Labour accused of betraying the working class

[srb7677]

Well the we's have disappeared to be replaced by a lot of you's,if you choose to say Im right wing go ahead there's a few on here think I'm a right on liberal tosspot  .

I don't talk of we re the Labour party anymore, that's quite true.

As for you yourself, you are clearly your own man and believe what you believe regardless of whether it is right, left or centre. I have certainly noticed that you have some liberal views. On the death penalty for example.

I am sometimes too guilty of trying to pidgeon hole people, especially on a particulr view of something taken in isolation. Now I am a political free spirit again, I am trying to turn over a new leaf in that respect, addressing the point of view without trying to pidgeon hole the person expressing it.

I am aware that there are many people who - in left right terms - are all over the place ideologically. They might be left wing on some issues and right wing on others. Yet their views are often logically consistent. A little less pidgeon-holing from me and a little more addressing of the actual argument being made on the subject in hand is the way to go I think.

And apologies. I have just realised that I have responded to a very old post of yours, Cromwell, but upon reflection believe that the things I have just said are worth saying now so am happy to let it stand if you are.

[Sheepy]

Which Barmy Boris obviously thinks we have forgotten and when he does the same thing, we will vote for the other half of the Westminster party being Labour or maybe cast our protest with the protest Westminster party branch the Libdems, but we destroyed them already. So, if I was him, I wouldn't go betting on Sir Starmer being the choice of those naughty voters.
I don't want to hear about its a tradition either, so is fecking Christmas.

[Sheepy]

Well the we's have disappeared to be replaced by a lot of you's,if you choose to say Im right wing go ahead there's a few on here think I'm a right on liberal tosspot  .

So suddenly all those ex labour voters are nazis along with being gammons,I don't want to be pandered to and its labour that's drifted off and are somewhere in a impenetrable fog of their own making.

You believe you're hard done to because everybody isn't agreeing with you and labour,for all I disagree a lot with Quackers he stays the course unperturbed by the opposition and stuff that comes his way and carries on uncomplaining and for that he has my respect.

It's not that many years ago that PPF was predominantly left wing that's how things go sometimes,you should take a leaf out of Quackers book and actually Javert too they say what they have to say and don't dwell on everybody else being a Nazi or complaining they are being got at.

well it is a tough one, left the working class with no hope or jobs and a recession bigger than the great crash, a totally divided country on behalf of the EU, mass unskilled immigration for no other reason than change the face of the UK, several foreign wars that spawned a terrorist backlash of all backlashes, while telling us white van was just a c^^t anyway, most probably a Nazi flying a flag that didn't have EU stars, apart from that not a bad lot really.

[cromwell]

When we were the genuine thing you called us extremists and attacked us for it. Now you have what you seem to have wanted all along, a centrist so-called "moderate" interested only in the pursuit of power with principles a tradeable commodity. And naturally you attack us for that.

But you don't seem to like it when we are genuine.

That is the problem with our opponents who lean right today. Damned if we do and damned if we don't. You'll never vote for us anyway. Not anymore.

We need to be a genuine moral crusade - so severe doubts re Starmer on that one - but we need to be it in spite of you and not pandering to you. We need to persuade those who are potentially receptive to our messages on policies and principles. I don't think that includes you anymore, someone who has clearly drifted well to the right with age.

Well the we's have disappeared to be replaced by a lot of you's,if you choose to say Im right wing go ahead there's a few on here think I'm a right on liberal tosspot  .

So suddenly all those ex labour voters are nazis along with being gammons,I don't want to be pandered to and its labour that's drifted off and are somewhere in a impenetrable fog of their own making.

You believe you're hard done to because everybody isn't agreeing with you and labour,for all I disagree a lot with Quackers he stays the course unperturbed by the opposition and stuff that comes his way and carries on uncomplaining and for that he has my respect.

It's not that many years ago that PPF was predominantly left wing that's how things go sometimes,you should take a leaf out of Quackers book and actually Javert too they say what they have to say and don't dwell on everybody else being a Nazi or complaining they are being got at.

[srb7677]

...labour project the caring sharing but are far from it.

When we were the genuine thing you called us extremists and attacked us for it. Now you have what you seem to have wanted all along, a centrist so-called "moderate" interested only in the pursuit of power with principles a tradeable commodity. And naturally you attack us for that.

But you don't seem to like it when we are genuine.

That is the problem with our opponents who lean right today. Damned if we do and damned if we don't. You'll never vote for us anyway. Not anymore.

We need to be a genuine moral crusade - so severe doubts re Starmer on that one - but we need to be it in spite of you and not pandering to you. We need to persuade those who are potentially receptive to our messages on policies and principles. I don't think that includes you anymore, someone who has clearly drifted well to the right with age.

[Nick]

I would say your big problem in england ( never mind jockland) is that everyone knows what the tories stand for , they are what they say on ths tin.

Labour however promise much , deliver little , and whenever they get a sniff of power betray the very people who put them there time and again.

The tories are liars and bullshitters......but labour are worse , the great betrayers.

The trust of the voting public has gone for good with regards to  labour.

The Tory MP's are all rich people and as a rule serve the rich. Labour MP's are all rich people pretending to be grass roots and pretending to care about the working class.
And as you've said Tom, they betray them the second they get in power.

[Borg Refinery]

Dynamis, I think Farage's Brexit campaign has pretty much succeeded, in that we are out, we would not be out were it not for his reaction to public hatred of the European superstate and that's all that really matters.

'out' is a relative term these days.

UKiP became pointless the morning after the referendum. Not because the country was committed to leave, but because the party, being structured like labour with power in the hands of the grass roots nutters and gravy train riders like Hamilton was already sowing the seeds of its own disaster.


The difference between UKIP and the Brexit Party is the party is an entity incorporated by guarantee with power centralised atbitshead and it's power to stand candidates centralised in the hands of its national nominating officer, and it's funds come from a momentum style third party supporters organisation, which welcomes supporters and contributors but unlike labour, Tory or UKiP gives those people no right to control who stands.


It is a perfect party machine.

So perfect that its leader can renege.

The most important thing to do now is enature there is no sliding back. I suppose it is for my daughters and grand daughters generation to ensure Starmer never sees his dream of the UK reapplying for membership making it to the table.


As for the USA, well, it is time for them to reap the harvest of their treatment of us over Suez...

You're still bitter about Suez? That puts a new spin on things, but we already are 'backsliding' as you put it.

[cromwell]

I would say your big problem in england ( never mind jockland) is that everyone knows what the tories stand for , they are what they say on ths tin.

Labour however promise much , deliver little , and whenever they get a sniff of power betray the very people who put them there time and again.

The tories are liars and bullshitters......but labour are worse , the great betrayers.

The trust of the voting public has gone for good with regards to  labour.

Got it in one and what I've been saying for some time,you know where you are with the tories,labour project the caring sharing but are far from it.

[johnofgwent]

Dynamis, I think Farage's Brexit campaign has pretty much succeeded, in that we are out, we would not be out were it not for his reaction to public hatred of the European superstate and that's all that really matters.


UKiP became pointless the morning after the referendum. Not because the country was committed to leave, but because the party, being structured like labour with power in the hands of the grass roots nutters and gravy train riders like Hamilton was already sowing the seeds of its own disaster.


The difference between UKIP and the Brexit Party is the party is an entity incorporated by guarantee with power centralised atbitshead and it's power to stand candidates centralised in the hands of its national nominating officer, and it's funds come from a momentum style third party supporters organisation, which welcomes supporters and contributors but unlike labour, Tory or UKiP gives those people no right to control who stands.


It is a perfect party machine.


The most important thing to do now is enature there is no sliding back. I suppose it is for my daughters and grand daughters generation to ensure Starmer never sees his dream of the UK reapplying for membership making it to the table.


As for the USA, well, it is time for them to reap the harvest of their treatment of us over Suez...

[Borg Refinery]

I don't think that QUITE works does it
Fact is, Farage, first through the Referendum Party, then UKIP, then the Brexit Party which he quite cleverly structured so as to provide the same structure as Momentum, without permitting the problems Labour have with Momentum, provided the nagging thorn in the side that kept the Tories on track

Are they on track now? And are you saying Boris's sellout deal, acknowledged by Farage himseof as a sellout deal, before he sold out his party to Boris was NOT a sellout?

If he perservered then I might have more respect for him, if he split the vote it may actually have been more honourable. Corbo was never going to get a majority anyway..

It was only AFTER the BNP secured two MEP's that labour started to reverse its multiculturalist, immigrant friendly rhetoric. Do you think it an accident that Gordon Brown suddenly, midway between the 2009 EU election and the 2010 removal of the T@@@ as Prime Minister, started chanting "british jobs for british workers" at a picket line ? Do you think it coincidence that a month after Griffin walked into the European Parliament Phil Woolas, then Immigration Minister, and still allowed to be a politician because it would be another 18 months before the Electoral Commisison would ban him from standing for office again for electoral crimes in the 2010 campaign, did a complete U turn and stated publicly that those seeking asylum in the UK should declare themselves as asylum seekers in the first safe country they arrived at, and throw themselves at the mercy of the EU-wide political agreement and UNHCR treaty to which the UK became a signatory when the EU was just a dream in an East German HausMadchen's eye ...
No.

(shrugs)

They successfully destroyed the BNP as revenge for that later on. It was a process they'd been working on for some time. The Labour change in policy still didn't win them the 2010 GE anyway so it was 100% wasted effort on Gordot's part..

Political parties react not to the demands of the people but to the threat at the ballot box

The only way hard demands are won is with extreme measures these days I'm afraid, even Rashford's "shame the F@@@ out of them" campaign yielded results only because it hit them where it hurt.

The point is they don't care unless their secure grip on power is threatened by any means, they aren't interested in random MEP's in random places etc. They know that over tile they will destroy parties like the BNP or BXP.

They do this abroad too, you think Jorg Haider died by accident? Even if they take power, they are dead meat. Let's face it, they said his car was sabotaged in not so many words later on...

The immense campaign of sabotage, harrasment and naked bribing and media venom got to Farage in the end, like it got to Corbyn..and the BNP.. and so on. Farage sold out and Corbyn was hobbled by the anti semitism thing.

That's what goes on.. you know I'm right.

and their first reaction is to deny the upstart the facilities they have themselves exploited for decades. Their second reactin is to ever so gently bend their rhetoric to make it sould like they have listened. And their third is to deny, once they find themselves in the gutter, that they ever held the views that got them thrown there.

Not really.

The UK FPTP system ensures that no upcoming party ever presents a serious threat to the establishment, and careful scrutiny of the democraphics and political makeup of the 650 constituencies that send a puppet to westminster will show you how it is done. Seats where it is pointless to hold a view contrary to that of the sitting MP's national party steering committee ensure that there are a handful of constituencies where a voter holds ten to fifteen times the sway of those in 250 of the 650. It is the rotten boroughs of pre-1832 all over again, deliberately engineered to be so.

Agreed.

Farage provided the means for the people to deliver their disgust at a system engineered to prevent them having their say

He failed to do that.

It's a shame he was allowed to, really. I myself would have much preferred the traditional way the british express such discontent. Heads on Pikes

He delivered a sellout made to look like a success. In usual wastemonster style..

[DeppityDawg]

I see you have yet to lampoon yourself with one of your stereotypical, Daily Mail informed, rants. No doubt it is only a matter of time.

The same vitriolic dogmatic sh*t about "Daily Mail reading homophobic racist scumbags". How could you demonstrate your hatred any more clearly? The party that complains about the "hatred" of others is absolutely riddled with it. You are an example of everything that's wrong with the party. You attempt to defend it by reverting to a type EXACTLY what the articles says Labour have become. You are either unbelievably stupid or unbelievably naive. How are you EVER going to get back in power by churning out hate for the people you need to vote for you to get anywhere near 10 Downing Street?

And this is from a poster who runs away crying and bleating about "nasty posters" who "attack" him instead of his argument? Listen pal, the worst that can happen on a forum is not that someone might disagree with with you and a few high words may result.

The worst that can happen is that people simply stop caring what you say because they've heard it all before. That's happening to your party, and its happening to you. You and your hate speech aren't worth listening to anymore.

[johnofgwent]

I would say your big problem in england ( never mind jockland) is that everyone knows what the tories stand for , they are what they say on ths tin.

Labour however promise much , deliver little , and whenever they get a sniff of power betray the very people who put them there time and again.

The tories are liars and bullshitters......but labour are worse , the great betrayers.

^
This

[johnofgwent]

Splitting the vote? Isn't that what almost happened with Farage ....

I don't think that QUITE works does it
Fact is, Farage, first through the Referendum Party, then UKIP, then the Brexit Party which he quite cleverly structured so as to provide the same structure as Momentum, without permitting the problems Labour have with Momentum, provided the nagging thorn in the side that kept the Tories on track
It was only AFTER the BNP secured two MEP's that labour started to reverse its multiculturalist, immigrant friendly rhetoric. Do you think it an accident that Gordon Brown suddenly, midway between the 2009 EU election and the 2010 removal of the T@@@ as Prime Minister, started chanting "british jobs for british workers" at a picket line ? Do you think it coincidence that a month after Griffin walked into the European Parliament Phil Woolas, then Immigration Minister, and still allowed to be a politician because it would be another 18 months before the Electoral Commisison would ban him from standing for office again for electoral crimes in the 2010 campaign, did a complete U turn and stated publicly that those seeking asylum in the UK should declare themselves as asylum seekers in the first safe country they arrived at, and throw themselves at the mercy of the EU-wide political agreement and UNHCR treaty to which the UK became a signatory when the EU was just a dream in an East German HausMadchen's eye ...
No.
Political parties react not to the demands of the people but to the threat at the ballot box and their first reaction is to deny the upstart the facilities they have themselves exploited for decades. Their second reactin is to ever so gently bend their rhetoric to make it sould like they have listened. And their third is to deny, once they find themselves in the gutter, that they ever held the views that got them thrown there.
The UK FPTP system ensures that no upcoming party ever presents a serious threat to the establishment, and careful scrutiny of the democraphics and political makeup of the 650 constituencies that send a puppet to westminster will show you how it is done. Seats where it is pointless to hold a view contrary to that of the sitting MP's national party steering committee ensure that there are a handful of constituencies where a voter holds ten to fifteen times the sway of those in 250 of the 650. It is the rotten boroughs of pre-1832 all over again, deliberately engineered to be so.
Farage provided the means for the people to deliver their disgust at a system engineered to prevent them having their say
It's a shame he was allowed to, really. I myself would have much preferred the traditional way the british express such discontent. Heads on Pikes

[Thomas]

So a lot of words are basically being used to say the working class is being betrayed because Labour does not pander to their homophobia and xenophobia?

I find that an insult to the working classes to be honest. We are not all knuckle-dragging ourselves back to the 1970s.

Though the article has a point re middle class dominance of Labour today. There are very few working class people in senior positions in the party anymore which affects priorities, with working class concerns accorded a low priority.

Take housing for example. It is now all about encouraging the middle class ideal of home ownership, with tenants a mere afterthought. Nothing was done in 13 years of office to achieve a fairer deal for tenants. And at senior levels Labour contains vastly more landlords than tenants and as such in no way reflects the working class millions.

And higher education. It is now all about maximising the middle class ideal of a few years at uni for as many people as possible, with very little focus on vocational training.

Bread and butter working class concerns re housing and jobs largely go unaddressed. It is these the party needs to properly address, not pander to homophobia or xenophobia. Labour long ago abandoned the working classes on bread and butter isssues, believing "we are all middle class now." Er, no we are f**king not! And never were. The party lost touch with it's working class base under Blair with such thinking.

We tried to address bread and butter working class concerns much more with our popular 2017 manifesto, but by then Brexit was the issue of the age, and the Establishment fought back hard against the perceived threat to the Thatcherite economic consensus we represented, with overt anti-left bias and waves of demonisation. And our leader Corbyn was simply too weak in the face of this.

But we need to reconnect with the working classes by addressing their bread and butter concerns, not by pandering to any homophobic or xenophobic elements amongst them.

I fully expect that the ones who choose the Daily Mail as their bible will kick against me on this, so I'll probably get a full on rant from DD, .

i wish i had the time to address this pile of pish more fully this morning , but you are basically (ofter a brief skim) telling people why they shouldnt vote labour.

The labour parties fromer housing spokeperson tom copley said famously that thatcher built more council flats in a single year than new labour , keir starmers heroes , built in their entire thirteen years in feckin office.

https://fullfact.org/economy/who-built-more-council-houses-margaret-thatcher-or-new-labour/

Forget the excuses steve , and promises of jam tomorrow if the momentum nutjobs get back in control of labour , simply put , no cant believes a thing you say in terms of the voting public anymore. No one wants to hear your pathetic feeble excuses.

Trust takes years to build and seconds to break , and labour have broken the voters trust a thousand times over.

Did you see the recent clackmannan by election in scotland?

The labour vote totally collapsed , and many of the more unionist voters swtiched from voting labour to voting tory.

Clackmannanshire East by-election result:

Conservatives 51.2% (+9.7)
SNP 32.0% (+1.
Labour 8.1% (-12.1)
Greens 5.8% (+2.0)
Liberal Democrats 2.9% (-1.4)

I would say your big problem in england ( never mind jockland) is that everyone knows what the tories stand for , they are what they say on ths tin.

Labour however promise much , deliver little , and whenever they get a sniff of power betray the very people who put them there time and again.

The tories are liars and bullshitters......but labour are worse , the great betrayers.

The trust of the voting public has gone for good with regards to  labour.

[Borg Refinery]

Firstly I'd like to thank you for posting two, it's very lazy to stick a 2 in the middle and most people do it. GENUINE 😊

Now back to battle. There is one leader and a former Leader, not two... Limping off to lick his wounds in the long grass, hoping the Hyenas don't pick up his scent and turn him into lunch. As usual the ones loyal to him have to fall on their swords, or face a public flogging by the new kid in town.

The point being, how many times have we been told you can't change it from the outside? Well my guess is there will be a new party in town trying to save all the lost souls, which is great, it just splits the left and gives Capitalism many more glorious years of rule.

👍

Great discussion. Some great grammar nazism (as opposed to apartheid worship at least..) and some other finickety pedantry.

Splitting the vote? Isn't that what almost happened with Farage before he sold you all out like the scumbag he is? Or what? Good luck when Farage starts his reform party, then come back and talk about splitting the vote.