would be next to leave. I suggest you come over here to get a sense of how high a regard people in general have for the EU. Has the UK in anyway thought of it's partner for the past 50yrs, has the UK tried to gently separate to minimise the damage to both parties, has the UK had any plan what so ever that had any consideration for the EU. The answer is no, has the UK shown any regret or even an apology, no not in the slightest.
Brexit could have been enacted so very differently, in a way to cause the least amount of damage to both parties, but the UK has shown, well more those in charge in England have shown they don't really give a monkeys, this is what get's me going. So yes I go on about England more than the UK but my criticisms are aimed at those in charge. But people voted for the likes of Boris, Patel, Mogg, Rabb, Gove nearly forgot David Davis... Jesus. Which means some level of responsibility must be born by those that put those people in their positions.
I've a number of friends in England, relatives in Scotland and in general people I've met through work are very pleasant and friendly. But then I haven't been over for a couple of yrs.

Do you ever read what you've written,in the post I pulled you on you said this

Ireland commemorates the dead in the stadium, the fathers, children and player and not the English spies/Army/informers. And why would we ? what country commemorates the opposing army deaths, do the UK have a Hitler commemoration day or do they commemorate the fallen German soldiers with statues and name plates.

Note the bits in bold and how I demonstrated to you that you were incorrect.

What do you come back with?........waffle and more waffle and how we should apologise for having the temerity to leave and then witter about commemorating the crew of a crashed German bomber and contradicting what you said before,even to a neutral observer the poor attempts to justify your stance and the clear contradictions along with waffle to cloud the waters are in plain sight.

[GerryT]

Well actually Gerry I've visited some war cemeteries in Normandy and in at least one were  German war dead in the same cemetery as Brits,all graves shown the same care and attention and afforded the same respect.

Like I say Gerry you can't move on and your barely disguised distaste for the English keeps shining through.

That's a very different thing. If you read the article linked it portrays the Irish as wrong to not commemorate the fallen English soldiers/spies. This is not something any country does. respecting the Dead a lot of countries do that, in WW1 35,000 Irish died, a further 5,000 in WW11, there's a grave in the Wicklow mountains that marks where a German bomber crashed, a level of respect is shown. Soldiers are just normal people, they know what they faced, the possibility of not coming home, but I don't think they always knew what they were getting into and the true horrors of war.

I really don't as you put it have a distaste for the English, my opinion on brexit and what might happen next yr is very different to most that post here. The Govt. you have and the direction they take reflects what the people of England want. But with Brexit it only reflects the 52% of those that voted, about a third of the population and it disregarded the wishes of Scotland and NI. I'm not rehashing all that and do respect the outcome of the election. But when people say:
We are carrying out the wishes of the people or
The EU cost us so much or
The EU needs the UK more than the UK needs them or
The EU will fall apart now we have left or
We will have a hugh windfall 350m a week post brexit ..... I really can keep going.

I call these lies out and it's not the majority of the UK or English that hold these opinions, it's a minority which is getting smaller, especially as time passes.

Even posters here talk of blinking and talk of sinking french fishing boats next yr. They look at this like it's a game.

Do you even acknowledge that Brexit is affecting all of the EU, particularly Ireland. Toots earlier on a different thread suggested Ireland would be next to leave. I suggest you come over here to get a sense of how high a regard people in general have for the EU. Has the UK in anyway thought of it's partner for the past 50yrs, has the UK tried to gently separate to minimise the damage to both parties, has the UK had any plan what so ever that had any consideration for the EU. The answer is no, has the UK shown any regret or even an apology, no not in the slightest.
Brexit could have been enacted so very differently, in a way to cause the least amount of damage to both parties, but the UK has shown, well more those in charge in England have shown they don't really give a monkeys, this is what get's me going. So yes I go on about England more than the UK but my criticisms are aimed at those in charge. But people voted for the likes of Boris, Patel, Mogg, Rabb, Gove nearly forgot David Davis... Jesus. Which means some level of responsibility must be born by those that put those people in their positions.
I've a number of friends in England, relatives in Scotland and in general people I've met through work are very pleasant and friendly. But then I haven't been over for a couple of yrs.

[cromwell]

I'll start by saying Eoghan Harris is a journalist that has a track record of taking the polar view on most topics. In itself that's not a bad thing for a journalist but Eoghan takes it to new levels. He defended a man having sex with young boys because the ancient Greek's did so. He flipped from goading Bertie Ahern until Bertie was wrapped up in a big financial scandal and then Eoghan became his best friend. So I'll try give the backdrop to the nub of his article and the bloody Sunday massacre. That's the 1920 Dublin one and not the 1972 Derry one that was a repeat but worse.
In summary Eoghan thinks it's a disgrace that the ROI doesn't commemorate all the people killed during Bloody Sunday, where the names of the republican dead are commemorated but the Unionists are not. A couple of points I would make which I think blows his position out of the water and leaves Eoghan in the crank corner where he belongs.
First there were two separate and distinct events that day, first the IRA targeted what they believed were spies, insurgents, army personnel and informants and went to their homes and killed them in what they saw as legitimate targets in the war for independence. A landlord got shot in the episode and ended up tragically dying but the other so-called civilian was a known informer. This is where Eoghan is twisting things to make a story.  To also clarify the IRA eventually became the govt for the ROI and the Irish army today are the direct link from that original IRA. One IRA man that day was Sean Lemass, he ended up becoming our PM (Taoiseach). These events took place in the very early morning to try catch the men in bed. Later that afternoon there was a football (GAA) match in Dublin, the RIC (police) and the "black and tans" (mostly UK conscripts) they entered the grounds and started shooting indiscriminately into the crowds injuring many and killing men children and even a player on the pitch. Later that night a number of IRA prisoners were shot.

Ireland commemorates the dead in the stadium, the fathers, children and player and not the English spies/Army/informers. And why would we ? what country commemorates the opposing army deaths, do the UK have a Hitler commemoration day or do they commemorate the fallen German soldiers with statues and name plates.
Earlier this year there was a debated in our Dail (govt) on this very issue, and the consensus was to not commemorate the unionist deaths, no real surprise there. More thought put in there I would suggest when compared to what the English did about the massacre, basically SFA.
I haven't read that, the traffic can leave so it's down to the level of delays/checks at UK ports. This will be for IRL to UK goods, the changes to sea-freight will allow all other shipping to go direct to the main land.
I'm not sure what will happen livestock if the UK decides to delay it at ports. It's really a UK decision, if the UK wants the food it may let these shipments pass through. But thats also doubtful, there's been very little info released on the UK side to determine what will happen.

Thankfully Johnson signed the WA so there will be zero checks/tariffs from NI to ROI so it's business as usual here. EVen this new "chilled foods" regulation will not apply to NI and chilled foods will be allowed to move from NI and ROI and vice versa.

Well actually Gerry I've visited some war cemeteries in Normandy and in at least one were  German war dead in the same cemetery as Brits,all graves shown the same care and attention and afforded the same respect.

Like I say Gerry you can't move on and your barely disguised distaste for the English keeps shining through.

[GerryT]

I'll start by saying Eoghan Harris is a journalist that has a track record of taking the polar view on most topics. In itself that's not a bad thing for a journalist but Eoghan takes it to new levels. He defended a man having sex with young boys because the ancient Greek's did so. He flipped from goading Bertie Ahern until Bertie was wrapped up in a big financial scandal and then Eoghan became his best friend. So I'll try give the backdrop to the nub of his article and the bloody Sunday massacre. That's the 1920 Dublin one and not the 1972 Derry one that was a repeat but worse.
In summary Eoghan thinks it's a disgrace that the ROI doesn't commemorate all the people killed during Bloody Sunday, where the names of the republican dead are commemorated but the Unionists are not. A couple of points I would make which I think blows his position out of the water and leaves Eoghan in the crank corner where he belongs.
First there were two separate and distinct events that day, first the IRA targeted what they believed were spies, insurgents, army personnel and informants and went to their homes and killed them in what they saw as legitimate targets in the war for independence. A landlord got shot in the episode and ended up tragically dying but the other so-called civilian was a known informer. This is where Eoghan is twisting things to make a story.  To also clarify the IRA eventually became the govt for the ROI and the Irish army today are the direct link from that original IRA. One IRA man that day was Sean Lemass, he ended up becoming our PM (Taoiseach). These events took place in the very early morning to try catch the men in bed. Later that afternoon there was a football (GAA) match in Dublin, the RIC (police) and the "black and tans" (mostly UK conscripts) they entered the grounds and started shooting indiscriminately into the crowds injuring many and killing men children and even a player on the pitch. Later that night a number of IRA prisoners were shot.

Ireland commemorates the dead in the stadium, the fathers, children and player and not the English spies/Army/informers. And why would we ? what country commemorates the opposing army deaths, do the UK have a Hitler commemoration day or do they commemorate the fallen German soldiers with statues and name plates.
Earlier this year there was a debated in our Dail (govt) on this very issue, and the consensus was to not commemorate the unionist deaths, no real surprise there. More thought put in there I would suggest when compared to what the English did about the massacre, basically SFA.

Anyway, they're saying traffic could pack up in Dublin over Brexit, not sure how that works. And I wonder about exporting livestock en masse. Possibly the new regulatory standards on hygiene etc will cause conflicts across into NI, still it's no big deal, these are all trifles and no reason for them to 'hate' usnbecause that's silly.

I haven't read that, the traffic can leave so it's down to the level of delays/checks at UK ports. This will be for IRL to UK goods, the changes to sea-freight will allow all other shipping to go direct to the main land.
I'm not sure what will happen livestock if the UK decides to delay it at ports. It's really a UK decision, if the UK wants the food it may let these shipments pass through. But thats also doubtful, there's been very little info released on the UK side to determine what will happen.

Thankfully Johnson signed the WA so there will be zero checks/tariffs from NI to ROI so it's business as usual here. EVen this new "chilled foods" regulation will not apply to NI and chilled foods will be allowed to move from NI and ROI and vice versa.

[Borg Refinery]

Interesting. That puts a new spin on things certainly.

Anyway, they're saying traffic could pack up in Dublin over Brexit, not sure how that works. And I wonder about exporting livestock en masse. Possibly the new regulatory standards on hygiene etc will cause conflicts across into NI, still it's no big deal, these are all trifles and no reason for them to 'hate' usnbecause that's silly.

The world is generally very inward looking /navel gazring right now, you've got animals enclosed right now and treated like dirt while our political class act like they know it all, both in Irl and here; Gerry denies this - as if Irl is pitch perfect in its response which is blinkered beyond belief, where you have rabid dogs panting on and on about fek knows what, froth about others' causing all the world's problems & never once blaming THEIR OWN homegrown Geoliberal poison politics and politicians.

It's not good - I do hate this new paternalistic streak in politics largely in populist neoliberalism as well as 'centre left' neoliberalism, treating people like twots and tiny children who should unthinkingly unquestioningly obey Bojo's every command.. Or Putin's if you're more of a panhandler, or Xi's if you're feeling really reckless and lucky.

It's all a pile of flaming dogdoo in any case, and is best paid no heed; just do the best you can as you say and dismiss all the childlike twots, they are a piece of chewing gum on the bottom of my shoe and As you say, the wastemonster bubble is below even that..

[Sheepy]

I wouldn't overly worry about the Irish hating on the English Dyno or the Scots for that matter, we had a fair few leave Irish on here at one time and even spent sometime doing as Gerry asked and sort it out ourselves, but he soon drove them away, which is a bit Ironic really

[Borg Refinery]

..according to these opinion pieces, yes. (first is limited by subscription and I don't have one so can't paste - but it helps my case).

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/brexit-has-emboldened-casual-anti-englishness-among-the-irish-1.4412791?mode=amp

The second is more detailed;

https://www.pressreader.com/ireland/sunday-independent-ireland/20201122/284090619078305

^ It is a horrifying article. The state of the Irish media is terrible if that's to be believed.

I have received some incredible abuse for being simply English and not 'hating' England enough, from other Europhiles. That's expected because I'm a completely obnoxious can't with a loud mouth, but it wasn't fair to the other quieter more nice English people I've seen abused simply for being English.

I hope Gerry will clarify whether the report's bs or not, because if true, it is rather disturbing, then again all our countries are reaching peak levels of xenophobia, mistrust and mutual loathing. We seem to loathe each other in this country right now as we do any others - wear a mask where I live and you actually get filthy looks and shouty comments(!). It's all gotten feckin ridiculous..