Macron v UK + EU

[Thomas]

I try approach all with the view that they are intelligent and acting on the facts as they see them.

I clearly made a mistake and people are far more emotional and selective in what they regard as facts

This is laughable.

I dont remember compromise , intelligent discourse and the quiet contemplation of "facts" on the run up to the referendum when both leave and remain were tearing absolute lumps out of each other.

In the fours years since , its been carry on as you are from both sides.

Now three and a half weeks from brexit , you want to start talking about intelligence and decency of debate?

Its a bit late for that beelbeeb.

Like i said , take responsibility for your part in events of the last four years instead of trying to wash your hands of any guilt.

[Thomas]

You and I have different ideas about democracy.

I happen to believe dissent is a core part of it.

I agree.

I have no problems with dissent . What i have a problem with is trying to overturn democracy.

If you have a referendum as has been said ad nauseum , you implement the result , and then begin campaginig again to overturn the previous result. Thats democracy in action.

You can't in one breath say "your opposition to this was antidemocratic" and then say "this is your responsibility" with the next.

Playing semantics as ever.

i havent once said opposition to brexit was undemocratic. I said trying to stop it being implemented when you lost fair and square is what i find undemocratic.

And, as I said, Brexiters will be doing the exact opposite.

They will , as i said the two sides are beyond compromise as you show by your own words. Which is hilarious when you talk about compromise regarding a brexit deal.

So leavers have made our bed and we're all going to lie in it now.

You made your own bed mate , and havent stopped crying bitter salty tears since you lost like the bad loser you are.

[BeElBeeBub]

We dont , despite you and your ilks long war against democracy , brexit is finally happening after four long years of bitter fighting.

You and I have different ideas about democracy.

I happen to believe dissent is a core part of it.

You are quite happy to sit and carp now in bitterness ffrom the sidelines while completely ignoring your sides part on why and how we got here as i keep saying.

nope. No blame sharing here. This is all on leavers 100%.

You can't in one breath say "your opposition to this was antidemocratic" and then say "this is your responsibility" with the next.

We tried to push for a moderate approach (do you think there would have been as much remainer opposition is "super Norway" arrangement had been sought?).

We tried to push for the entirely reasonable idea that maybe we should have a good look at the deal before we sign up to it.

Each time we were accused (as you did just now) of being anti democratic.

So leavers have made our bed and we're all going to lie in it now.

If brexit turns out to be good after all , you wont acknowledge it , you will try and tear it down in bitterness and hatred , if it turns oput bad , you will be crowing from the highest roof top.

And, as I said, Brexiters will be doing the exact opposite.

To be honest beelbeeb , i think we ran out of stuff to say a long time ago.

Views are completely entrenched , and neither side is listening to the other.

ironically the one thing we agree on.

It is quite amazing (and sad) that what was a minor split over a philosophical point in the conservatives 5years ago has now become the major political fault line in British politics.

There seems to be a strange symmetry to our positions and paths.

You say you started as a reluctant remainer and have now transitioned to a hard Brexiter because of the remain sides lies and actions.

I started (before the ref) as a mild Eurosceptic, on balance Leave.  What shifted my opinion was the Leave sides lies and actions. Now, for all it's faults, I am strongly pro EU..

Interesting

What amazes me though when talking to you is the arrogance you display in thinking people will acutally buy into some brexit in name only after all that has happened over the last four years.

If you arent being arrogant in your view of people around you thinking they are daft , then you must be completely delusional

I try approach all with the view that they are intelligent and acting on the facts as they see them.

I clearly made a mistake and people are far more emotional and selective in what they regard as facts

[Thomas]

As I said, we don't have long to wait.

We dont , despite you and your ilks long war against democracy , brexit is finally happening after four long years of bitter fighting.

You are quite happy to sit and carp now in bitterness ffrom the sidelines while completely ignoring your sides part on why and how we got here as i keep saying.

If brexit turns out to be good after all , you wont acknowledge it , you will try and tear it down in bitterness and hatred , if it turns oput bad , you will be crowing from the highest roof top.

Instead of sneering and inventing lies to comfort yourself , maybe you should reflect on why people voted brexit , instead of living in cloud cuckoo land throwing mud and hoping it sticks.

To be honest beelbeeb , i think we ran out of stuff to say a long time ago.

Views are completely entrenched , and neither side is listening to the other.

What amazes me though when talking to you is the arrogance you display in thinking people will acutally buy into some brexit in name only after all that has happened over the last four years.

If you arent being arrogant in your view of people around you thinking they are daft , then you must be completely delusional.

[Sheepy]

As I said, we don't have long to wait.

My prediction is that leavers will continue to attribute any negative brexit consequences to other things especially CV or the WA

Like communism, Brexit will always be the perfect idea and any failings the fault of it "not being proper brexit/communism". The WA in particular will be cited as why this version of brexit is "not proper" and therefore any faults don't reflect on the purity of Brexit.

bullshit beelblubber, whatever or however we leave will be wrong because you think because you don't want to leave you get a say on staying.

[BeElBeeBub]

When will remainers like beelbeeb ever learn to  stop predicting brexit doom gloom and disaster indeed?

As I said, we don't have long to wait.

My prediction is that leavers will continue to attribute any negative brexit consequences to other things especially CV or the WA

Like communism, Brexit will always be the perfect idea and any failings the fault of it "not being proper brexit/communism". The WA in particular will be cited as why this version of brexit is "not proper" and therefore any faults don't reflect on the purity of Brexit.

[Thomas]

Guardian's
Remainer Pessimism Flops Yet Again

Since the vaccine news came out on Wednesday morning, Remainers have spent their time arguing that Brexit point-scoring shouldn't politicise the good vaccine news; as the Guardian published on Wednesday, the "UK's triumph at approving Covid vaccine must not become a chest-thumping exercise":

    "The health secretary saw this as a triumph for Britannia. Matt Hancock even tried to spin it as a triumph for Brexit... But political posturing will not help the huge effort ahead to get the vaccine taken up by the elderly and vulnerable most at risk from Covid."

The paper's aversion to political posturing over the vaccine is clearly newly-found however, given that back March the Observer's political editor Toby Helm gleefully told readers:

    "Brexit means coronavirus vaccine will be slower to reach the UK – and it will cost more here because of the UK pulling out of the European Medicines Agency on 30 December"

Yes, that's the same EMA that is yet to approve a vaccine, holding back immunisation for EU citizens. Unsurprisingly, Toby has remained quiet on social media vaccine analysis this week...

The Guardian is far from the only outlet to have pronounced Brexit doom on Britain's hopes of a vaccine. In July the Independent's Rob Merrick told readers Boris Johnson had put "Brexit before health by rejecting an invitation to join an EU scheme to procure a coronavirus vaccine", citing Layla Moran who said the decision was putting "Brexit over vaccines". According to sources at the time, the EU made scrapping the Oxford vaccine trials a pre-condition of UK participation in their vaccine programme. Now we have more vaccine than the EU, faster than the EU. Will Remainers ever learn to stop predicting gloom and disaster?

https://order-order.com/2020/12/04/guardians-remainer-pessimism-flops-yet-again/

When will remainers like beelbeeb ever learn to  stop predicting brexit doom gloom and disaster indeed?

[Thomas]

If you think vote leave looks stupid or dishonest now.... whatever you do, don't look at vote remain.

what baffy? Remainers are honest as the day is long dont you know?

Arron Banks 'met Russian officials multiple times before Brexit vote'

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/09/arron-banks-russia-brexit-meeting

Clock is ticking put up or shut up abour russia and vote leave carole

https://order-order.com/2020/11/06/carole-has-twenty-days-to-produce-russia-evidence/

and then....

Oh Carole: Admits Russia Claims Untrue, Agrees to Pay Banks's Costs

https://order-order.com/2020/11/26/exclusive-oh-carole-admits-russia-claims-untrue-agrees-to-pay-banks-costs/

Remain were told time and again to tone down the lies and rhetoric over brexit during the campaign , but they wouldnt listen.

...and still they carry on doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result. They are hardening public opinion against them with their continued lies and shouting the uk down.

[Baff]

Remainer constantly pointed out the contradictions in the Leave position.  They pointed out that certain leave promises could only be achieved by a "hard brexit" eg trade deals imply noncutoms Union, own regs implies outside the single market and that was at odds with the "nobody is threatening our place in the single market" and "exact same benefits as before" promises.

And in this you were correct.
You educated us to the problem and we made an informed decision.

You can't say we didn't know about it.
Because you told us.
Endlessly and repeatedly.


Leave may have made optimistic promises, but Remain made even more ridiculous pessimistic ones.
Utter catastrophe.
ROFLLMAO.

How ffing stupid you all look now.
Not that you didn't back then, of course.

If you think vote leave looks stupid or dishonest now.... whatever you do, don't look at vote remain.

I genuinely believe that before all the remain campaigning, Brexiters would happily have settled for EEA membership.



As far as I am concerned the referendum mandate is already complete.
We have left the EU.

I fully hope we don't take an EU trade deal this year.
Or perhaps ever.

They make shit deals and can't be trusted any more than deals with Hitler could.

If we do take an EU deal, I would hope that it gets ended by the next government. Hopefully a Farage one.
Bad deals should always be ended sooner rather than later.
I am prejudice of course. Without looking at the deal I have already decided it will be shit.

What call Boris will make I can't quite predict.
I think he can live with WTO or a trade deal. Either way he'll survive.

[BeElBeeBub]

Brexit was advertised as a hard line project by Remain, not Leave.
They polarised the debate. A mistake which came back to bite them in the arse.

However, it was a referendum not a general election.
There was no winning party elected on a manifesto.

Vote Leave did not decide what trade deals the EU would be willing to offer us.
Nor did anyone sane believe they did.
They were not representatives in a representative democracy.

This was decided by direct democracy. Their votes and opinions were worth no more or less than anyone else's.

Remainer constantly pointed out the contradictions in the Leave position.  They pointed out that certain leave promises could only be achieved by a "hard brexit" eg trade deals imply noncutoms Union, own regs implies outside the single market and that was at odds with the "nobody is threatening our place in the single market" and "exact same benefits as before" promises.

The "leave was a campaign not government" line would fly *if* the leaders and main participants weren't the PM and his cabinet.  Johnson and give led leave. They can't say "we aren't responsible for the promises made by leaders of Leave"

Leave promises Disneyland. Remainers pointed out they would be unable to deliver it.

Leave are now delivering a version of brexit they explicitly ruled out.

As I said, we are about to see who was right. The can has nearly run out of road.

*If* we do "no deal" on 1 Jan, would you at least concede that finally the 2016 referendum mandate has been fully discharged?

[Thomas]

Brexit was advertised as a hard line project by Remain, not Leave.
They polarised the debate. A mistake which came back to bite them in the arse.

However, it was a referendum not a general election.
There was no winning party elected on a manifesto.

Vote Leave did not decide what trade deals the EU would be willing to offer us.
Nor did anyone sane believe they did.
They were not representatives in a representative democracy.

This was decided by direct democracy. Their votes and opinions were worth no more or less than anyone else's.

Its dubious misrepresentation ( again) by beelbeeb at best baffy.

We all know and have discussed many a time over the last four years brexit was a blank piece of paper with caveats.

It was sold as ( trying) to gain access to the eu single market with the caveats being non of the cons like eu courts , rules , payments , four freedoms etc etc , which now remainers insist wasnt on the cards and so mean they can try and sell some BRINO stitch up.

We know may and the tories originally tried this , and look how that turned out?

Doesnt matte what you say beelbeeb and his anglo remain ilk will never accept democracy. He is simply sitting on the edge of his chair praying his own nations fails to spite brexiters , as borkie says lower than a snakes belly.

I voted remain in 2016 , but by feck what i have seen and read from remainers over the last four years has turned my feckin stomach and made me question any lukewarm sentiment i once had for this eu federal project.

[Thomas]

I trust the people at the sharp end now realising, their livelihoods will be gone in a few weeks.

Who?

Who is saying this?

[Thomas]

You said

I did , its called an opinion and it doesnt make me a brexiter.

Brexit was *never* advertised as a hard-line no compromise project. "no deal"  was explicitly denied by leave including the current PM and many in cabinet before and after the referendum.

just as brexit didnt mean leaving the eu in name only.

After the ref I would have accepted some form of single market membership arrangement - Norway plus plus. It would have been worse than membership but would have reduced the impact in the majority of day to day areas

raking over the old coals yet again.

I vividly recall you being told at great length on the old forum that brexiters wouldnt accept a CU , EU courts , Freedom of movement etc etc .

It doesnt matter what you would accept , you lost time and again over the course of four years , your view of remain or BRINO was in a minority.

If a month we will possibly have the "no deal" you seem to now wish for.

I want democracy to prevail , and if no deal prevails , you , and other hardline remainers have only yourself to blame with the way you  and your elected representatives have treated brexiters over the last four years.

But say, at the last moment a stunning diplomatic coup is pulled and the UK and EU agree to the UK staying in the single market and customs union in a sort of super Norway deal - which was exactly what was offered by leave - would you be happy. The will of the people would have been honoured.  Or would you regard it as some sort of sell out?

Why do you keep asking the same questions time and again but expecting a different reply?

I told you the answer to this before , my personal view is it would be entirely unpalatable to brexiters based on the arguments over the last four years and i would fully expect the tories to be smashed and farage and eurosceptics to in some way be in goverment in the future if the tories sold brexiters out despite all that has happened over the past four years.

It would be an affront to democracy if some sort of BRINO happened .

[Baff]

You said

Brexit was *never* advertised as a hard-line no compromise project. "no deal"  was explicitly denied by leave including the current PM and many in cabinet before and after the referendum.

If somebody promised Disneyland and I wanted a ski holiday, I would be able to accept Disneyland if the majority voted for it *as long as Disneyland was delivered*. Instead we seem to be heading for a Butlins. I'd be particularly pissed off if I had warned that the travel agent promising Disney land was probably going to be unable to deliver and then those that voted for Disney insisted they wanted Butlins all along.

After the ref I would have accepted some form of single market membership arrangement - Norway plus plus. It would have been worse than membership but would have reduced the impact in the majority of day to day areas

That was snatched away pretty early on and the hardest possible brexit pursued.

If a month we will possibly have the "no deal" you seem to now wish for.

But say, at the last moment a stunning diplomatic coup is pulled and the UK and EU agree to the UK staying in the single market and customs union in a sort of super Norway deal - which was exactly what was offered by leave - would you be happy. The will of the people would have been honoured.  Or would you regard it as some sort of sell out?

Brexit was advertised as a hard line project by Remain, not Leave.
They polarised the debate. A mistake which came back to bite them in the arse.

However, it was a referendum not a general election.
There was no winning party elected on a manifesto.

Vote Leave did not decide what trade deals the EU would be willing to offer us.
Nor did anyone sane believe they did.
They were not representatives in a representative democracy.

This was decided by direct democracy. Their votes and opinions were worth no more or less than anyone else's.

[Thomas]

What 11,700 people?
I have had Thomas on ignore for a very long time.
I don't need to poll anyone the local radio, TV and newspapers have been on about it for weeks now, with loads of interviews with people involved.

you have a long history across many forums or running away from people who tell you the truth , but nick isnt on your ignore list , so why not provide him evidence of what you say?

if you can't , we can then dismiss it out of hand and take it as another of your empty headed throw away comments and ignore you on the matter.