Macron v UK + EU

[Thomas]

I didn't communicate clearly.

This seems to be a regularly trotted out excuse from you when someone  can be bothered picking you up over your latest anti brexit insinuation.

I referenced Norway because they are an example of a fishing industry outside the EU fisheries policy (but with extensive agreements on trade).

The employment/boats argument is often made to show how UK fishing has declined (the inference being because of EU membership). I referenced it to illustrate how the fishing industry is unlikely to have been in better shape if we had remained outside the EU.

I havent made that argument , so why tell me?

I simply pointed out that fishermen wanted out the eu and why , and i picked you up on the use of the word decline with regard to norways fishing industry which of course is a nonsense.

I referenced it to illustrate how the fishing industry is unlikely to have been in better shape if we had remained outside the EU.

Your own example of talking about norway , which you at first tried to spin as having a fishing industry in decline , shows yet again what nonsense this is.

Norway are not in the CFP nor the eu , and they are the worlds second largest exporter of seafood so what are you talking about?

As far as i understand it uk fishermen want the ability to do deals which are in their interests free of the eu and its rules. You talk down the uk fishing industry outside the eu without even giving it a chance to see how it does.

There is an argument that the uk fishing may very well have seen the same decline in men boats as most other countries have seen due to technology etc , and quotas , but like norway still thrive outside the EU and CFP which you dismiss out of hand.

I earlier linked to an ft article that had several fishermen (and related industries) who supported leave and have now changed their minds seeing what is coming. Obviously some will not have seen this and others will and still not care

This isnt an example of a mass change in opinion throughout the fishing industry though is it?

You have done similar over the years punting the same tired old argument about people changing their minds with the odd example thrown in , but when push came to shove at election time , this inferred "change of heart over brexit" never transferred to a majority for remain at the ballot box on numerous occassions since 2016 did it?

I havent seen any evidence of it outside of your straw clutching , and similarly i would expect the majority in the fishig industry to vote brexit once more if the chance arose.

So you can see why most of us are sceptical over much of what you say when you have been proven wrong time and again.

[BeElBeeBub]

I have always thought that we have one main advantage over the EU and that was adaptability. The EU is too cumbersome and reacts like trying to turn a tanker. It has always been a straight jacket. Once people here realise that we are no longer subject to the tanker I think we will adapt quite quickly.

I once thought similar

But the UK government (certainly the current one) seems singularity inept.  There barely seems an area they can't eff up.

For all the talk of cutting red tape, leaving the EU has increased the amount of red tape.

We need 50k customs workers we didn't before.  That's more people than the EU commission.

The UK gov seems obsessed with cutting *oversight*. They don't want state aid or tendering rules.  But those rules are there to prevent things like companies started up from a bedroom by a.mimisters friend with zero experience in an area being awarded a hundreds of millions £ contract with no bid process and no scrutiny.

Outside the EU we will see much more public money shoveled towards friends and family of the government.

[papasmurf]

But you insist the media are all liars and not to be trusted,unless of course they agree with you.

I trust the people at the sharp end now realising, their livelihoods will be gone in a few weeks.

[cromwell]

What 11,700 people?
I have had Thomas on ignore for a very long time.
I don't need to poll anyone the local radio, TV and newspapers have been on about it for weeks now, with loads of interviews with people involved.

But you insist the media are all liars and not to be trusted,unless of course they agree with you.

[BeElBeeBub]

how many times over the last year or two have people like deppity dawg and myself told you we voted remain in 2016? I have lost count .

You seem to conflate accepting the rule of democracy as being the same as voting brexit

You said

The uk , both the government and brexiters need to stick to their guns and not cave into any eu demands.

Feck compromise , its another word for brexit in name only which remainers have been trying to sell from day one

Brexit was *never* advertised as a hard-line no compromise project. "no deal"  was explicitly denied by leave including the current PM and many in cabinet before and after the referendum.

If somebody promised Disneyland and I wanted a ski holiday, I would be able to accept Disneyland if the majority voted for it *as long as Disneyland was delivered*. Instead we seem to be heading for a Butlins. I'd be particularly pissed off if I had warned that the travel agent promising Disney land was probably going to be unable to deliver and then those that voted for Disney insisted they wanted Butlins all along.

After the ref I would have accepted some form of single market membership arrangement - Norway plus plus. It would have been worse than membership but would have reduced the impact in the majority of day to day areas

That was snatched away pretty early on and the hardest possible brexit pursued.

If a month we will possibly have the "no deal" you seem to now wish for.

But say, at the last moment a stunning diplomatic coup is pulled and the UK and EU agree to the UK staying in the single market and customs union in a sort of super Norway deal - which was exactly what was offered by leave - would you be happy. The will of the people would have been honoured.  Or would you regard it as some sort of sell out?

[papasmurf]

So during lockdown whilst you've been isolating you've done a poll of all 11,700 people have you?

You've been challenged by Thomas to back it up, it's with you.

What 11,700 people?
I have had Thomas on ignore for a very long time.
I don't need to poll anyone the local radio, TV and newspapers have been on about it for weeks now, with loads of interviews with people involved.

[Nick]

I live here you don't. Many people who voted leave are now regretting it because they now realise the damage it will do. Fishing and farming will be decimated, that has knock on effects to all who live here.

So during lockdown whilst you've been isolating you've done a poll of all 11,700 people have you?

You've been challenged by Thomas to back it up, it's with you.

[BeElBeeBub]

I understand all this  , but

1. this wasnt what you were inferring originally . You now say "you were being unclear"

2.Without digging back through all the thread , i engaged with you if i recall  when you said brexit would hit fishermen hard , i simply pointed out that fishermen in scotland were largely pro leave , and contrary to the more recent remain rubbish of eveyrone changing their minds over brexit ( again) i havent seen any evidence of it and that scottish fishermen are still largely pro leave and the history of why this is( not my argument ...their argument)

You the went on to talk about the decline in norwegian fishing , and i asked what decline? what are you talking about?

I didn't communicate clearly.

I referenced Norway because they are an example of a fishing industry outside the EU fisheries policy (but with extensive agreements on trade).

The employment/boats argument is often made to show how UK fishing has declined (the inference being because of EU membership). I referenced it to illustrate how the fishing industry is unlikely to have been in better shape if we had remained outside the EU.

I earlier linked to an ft article that had several fishermen (and related industries) who supported leave and have now changed their minds seeing what is coming. Obviously some will not have seen this and others will and still not care

[T00ts]

how many times over the last year or two have people like deppity dawg and myself told you we voted remain in 2016? I have lost count .

You seem to conflate accepting the rule of democracy as being the same as voting brexit.

We will indeed see how brexit works out , i expect it to be somewhere between brexiters heaven on earth  and your armageddon fire and flood.

I have indeed taken preparations for january the first , im holding a massive party to celebrate the instalation of democracy after four years.

Once i have sobered up , i then plan to psyche myself up listening to the non stop doom and gloom of how horrible life is for you outside your beloved eu , and crack on with my life in blissfull happiness.

I have always thought that we have one main advantage over the EU and that was adaptability. The EU is too cumbersome and reacts like trying to turn a tanker. It has always been a straight jacket. Once people here realise that we are no longer subject to the tanker I think we will adapt quite quickly.

We looked with envy, once upon a time, to post war Germany. While we were hog-bound with red tape still left over since the war Germany had cast them aside and grasped their freedom and entrepreneurial qualities. Over the years the EU has become hog-bound in almost the same way, made worse by its size and make-up and of course the Euro. If we can now cast aside restrictions as Germany did all those years ago we will more than survive. It will take astute legislation and an entrepreneurial Government. It may take time for most people to throw off the shackles and the feeling of being a comfort blanket that the EU has become to so many. But that comfort has become a suffocation and the threat of political unity is the noose we should avoid. Thank goodness we had the courage to break the shackles.

[Thomas]

You may very well get what you are wishing for in a few weeks and then we'll see how that works out, but Brexiter have been wrong in all their predictions so far, so I'm not putting much faith in their predictions of submit uplands.

I assume you have undertaken no preparations for 1 Jan? Why would you need to, it's going to be awesome right?

how many times over the last year or two have people like deppity dawg and myself told you we voted remain in 2016? I have lost count .

You seem to conflate accepting the rule of democracy as being the same as voting brexit.

We will indeed see how brexit works out , i expect it to be somewhere between brexiters heaven on earth  and your armageddon fire and flood.

I have indeed taken preparations for january the first , im holding a massive party to celebrate the instalation of democracy after four years.

Once i have sobered up , i then plan to psyche myself up listening to the non stop doom and gloom of how horrible life is for you outside your beloved eu , and crack on with my life in blissfull happiness.

[Thomas]

The EU doesn't need to punish the UK. All it has to is look out for it's members interests.

typical beelbeeb. Thats exactly why they will try and punish the uk to stop others wanting to leave is they see the uk doing well.

A thriving uk on the eu doorstep competing with the eu and undercutting all its rules and taxes is their worst nightmare.

If it gave the UK the single market access the UK demanded that would probably break up the single market (and with it the EU).

it would which is why they wont do it as i have said from day one.

The UK will have to adapt to that.

The uk will somehow i dont think you will though.

[Thomas]

Yes you have, and it's probably my fault for being unclear

Let's back up.

Norway is, as you say, a big seafood exporter.

However, if you just looked at things like fishermen numbers, boats and catch you would assume it is in decline because they have all gone down.  However you would be incorrect (as you points out).

Things like declining fish stocks mean the catches have declined because of quotas to prevent overfishing

I understand all this  , but

1. this wasnt what you were inferring originally . You now say "you were being unclear"

2.Without digging back through all the thread , i engaged with you if i recall  when you said brexit would hit fishermen hard , i simply pointed out that fishermen in scotland were largely pro leave , and contrary to the more recent remain rubbish of eveyrone changing their minds over brexit ( again) i havent seen any evidence of it and that scottish fishermen are still largely pro leave and the history of why this is( not my argument ...their argument)

You the went on to talk about the decline in norwegian fishing , and i asked what decline? what are you talking about?

So even successful (non EU) Norway has seen a decline in numbers.

depending on what you are spinning and looking at , but overall as i said the norwegians are growing their aquaculture as my links show.If being the second biggest exporter of fish on the planet is in your opinion a "decline" , then im sure the uk would want to similarly be in decline also.

You seem to be trying to punt the idea that the uk fishermen are moaning about something that has hit everyone , but cant quite grasp everyone accepts things change , fishing techniques adapt and become better , less does more , technology fish quotas etc etc and sustainability all play factors , but you simply cant accept nations like norway and industry like the uk fishing industry despise eu rules and common fisheries , hence why fishermen voted leave and norway prefer not to join the eu and accept the CFP .

The key question, going forward, is will brexit help the UK fishing industry.

No it isnt. From many conversations with brexiters , it has been made apprent many a time financial gain wasnt the motive behind vote leave , so i dont know why you keep trying to punt this idea.

We stood face to face with scottish fishermen back in 2016 and told them they were making a mistake voting for brexit , and why , and they still turned wround and said they dont care , they want no part of the eu nor the common fisheries policy.

You might keep trying to spin fishermen have changed thier minds over brexit , i havent seen any evidence of that fact.

[Sheepy]

Oh I do agree but it would be nice to sock it to them for once if for no other reason than to send a signal that they are not all they crack themselves up to be. Remainers will never be put back in their box just as leavers have complained for the last 4 decades. Even when the EU implodes as it surely will, they will blame Brexit.

Well apparently, it was all a bit of a misunderstanding and people sent the wrong signals, ;-)

[BeElBeeBub]

im not sure the uk is going to get any sort of a good deal , certainly anything that matters toots.

The eu cannot afford ( for its own survival) the uk to leave and thrive , and they  , and remainiacs like beelbeeb etc are going to do everything in their power to rubbish brexit.

The uk , both the government and brexiters need to stick to their guns and not cave into any eu demands.

Feck compromise , its another word for brexit in name only which remainers have been trying to sell from day one.

Get out in three weeks and get on with it.

The EU doesn't need to punish the UK. All it has to is look out for it's members interests.

If it gave the UK the single market access the UK demanded that would probably break up the single market (and with it the EU).

So the EU will never give the UK the access Leavers said they would.

The UK will have to adapt to that.

You may very well get what you are wishing for in a few weeks and then we'll see how that works out, but Brexiter have been wrong in all their predictions so far, so I'm not putting much faith in their predictions of submit uplands.

I assume you have undertaken no preparations for 1 Jan? Why would you need to, it's going to be awesome right?

[BeElBeeBub]

Oh I do agree but it would be nice to sock it to them for once if for no other reason than to send a signal that they are not all they crack themselves up to be. Remainers will never be put back in their box just as leavers have complained for the last 4 decades. Even when the EU implodes as it surely will, they will blame Brexit.

I suspect that if the EU breaks up (something none of us should hope for - a Europe of competing nationalist States has never ended well) it will be the Brexiters claiming it was brexit.